316 réponses à ce sujet

[tywinsregards]

Platform626 wrote...

Well TIM was in contact with a Reaper artifact if anyone read up on that comic. So dormant indoctrination I would say. Also explains his creepy ass eyes.

Then that means shep could be as well  heck he's been in contact with far more reaper tech than anyone plus if that was the case why would the reapers allow shep to screw up all there plans if TIM was under dormant indoctrination? If that was the case they could have stoped shep numerious times at the flick of a switch.

[KingNothing125]

Pretty simple, I think.

Paragon Shep blew up the Collector base: Cerberus wants you dead for betrayal reasons.

Renegade Shep handed over the Collector base: Cerberus wants you dead because they don't need you anymore, now that they have Reaper tech. Plus that whole revenge thing from ME1 where you went around blowing up all their stuff.

[Payne by name]

Because it's a quick and easy way to provide plenty of human form 'bad guys' to shoot.

This way the 'shooters' can cut their teeth on gunning down endless fodder until they throw in some truly bad guys in the final third of the game.

[Dean_the_Young]

Platform626 wrote...

Well TIM was in contact with a Reaper artifact if anyone read up on that comic. So dormant indoctrination I would say. Also explains his creepy ass eyes.

Except that there is no such thing to date as 'dormant' indoctrination. You are indoctrinated, or you are not. It's like sex: there's a word for someone who has done everything but have intercourse, and that word is 'virgin.' There are people who are indoctrinated and quiet about it, and people who are indoctrinated and obvious about it, but there have been no people or any accounts of people who have spontaniously re-activated indoctrination after any delayed period.


Moreover, indoctrination has a timelimit: one that's measured in monthes to possibly a hanful of years. TIM has been active for decades after his exposure, and never shown any particular sign of indoctrination.

[1upD]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Platform626 wrote...

Well TIM was in contact with a Reaper artifact if anyone read up on that comic. So dormant indoctrination I would say. Also explains his creepy ass eyes.

Except that there is no such thing to date as 'dormant' indoctrination. You are indoctrinated, or you are not. It's like sex: there's a word for someone who has done everything but have intercourse, and that word is 'virgin.' There are people who are indoctrinated and quiet about it, and people who are indoctrinated and obvious about it, but there have been no people or any accounts of people who have spontaniously re-activated indoctrination after any delayed period.


Moreover, indoctrination has a timelimit: one that's measured in monthes to possibly a hanful of years. TIM has been active for decades after his exposure, and never shown any particular sign of indoctrination.

I don't understand where you're getting this from.  There IS partial Indoctrination, from what I could see in Mass Effect.  Saren seemed to be fighthing his Indoctrination in the dialogue on Virmire- that's why Sovereign had to implant him.  Benezia was able to temporarily revert to her own self, showing the Indoctrination wasn't complete.  Saren even said that complete Indoctrination weakened the mind of the slave, so Sovereign didn't fully Indoctrinate him.

*Retribution Spoilers*

When Grayson was Indoctrinated, it was clearly a long process.  He retained his identity for a long time while he was in captivity.

[Bailyn242]

Moiaussi wrote...

Some sort of counter to indoctrination is pretty much essential to winning this anyway, so we might have an opportunity to bring Cerberus in from the cold. Think of the plausable deniability it would given them?

I wasn't thinking that he had to leave the station to end up indoctrinated. If indoctrination is something that can be spread by getting some kind of device on to the station then a partially indoctrinated lackey could potentially bring it to the station without Cerberus knowing.

[Bailyn242]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes, but for TIM we're talking twenty years since he had indirect contact with the artifact.

Albeit, I'll concede that the indoctrination theory is a sound one.

However that doesn't mean it is any less of a stupid turn of events for the story to take.

Well after the first Novel it became apparent that Saren had Sovereign at the end of the novel. That was decades before Shepard came along and he was still only partially indoctrinated. Tim on the other hand spent far less time under the influence of the reaper device from Evolution and wasn't around Reaper tech for years until the events of ME1.

We have seen evidence that the Reapers are willing to play the long game, I could see them putting Sleepers into play in every organization or government that they are aware of and can get to if possible. They've had 2+ years since they made their presence known. Heck, all through ME2 I was asking myself could indoctrination be the real reason the Council and Alliance government refuse to acknowledge the Reapers even in private meetings?

[Moiaussi]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Well after the first Novel it became apparent that Saren had Sovereign at the end of the novel. That was decades before Shepard came along and he was still only partially indoctrinated. Tim on the other hand spent far less time under the influence of the reaper device from Evolution and wasn't around Reaper tech for years until the events of ME1.

We have seen evidence that the Reapers are willing to play the long game, I could see them putting Sleepers into play in every organization or government that they are aware of and can get to if possible. They've had 2+ years since they made their presence known. Heck, all through ME2 I was asking myself could indoctrination be the real reason the Council and Alliance government refuse to acknowledge the Reapers even in private meetings?

Sovereign was not fully indoctrinating Saren to allow him to retain competence longer. The implication is that there are different levels of effect. Vigil suggested that indoctrinated people can function as sleeper agents too, seeming normal until they act.

It seems a relatively subtle and complex process.

[Moiaussi]

Oop double post

Modifié par Moiaussi, 13 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[BounceDK]

I'm sure the 500th useless DLC will tell us.
Mass Effect 3: The Ending DLC - Purchase the ending for Mass Effect 3 for only $10.

Modifié par BounceDK, 15 septembre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Lapis Lazuli]

Because the threat of necromancy is too great for mods to handle alone.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...ld do nothing at all, and Shepard would have to go back to Cerberus to get something done about it anyway.)

So something better happen during ME3 that breaks my Shepard from Cerberus. There's no other GOOD explanation. Indoctrination just doesn't work here. It's forced, and there's not really a good reason for it. The base can't have indoctrination tech, because it's Collector, not Reaper made. If it WERE able to indoctrinate people, why wasn't Shepard and his/her team indoctrinated?

It doesn't make sense. Something has to happen in ME3.

The reason Shepard and his crew aren't indoctrinated would be because they weren't on it long enough.  Why werent they indoctrinaed aboard the Reaper getting the IFF? They weren't abord long enough.  As for it not being REaper tech, yes it is... The Collectors are nothing but PUPPETS for the REapers... Collector and Reaper tech is the same thing.  Plus, TIM found a Reaper artifact years ago... who knows what subtle things it's made him do over the years?   Sure, Shepard survived and stopped the Reapers... but what if... WHAT IF... Every time TIM sent Shepard into danger, it was a TRAP? Just Shepard was too damn good to fall in the traps and kept escaping?   As for resurrecting him, well it's known the Reapers want Shepard.  It's obvious if you listen to Harbinger hes got a personal vendetta against humanity and Shepard specficially... So, who's to say TIM, being indoctrinated, didn't resurrect Shepard to send him to the Reapers?  After all, if TIM is only partially indoctrinated he might think he's working toward his own ends, but it might be futile in the end he's indoctrinated.

Just like with Saren.  Saren thought he was right, was saving the galaxy.  But, in the end you can charm him into kiling himself by convincing him that he never thought that... even from the beginning he was being influenced by Soveriegn and he has to let Shepard stop them.  He agrees, and kills himself after basically telling Shepard to keep up the good fight.

[capn233]

I think the logical people get hung up on the idea that TIM would go through the trouble and expense of putting Shepard together to fight the Reapers and then send him into traps in order to get him killed. Additionally, Cerberus had to steal Shepard from the Shadow Broker's people, who were working with the Collectors, who in turn work for Harbinger. It just makes a mess of the story to think that TIM and Cerberus were really working with the Reapers by stealing Shepard from agents of the Reapers in order to give him back to agents of the Reapers.

Sure he sends you into traps, but I do not think he was lying when he said he was confident in him making it out.

You are right that Saren thought he could prove the worth of organics. He certainly wasn't proving that by opposing the Reapers, but rather by helping Sovereign.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

capn233 wrote...

I think the logical people get hung up on the idea that TIM would go through the trouble and expense of putting Shepard together to fight the Reapers and then send him into traps in order to get him killed. Additionally, Cerberus had to steal Shepard from the Shadow Broker's people, who were working with the Collectors, who in turn work for Harbinger. It just makes a mess of the story to think that TIM and Cerberus were really working with the Reapers by stealing Shepard from agents of the Reapers in order to give him back to agents of the Reapers.

Sure he sends you into traps, but I do not think he was lying when he said he was confident in him making it out.

You are right that Saren thought he could prove the worth of organics. He certainly wasn't proving that by opposing the Reapers, but rather by helping Sovereign.

Right, I could be too logical, but indoctrination is subtle.  Sure, he might have been working against the Reapers, but still that little voice in the back of his head is like "Send Shepard to the shut down Collector ship... " and he thinks of it as a sound tactical choice and it IS... but...

Overal we'll see in the ME3 if and how TIM turns out to be indoctrinated or if he's like "Shepard, my entire organization has gone rouge, help me out!"

[capn233]

Unfortunately I think Evolution might be setting it up so that TIM's experience right after the First Contact War ends up turning him "to the dark side." We will see what happens when the game comes out.

However, it clearly didn't "kick in" until after Mass Effect 2, or even Retribution for that matter.