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Why is Cerberus an enemy now?


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#126
Siansonea

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Well, the fact is a lot of people like to follow the "shadowy" types because they're badassss!!!! These are people who think things like justice, loyalty, law, etc., are just uncool dumb stuff that isn't badassss. People that believe that the rules don't apply to them, because they know what's best for the universe/galaxy/planet/country/town/apartment/room better than uncool rule followers with zero badasssssness.

People like TIM sometimes do "the right thing", or a right thing, but even in TIM's case, he went about it in as d¡ckish a way as possible. Luring the Collectors to Horizon ("Sucks to be you, Lilith, but I'm a badasssss, see, I'm even smoking cigarettes") and letting Shepard walk into the Collector's trap after the turian distress call ("I knew you could handle it Shepard" *puff* *puff*), TIM does everything in his power to let everyone know he's calling the shots, and that he doesn't care who is put at risk. Of course, TIM won't put HIMSELF at risk in any way, he's so afraid to even be in the same room with Shepard that he communicates through holograms.

And that's the common theme with people like this, they're ultimately cowards. Whereas Shepard goes to superhuman lengths to stop the Reapers and the Collectors, people like TIM just sit around smoking, drinking, and hiding. Gutless.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 juin 2011 - 01:13 .


#127
Seboist

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Siansonea II wrote...

Well, the fact is a lot of people like to follow the "shadowy" types because they're badassss!!!! These are people who think things like justice, loyalty, law, etc., are just uncool dumb stuff that isn't badassss. People that believe that the rules don't apply to them, because they know what's best for the universe/galaxy/planet/country/town/apartment/room better than uncool rule followers with zero badasssssness.

People like TIM sometimes do "the right thing", or a right thing, but even in TIM's case, he went about it in as d¡ckish a way as possible. Luring the Collectors to Horizon ("Sucks to be you, Lilith, but I'm a badasssss, see, I'm even smoking cigarettes") and letting Shepard walk into the Collector's trap after the turian distress call ("I knew you could handle it Shepard" *puff* *puff*), TIM does everything in his power to let everyone know he's calling the shots, and that he doesn't care who is put at risk. Of course, TIM won't put HIMSELF at risk in any way, he's so afraid to even be in the same room with Shepard that he communicates through holograms.

And that's the common theme with people like this, they're ultimately cowards. Whereas Shepard goes to superhuman lengths to stop the Reapers and the Collectors, people like TIM just sit around smoking, drinking, and hiding. Gutless.


TIM brought back someone from the dead and saved humanity from the Collectors, have you?

#128
1upD

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 I think the events of Arrival were sort of a hint of what could happen to Cerberus and other groups for Mass Effect 3.  Even those who are most dedicated to stopping the Reapers could eventually join them.  In some ways, maybe they're even more likely. Obsession with stopping the Reapers can very quickly become obsession with the Reapers. 

#129
Bluko

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T.I.M. knew about the Collectors and the Collector Base well before-hand. Not sure how he does (that remains a mystery to be solved). He knew the Collectors were targeting Humans, that they only had one ship or a few ships, and that they used a small space station. He also knew they were working for the Reapers. How exactly did he even come to suspect that?

I mean how else could the "Suicide Mission" have worked? We know the Normandy's stealth systems don't do anything against the Collectors. So sending the Normandy in for recon was never the purpose. So if T.I.M. was as clueless as he says why would he send just Shepard and a team of specialists? A team of specialists wouldn't do squat against an armada of Collector Ships or if there was a Collector Homeworld. 

No, it seems pretty clear T.I.M. knew or made a very good guess that the Collectors only have one vessel and they operate from sort of space station. The only instance it becomes clear that a Space Station could be all the Collectors really have is when we learn they are located in the Galactic core which as Jacob notes is very volatile due to the number of stars and black-holes. (I also suspect T.I.M. used the Reaper IFF before and actually scouted out Collector Space with a series of Probes. He probably lost the IFF and the ability to replicate it when the Derelict Reaper crew got indoctrinated.)

T.I.M. not only lied to Shepard (and not for the first time either), but also used Shepard for his own purporses. If T.I.M. really wanted to stop the Collectors why didn't he give Shepard some sort of large ordance like a nuke to destroy their base outright? Oh that's right! He wanted the Collector Base intact all along. He wasn't interested in saving "Humanity" or saving the Colonists from further attacks. He just wanted the technology. I mean he basically setup Horizon. And there's the problem. Maybe T.I.M. thinks he's saving humanity or leading us to a better future or whatever, but at the same time he sure has no problem killing his own kind if it means he might get access to great power.

Also the game itself make it abundantly clear saving the Collector Base is taking a big risk. If you talk to your Squadmates right after the mission, each and everyone of them will question your judgement about keeping the base. So they must all be exceptionally close-minded, even Jacob and Miranda who are Cerberus operatives themselves.

Cerberus is not Shepard's friend or ally. Shepard is just one of the many assests T.I.M. has at his disposal. If Shepard no longer serves T.I.M. any use or Shepard becomes too great a liability he will get rid of him. T.I.M. did not bring Shepard back to destroy or stop the Reapers, he only brought Shepard back to help in that endeavor. The Normandy SR2 itself is just as instrumental in stopping the Reapers and is probably more important to T.I.M. then Shepard is. Look if you've seen this game ending it's rather clear what T.I.M. values the most.

1) Collector Base
2) Normandy SR2
3) Shepard

Regardless of whether you save or destroy the Base T.I.M. wants his stuff back. He's not exactly the sharing kind if you hadn't noticed and the only reason he gives Shepard so much leeway is to dupe Shepard into buying his act that he wants to help. Apparently it also managed to fool some players as well. Say what you will about the plot, the writers sure have a knack for creating believable characters. Come ME3 The Illusive Man will likely be regarded as one of the better "bad guys" to be created in a video game series.

#130
Siansonea

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Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, the fact is a lot of people like to follow the "shadowy" types because they're badassss!!!! These are people who think things like justice, loyalty, law, etc., are just uncool dumb stuff that isn't badassss. People that believe that the rules don't apply to them, because they know what's best for the universe/galaxy/planet/country/town/apartment/room better than uncool rule followers with zero badasssssness.

People like TIM sometimes do "the right thing", or a right thing, but even in TIM's case, he went about it in as d¡ckish a way as possible. Luring the Collectors to Horizon ("Sucks to be you, Lilith, but I'm a badasssss, see, I'm even smoking cigarettes") and letting Shepard walk into the Collector's trap after the turian distress call ("I knew you could handle it Shepard" *puff* *puff*), TIM does everything in his power to let everyone know he's calling the shots, and that he doesn't care who is put at risk. Of course, TIM won't put HIMSELF at risk in any way, he's so afraid to even be in the same room with Shepard that he communicates through holograms.

And that's the common theme with people like this, they're ultimately cowards. Whereas Shepard goes to superhuman lengths to stop the Reapers and the Collectors, people like TIM just sit around smoking, drinking, and hiding. Gutless.


TIM brought back someone from the dead and saved humanity from the Collectors, have you?


Pffft. Yeah, I sure did.

Really, we're comparing our accomplishments to those of video game characters now? That's what passes for logic these days? Roight.:huh:

Like I said, TIM did some good deeds, but that doesn't make him a good person, and it certainly doesn't erase all the heinous deeds he committed prior to that. And we don't yet know what the repurcussions of TIMs actions will be in the next game, so we might want to hold off on any ticker-tape parades for Ol' Silicon Eyes until we have all the facts about TIM's true motives behind resurrecting (cloning?) Shepard and stopping the Collectors.

#131
Dave of Canada

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kylecouch wrote...

Except the Pro Cerberus/ Renegade people tend to cry alot louder about things then paragoners


Demanding for equality in content =/= crying.

#132
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Reasoning:

- Reapers will reap turians, asari, salarians, krogan, quarians, and geth.

- Those aliens will severely damage the reapers while being reaped, thus leaving them vulnerable.

- Humanity will take advantage of that vulnerability and finish the job those aliens so bravely started.

- WIN! The advancement and preservation of humanity (Cerberus motto) is guaranteed forever and ever.

- No, no, wait. What's happening? Shepard is organizing those aliens. If they all unite and concentrate on just a few reapers at a time, they might have a chance, like Nelson in Trafalgar. The rest of the reapers will be too far from the fight to really do damage, so by the time they reach the battle, their numbers will be greatly reduced. Heavy risk...but...you know how it goes.

- Stop Shepard! She's ruining everything!

Modifié par Nyoka, 05 juin 2011 - 01:47 .


#133
Seboist

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Siansonea II wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, the fact is a lot of people like to follow the "shadowy" types because they're badassss!!!! These are people who think things like justice, loyalty, law, etc., are just uncool dumb stuff that isn't badassss. People that believe that the rules don't apply to them, because they know what's best for the universe/galaxy/planet/country/town/apartment/room better than uncool rule followers with zero badasssssness.

People like TIM sometimes do "the right thing", or a right thing, but even in TIM's case, he went about it in as d¡ckish a way as possible. Luring the Collectors to Horizon ("Sucks to be you, Lilith, but I'm a badasssss, see, I'm even smoking cigarettes") and letting Shepard walk into the Collector's trap after the turian distress call ("I knew you could handle it Shepard" *puff* *puff*), TIM does everything in his power to let everyone know he's calling the shots, and that he doesn't care who is put at risk. Of course, TIM won't put HIMSELF at risk in any way, he's so afraid to even be in the same room with Shepard that he communicates through holograms.

And that's the common theme with people like this, they're ultimately cowards. Whereas Shepard goes to superhuman lengths to stop the Reapers and the Collectors, people like TIM just sit around smoking, drinking, and hiding. Gutless.


TIM brought back someone from the dead and saved humanity from the Collectors, have you?


Pffft. Yeah, I sure did.

Really, we're comparing our accomplishments to those of video game characters now? That's what passes for logic these days? Roight.:huh:

Like I said, TIM did some good deeds, but that doesn't make him a good person, and it certainly doesn't erase all the heinous deeds he committed prior to that. And we don't yet know what the repurcussions of TIMs actions will be in the next game, so we might want to hold off on any ticker-tape parades for Ol' Silicon Eyes until we have all the facts about TIM's true motives behind resurrecting (cloning?) Shepard and stopping the Collectors.


TIM is a selfless man who turned his back on a life of calm and luxury so he could fight for the preservation and survival of mankind. He has the right idea and history will vindicate him.

#134
vanslyke85

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Oh I'll vindicate him alright...with a bullet in his head

#135
Siansonea

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Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, the fact is a lot of people like to follow the "shadowy" types because they're badassss!!!! These are people who think things like justice, loyalty, law, etc., are just uncool dumb stuff that isn't badassss. People that believe that the rules don't apply to them, because they know what's best for the universe/galaxy/planet/country/town/apartment/room better than uncool rule followers with zero badasssssness.

People like TIM sometimes do "the right thing", or a right thing, but even in TIM's case, he went about it in as d¡ckish a way as possible. Luring the Collectors to Horizon ("Sucks to be you, Lilith, but I'm a badasssss, see, I'm even smoking cigarettes") and letting Shepard walk into the Collector's trap after the turian distress call ("I knew you could handle it Shepard" *puff* *puff*), TIM does everything in his power to let everyone know he's calling the shots, and that he doesn't care who is put at risk. Of course, TIM won't put HIMSELF at risk in any way, he's so afraid to even be in the same room with Shepard that he communicates through holograms.

And that's the common theme with people like this, they're ultimately cowards. Whereas Shepard goes to superhuman lengths to stop the Reapers and the Collectors, people like TIM just sit around smoking, drinking, and hiding. Gutless.


TIM brought back someone from the dead and saved humanity from the Collectors, have you?


Pffft. Yeah, I sure did.

Really, we're comparing our accomplishments to those of video game characters now? That's what passes for logic these days? Roight.:huh:

Like I said, TIM did some good deeds, but that doesn't make him a good person, and it certainly doesn't erase all the heinous deeds he committed prior to that. And we don't yet know what the repurcussions of TIMs actions will be in the next game, so we might want to hold off on any ticker-tape parades for Ol' Silicon Eyes until we have all the facts about TIM's true motives behind resurrecting (cloning?) Shepard and stopping the Collectors.


TIM is a selfless man who turned his back on a life of calm and luxury so he could fight for the preservation and survival of mankind. He has the right idea and history will vindicate him.


*laughs uncontrollably for many minutes* :lol:

#136
Bluko

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Dave of Canada wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Except the Pro Cerberus/ Renegade people tend to cry alot louder about things then paragoners


Demanding for equality in content =/= crying.


It is equal.

No one has Cerberus as an ally Paragon or Renegade. Just like niether the original Council or new Council helps Shepard. Why do you assume Renegade Shepard can't or won't have allies yet? Maybe the Krogan won't aid a sissy appeaser Paragon Shepard that grovels with the Council. Maybe the Asari won't help a belligerent Renegade Shepard that would sacrifice the Council. You can't assume Paragon Shepard will have any more Allies then say Renegade Shepard simply because they've been "nicer".

Or maybe regardless of your alignment Shepard can find ways to convince the other races to help out.

Now you may be screwed if you've been trying to play Human-Supremacist Shepard (that's not what Renegade Shepard is). Although considering you're closest allies have always been aliens I'm not sure where one would get this idea to begin with. Shepard has and always will work with Aliens. Paragon does it by being couteous and diplomatic. Renegade does it by being upfront and blunt.

Alhough the idea Cerberus could be a war ally is rather silly to begin with since they don't have much of a Fleet. At best all they could provide is prototype weapons and armor, which isn't enough to stop the Reapers anyways since you'll still need "boots on the ground" as they say.

#137
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Nyoka wrote...

Reasoning:

- Reapers will reap turians, asari, salarians, krogan, quarians, and geth.

- Those aliens will severely damage the reapers while being reaped, thus leaving them vulnerable.

- Humanity will take advantage of that vulnerability and finish the job those aliens so bravely started.

- WIN! The advancement and preservation of humanity (Cerberus motto) is guaranteed forever and ever.

- No, no, wait. What's happening? Shepard is organizing those aliens. If they all unite and concentrate on just a few reapers at a time, they might have a chance, like Nelson in Trafalgar. The rest of the reapers will be too far from the fight to really do damage, so by the time they reach the battle, their numbers will be greatly reduced. Heavy risk...but...you know how it goes.

- Stop Shepard! She's ruining everything!


Except that doesn't make sense. In ME2 TIM's mission reports indicate he is very aware that the aliens will be necessary to win the war. He even shows concern about the Migrant Fleet being embroiled in a war with the geth because he wants their help. He goes so far as to send his own scouts to monitor geth activity after Haestrom to ensure that they don't retaliate against the Migrant Fleet.

#138
Eshaye

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Seboist wrote...

TIM is a selfless man who turned his back on a life of calm and luxury so he could fight for the preservation and survival of mankind. He has the right idea and history will vindicate him.


Allrighty there Miranda... *pat* *pat*  

As I was saying, he started off a good guy putting his butt on the line on Shanxi to defend his people against Turians. HOWEVER the man he used to be has changed. While he has convinced himself that his goals have not only his methods, that's never actually true in reality. That's the tragedy of people like TIM they don't realize just how far into corruption they've gone until the very end of their lives. 

FYI I really love the Illusive Man, he's your typical magnificent bastard and I'm eating that up. :devil:

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard

Modifié par Eshaye, 05 juin 2011 - 02:18 .


#139
Mr. Gogeta34

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TIM is who he is. Theory 1: If you were Cerberus and the Reapers took over your home world with a force you can't cope with... What would you do to buy time for Humanity and prevent a massacre?

#140
ISpeakTheTruth

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Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

 All TIM ever wanted was to have the Collector Base sure to help stop the Reapers but he really wanted it so he could force his views onto the galaxy to put himself as a god.


[citation needed]

There is no indication he even knew of the existence of the base before Shepard did. Once Shepard was on the scene he saw the chance to capitalize on their victory. A very reasonable thing.


Now that's just silly. The Omega 4 Relay is a legend known that only Collectors can navigate it. That would logically tell anyone that there'd be a base beyond it and having heard tales of Collectors giving tech to people for specimens would only make a power mad person like him salivate all over the place.

If you doubt TIM's secondary if not primary goal was to take the Collector Tech for himself than I'd say you don't know that guy very well.

#141
kaiki01

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Saphra Deden wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

No they don't. Stop confusing villain with hero. Please present your definition for hero & villain. They seem to deviate from the standard definitions.


Hero: someone who upholds my ideals and beliefs in spite of any and all opposition.


=\\ that is not what a hero is. You are defining a zealot.

define:zealot

A person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals

#142
Reapinger

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Cause Cerberus is evil lulz

#143
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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kaiki01 wrote...

= that is not what a hero is. You are defining a zealot.

define:zealot

A person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals




One man's zealot is another man's hero.

#144
Moiaussi

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Seboist wrote...

TIM never knew the Collector base could be captured intact until the very end when EDI informed him.


That is not a given. You are assuming EDI isn't on a need to know basis also. EDI wasn't warned in advance about the Collector ship being a trap either (that or she both lied and revealed the lie).

#145
Moiaussi

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Seboist wrote...

TIM brought back someone from the dead and saved humanity from the Collectors, have you?


When I become a fictional character, I'll make TIM look pathetic and ineffectual by comparason, just you wait!

And other than bringing Shepard back from the dead, TIM didn't stop the Collectors. He helped do so but hardly did so alone.

#146
HappyHappyJoyJoy

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laecraft wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

for the lulz


[The Illusive Man approaches the hologram of a stunned Shepard, his customary tune playing as he retains that expressionless face]

SHEPARD: "We're out here fighting a desperate war for survival and you're switching sides? Why the hell are you doing this?"

ILLUSIVE MAN: "For the lulz."


I laughed so hard at this. Truly, when you think about this in-game, it makes no sense whatsoever. And you just took that out of my dream. Whatever the reason for Cerberus hunting Shepard, I want Shepard to be able to confront TIM about it. I want to hear some explanation!


SHEPARD:  "Why?  Why did you betray me?  The Reapers are HERE and now I have to fight you!  Tell me why you are doing this!"

The Illusive Man puts out a cigarette in an ashtray and picks up a glass of Scotch.

ILLUSIVE MAN:  "Because." 

Modifié par HappyHappyJoyJoy, 05 juin 2011 - 07:34 .


#147
Fayfel

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The Reapers intend to upload humanity into an immortal machine construct. Does an immortal, all powerful humanity not fit with the goals of cerberus?

#148
Dave of Canada

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Amakiir wrote...

The Reapers intend to upload humanity into an immortal machine construct. Does an immortal, all powerful humanity not fit with the goals of cerberus?


No, it doesn't.

#149
khordlambert

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Saphra Deden wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

= that is not what a hero is. You are defining a zealot.

define:zealot

A person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals




One man's zealot is another man's hero.


Yeahhh, TIM's not a hero by ANY real definition of the word. In the modern version a hero is essentally someone who goes around righting wrongs or at the least punishing the guilty. TIM's little science projects pretty much bars him there.

The more classical definition would be a guy who goes around doing Bad**** stuff like killing monsters or slaughtering a kingdom. (Think Kratos from God of War.) TIM doesn't do that. He pays other people to do that instead so he doesn't have to leave his comfy chair.

Yes, by that second definition, that psychopath Kai Leng and even Saren are more heroic than TIM.

At best TIM is a Type 5 Anti-Hero, in that the things he does benifits others by sheer coincidence. At BEST. And even then we don't know because most of our information about Cerberus' goals comes from TIM himself who is most likely just telling you what you want to hear.

Modifié par khordlambert, 05 juin 2011 - 08:43 .


#150
Mr. Gogeta34

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a deal to spare the earth (or atleast buy time) in exchange for hunting Shepard is something I could see TIM doing