215 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

The claymore is the only shotgun with one shot before you have to reload, so perhaps one of the others would be more suited to you.

[Weiser_Cain]

At this point, even if I thought you were giving me advice in good faith I wouldn't accept it, and anyway that isn't the point of the thread.

[Sesshomaru47]

They have enough, if you want more then be an adept.

[Dyorgarel Inkin]

I want my claymore, my charge and my throw, that's it. I don't care about shockwave.

[ramnozack]

Its late so ima keep it short.
Give vanguards warp and throw

[Leonia]

lazuli wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I use shockwave and slam a LOT, especially with husks (once their armour is stripped on insanity, of course) when my charge is on cooldown.

ME2 has global cooldowns, which means that when "charge is on cooldown" so are the rest of your powers.  Maybe ME3 will do a better job of making powers besides your signature power appealing.

To get back on topic, I think Vanguards have enough biotic abilities.  They can Charge, they can use Shockwave, and they have Pull.  If builds get larger in ME3, then I wouldn't mind more.

Lol, yeah.. been playing mostly ME1 lately and was getting my game mechanics confused! But yeah, I think the vanguard in ME2 is fairly balanced as it is. 

[magnuskn]

CajNatalie wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

I also could live with less ammo types and more powers, be they now soldier-y or biotic.

I guess I'll have to ask, why would one prefer Shockwave over Pull?

Leveling Pull up only increases its duration.
No use to me since I can pick floaters off easy (they take double damage while flailing around in the air).
This Warp Bomb stuff is bull... if someone has warp available, and the floater is surrounded by enemies or there's nothing much else around that will need warping soon, then sure, bombs away for the Area of Effect, but the idea is that you Pull someone to get a clear shot with double damage - no need to waste a warp on one helpless mook. Falling back to the 'warp bomb everything' idea is a common mistake.
Eventually you can spend 10 points for Pull Field. This is very nice, as it can mean you pick 2, or if you're lucky, 3 enemies up... but on Insanity this will rarely happen and you'll just stagger the guy next to the floater.
I saw no need to get Pull Field because of this, and stuck to Level 1 Pull purely for ripping mooks out of cover and gunning them in the ass/face while they flail with a quick shot from the Needler (I don't use the Mattock; different story; don't ask).

With Shockwave upgraded to Improved, not only do you have the ultimate Husk exterminater, you have a viable way of hitting every single enemy on the field at once in any difficulty. The casting animation may be a little long, but that can be overcome by finding some tall cover, not sticking to it, and sidestepping to hit the cast and then quickly hiding while you're swinging your arm... the Shockwave will emerge from where you started casting and you were only exposed for a tiny split second. On Insanity by doing this I could keep my shields safe.
On Hardcore/Insanity, you may be saying 'but they only stagger!' ...yeah, but (usually) EVERY SINGLE ENEMY is staggering (much better than that one maybe two staggering enemies next to the guy you just used Pull Field on). Suddenly nobody's shooting your way, and they're all out of cover, perfect for you to co-ordinate teammate powers and shred the enemy of your choice (I found it useful in Object Rho for keeping one or two of the pyros steady so I could blow their shields out and pop their tanks, while their buddies were reeling and unable to provide cover fire).
Staggerfail may be disappointing, but when everybody staggerfails, it's not fail anymore.
...also, it goes without saying that everyone you blew the protections off of will go flying when you use Improved Shockwave... every one of them.

Thanks, that made a lot of sense.

[Trinity66]

ramnozack wrote...

Its late so ima keep it short.
Give vanguards warp and throw

Yes.

[Uzun]

I think vanguard should have all biotic powers (except for singularity) but change stuff like cooldown, damage etc from adept's powers so, both classes have access to those powers but adept uses them better and more efficiently.

[Bozorgmehr]

ramnozack wrote...
Give vanguards warp and throw

Can you explain what you need Warp and Throw for? Vanguards are not hide-behind-cover-casters; Vanguards are equipped with tools to demolish the enemy up close and personal. That's their trade mark. If you want to go casting, play Adept.

It's also advisable to stop moaning about Pull and Shockwave, both of which are excellent powers. Of course, there are a lot of ignorant players who don't know nor try to use those powers effectively - that's their problem, not something related to Pull and Shockwave. Those moaners are easy to spot btw; the ones claiming Shockwave is good below HC and suck above (a ridiculous argument considering enemies have more health on Insanity than on Veteran - if powers suck on Insanity they suck on all other difficulty levels as well - in fact, a lot harder).

If you want to use Throw and Warp, play Sentinel, or better, Adept. Whining about stuff you don't have is pathetic, it's like arguing I like AI Hacking, why can't I have this on my Soldier? - If you want to Hack, play a tech class. That's what classes are for. If you don't like the class system, make a topic about that instead of trying to ruin the entire system only because you either don't know or like the way of the Vanguard.

[CajNatalie]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Can you explain what you need Warp and Throw for? Vanguards are not hide-behind-cover-casters; Vanguards are equipped with tools to demolish the enemy up close and personal. That's their trade mark. If you want to go casting, play Adept.

It's also advisable to stop moaning about Pull and Shockwave, both of which are excellent powers. Of course, there are a lot of ignorant players who don't know nor try to use those powers effectively - that's their problem, not something related to Pull and Shockwave. Those moaners are easy to spot btw; the ones claiming Shockwave is good below HC and suck above (a ridiculous argument considering enemies have more health on Insanity than on Veteran - if powers suck on Insanity they suck on all other difficulty levels as well - in fact, a lot harder).

If you want to use Throw and Warp, play Sentinel, or better, Adept. Whining about stuff you don't have is pathetic, it's like arguing I like AI Hacking, why can't I have this on my Soldier? - If you want to Hack, play a tech class. That's what classes are for. If you don't like the class system, make a topic about that instead of trying to ruin the entire system only because you either don't know or like the way of the Vanguard.

Thanks for saying this.
I'm tired of people moaning about lack of throw and warp and had pretty much resigned myself to not bothering to argue because I knew I wouldn't get anywhere.
Hopefully your post will help at least make people think. Hell, your arguments are the reason I decided to give biotics more of a chance than my initial assumptions had lead me to do.

You're pretty much right about how biotics end up surprisingly more useful on Insanity due to higher HP. I have one or two issues with the protection system, but I can't deny how much more useful biotics were on my Insanity run.
Particularly the so-called useless biotics a Vanguard is given.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 05 juin 2011 - 10:51 .

[ramnozack]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ramnozack wrote...
Give vanguards warp and throw

Can you explain what you need Warp and Throw for? Vanguards are not hide-behind-cover-casters; Vanguards are equipped with tools to demolish the enemy up close and personal. That's their trade mark. If you want to go casting, play Adept.

It's also advisable to stop moaning about Pull and Shockwave, both of which are excellent powers. Of course, there are a lot of ignorant players who don't know nor try to use those powers effectively - that's their problem, not something related to Pull and Shockwave. Those moaners are easy to spot btw; the ones claiming Shockwave is good below HC and suck above (a ridiculous argument considering enemies have more health on Insanity than on Veteran - if powers suck on Insanity they suck on all other difficulty levels as well - in fact, a lot harder).

If you want to use Throw and Warp, play Sentinel, or better, Adept. Whining about stuff you don't have is pathetic, it's like arguing I like AI Hacking, why can't I have this on my Soldier? - If you want to Hack, play a tech class. That's what classes are for. If you don't like the class system, make a topic about that instead of trying to ruin the entire system only because you either don't know or like the way of the Vanguard.

Again IF reave is not in ME 3 warp is simply for shredding defenses and killing at range. thats explained. now for throw. I THINK they are taking away powers block shields in ME 3 so area throw would give us a nice knockdown like con shot only better and gives us a lil more ranged capabilities. explained

They should put EVERY class's signature ability on a seperate cd ( vanguard charge sentinel tech armor adept singularity etc etc). So we could use other abilities more often and feel more like a Solider/adept hybrid.

and who said i was dissing shockwave and pull? i use both alot in my gameplay style. If your not gonna post anything useful on my thread other then useless garbage like saying that if i want throw a biotic ability which my vanguard shep had in ME 1 but is now mysteriously gone then please get out. We dont need people like you holding back the vanguard class.

Also your "argument" about solider whining about not being able to use ai hacking. That wouldn't make sense obviously for solider. But being able to perform a basic biotic throw and use warp like every other vanguard in this game is a stretch aint it?  Make a good argument other then whining about me wanting 2 more powers for vanguard or just get out.

Man I keep reading your post and finding more and more flaws......also you basically said if powers suck on HC+ then they suck on VET -.......u even play ME 2? EVERY biotic is better on VET - because you dont need to strip defenses first.
In vet if i see a enemy behind cover i can just pull him from the start and pop a shell in his head. If on insanity i would just wait for him to pop his head out so i could CHARGE him cuz none of my other abilities would be nearly effective. Pull out pull in my explanation and put shockwave you have the same thing.

Modifié par ramnozack, 05 juin 2011 - 01:23 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Shotguns are great for shredding defenses.

IDK about Warp, but Throw is great up close.

[ramnozack]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Shotguns are great for shredding defenses.

IDK about Warp, but Throw is great up close.

Reave and warp are almost the same thing. they both are ranged biotic damage dealers and i use them to strip defenses and to just kill people when charging will get me killed espcially on insanity.

[Leonia]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ramnozack wrote...
Give vanguards warp and throw

Can you explain what you need Warp and Throw for? Vanguards are not hide-behind-cover-casters; Vanguards are equipped with tools to demolish the enemy up close and personal. That's their trade mark. If you want to go casting, play Adept.

It's also advisable to stop moaning about Pull and Shockwave, both of which are excellent powers. Of course, there are a lot of ignorant players who don't know nor try to use those powers effectively - that's their problem, not something related to Pull and Shockwave. Those moaners are easy to spot btw; the ones claiming Shockwave is good below HC and suck above (a ridiculous argument considering enemies have more health on Insanity than on Veteran - if powers suck on Insanity they suck on all other difficulty levels as well - in fact, a lot harder).

If you want to use Throw and Warp, play Sentinel, or better, Adept. Whining about stuff you don't have is pathetic, it's like arguing I like AI Hacking, why can't I have this on my Soldier? - If you want to Hack, play a tech class. That's what classes are for. If you don't like the class system, make a topic about that instead of trying to ruin the entire system only because you either don't know or like the way of the Vanguard.

Excellent post. When I read the thread title my initial reaction was: "If you want caster skills, play a caster." A vanguard is the closest thing in ME to a melee/close-combat class. It doesn't NEED to be more than that (or we would unbalance the other classes in the process).

I have played through the vanguard countless times and never felt inadequate. Anyone who relies heavily on warp is not taking advantage of other useful abilities for tearing through armour (remember, utilise your squad-mates and hey that inferno ammo is incredibly useful with a well-aimed SMG).

I'm quite happy with the vanguard as is and only hope that ME3 introduces a better cooldown system (preferably with the class-specific ones on a different timer). Of course, there are cheats and the like for people who want to play unbeatable, god-like characters but what fun is that for the average player?

Modifié par leonia42, 05 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[ramnozack]

leonia42 wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ramnozack wrote...
Give vanguards warp and throw

Can you explain what you need Warp and Throw for? Vanguards are not hide-behind-cover-casters; Vanguards are equipped with tools to demolish the enemy up close and personal. That's their trade mark. If you want to go casting, play Adept.

It's also advisable to stop moaning about Pull and Shockwave, both of which are excellent powers. Of course, there are a lot of ignorant players who don't know nor try to use those powers effectively - that's their problem, not something related to Pull and Shockwave. Those moaners are easy to spot btw; the ones claiming Shockwave is good below HC and suck above (a ridiculous argument considering enemies have more health on Insanity than on Veteran - if powers suck on Insanity they suck on all other difficulty levels as well - in fact, a lot harder).

If you want to use Throw and Warp, play Sentinel, or better, Adept. Whining about stuff you don't have is pathetic, it's like arguing I like AI Hacking, why can't I have this on my Soldier? - If you want to Hack, play a tech class. That's what classes are for. If you don't like the class system, make a topic about that instead of trying to ruin the entire system only because you either don't know or like the way of the Vanguard.

Excellent post. When I read the thread title my initial reaction was: "If you want caster skills, play a caster." A vanguard is the closest thing in ME to a melee/close-combat class. It doesn't NEED to be more than that (or we would unbalance the other classes in the process).

I have played through the vanguard countless times and never felt inadequate. Anyone who relies heavily on warp is not taking advantage of other useful abilities for tearing through armour (remember, utilise your squad-mates and hey that inferno ammo is incredibly useful with a well-aimed SMG).

I'm quite happy with the vanguard as is and only hope that ME3 introduces a better cooldown system (preferably with the class-specific ones on a different timer). Of course, there are cheats and the like for people who want to play unbeatable, god-like characters but what fun is that for the average player?

Infiltrator,solider,Sentinel all those can play CQC. People like me who played ME 1 know what Vanguard was like then. It was a good mix of combat and biotics and you could decide wether to focus on combat or biotics. I usually chose combat aka shock trooper spec but still had good biotics. I knew ME 1 vanguard was OP so i was hoping they'd fix it in ME 2 they made some improvements but they took alot of the stuff i loved. besides how in the world would giving throw and warp make vanguards op god-like characters? it would simply give them a way to stripping defenses and CC"ing people before they charge in.

[Leonia]

You have squad-mates. Let them strip armour. Easy.

[Parah_Salin]

I think they're fine. The only thing I might change is barrier as a class skill instead of ammo powers.

Though shock wave needs to to be improved. When you think about it thier biotic selection makes sense conceptually. Shotgun+charge is your main weapon. Pull lets you pluck someone closer so you can shoot them point blank with a shotgun, or setting up a warp bomb with another squad mate.,shock wave I think is intended to be for cleaning up anyone left after you run out of ammo in your shotgun and knock them back while you reload.

I think Shockwave just needs to be improved. this is for adepts too.

[ramnozack]

leonia42 wrote...

You have squad-mates. Let them strip armour. Easy.

Yes lets wait for Miranda to throw out a warp every 12 secs while i watch....intresting.....but no. Warp for vanguards in ME 3 will solve the problem of not having reave to burn down defenses.

If u want some1 with no biotics and just shoots a gun all day and lets his squadmates burn armor for him i heard solider is good for that but Vanguard is Solider/Adept not just Solider/Charge. 2 biotics abilities other then charge is very dumb. You telling me my vanguard can create a biotic line of explosions but can't do a simple biotic throw?
And hell every vanguard npc in game has warp.

[ramnozack]

Modifié par ramnozack, 05 juin 2011 - 01:55 .

[Leonia]

You use reave to burn down defenses? Why on earth are you not using that inferno armmo or relying on your squaddies? Reave is more of a heal than it is a defense-stealer.

Anyway, if you had warp in ME2, it would be on a global cooldown with everything else right, you'd be charging a lot less if you wanted to use it yourself all the time (instead of letting Miranda do it). And I'm not sure what your fascination with throw is (other than the low cooldown).

I've always enjoyed the ME2 version of Vanguard more than the ME1 variety, didn't use biotics so much in ME1 and in ME2 I know just when to throw down improved shockwave or heavy slam if I have to use them but find myself mostly doing the "charge+shotgun" thing and loving every minute of it. Occasionally rip down some armour with incendiary ammo if I need to (and squaddies are on cooldowns) and good to go. Couldn't ask for more.

It sounds like your playstyle is more suited for adept than vanguard, honestly.

FWIW, I rarely use warp on my squaddies. I run with two snipers and my vanguard and have never felt that I absolutely needed warp. Perhaps with my squisher adept I find warp to be very useful (especially when I combine it with singularity) but for a vanguard? Why bother, a shotgun to the face, even on insanity, is good enough.

Modifié par leonia42, 05 juin 2011 - 02:08 .

[Dave666]

ramnozack wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You have squad-mates. Let them strip armour. Easy.

Yes lets wait for Miranda to throw out a warp every 12 secs while i watch....intresting.....but no. Warp for vanguards in ME 3 will solve the problem of not having reave to burn down defenses.

If u want some1 with no biotics and just shoots a gun all day and lets his squadmates burn armor for him i heard solider is good for that but Vanguard is Solider/Adept not just Solider/Charge. 2 biotics abilities other then charge is very dumb. You telling me my vanguard can create a biotic line of explosions but can't do a simple biotic throw?
And hell every vanguard npc in game has warp.

See this is why I said that the Vangard needs two combat abilities.  Would you still be saying that the Vangard only has two abilities and Charge if was actually designed as a Combat/Biotic hybrid?  I disagree with you about the Vangard having more Biotic powers (like Warp) though, if we're talking about the way it was implemented in ME:2.  The basic idea was sound enough, its the way that they implemented it that fell short.  By classing Ammo as a Combat power they screwed up the balance royally.  If Incendiary and Cryo Ammo were replaced with actual Combat abilities then the Vangard would have five abilities plus their Bonus ability, the same as the other classes.  

Giving the Vangard as is, yet another Biotic ability negates the entire point of playing an Adept.  Though personally I always felt that the specialists (Adept and Engineer) should have had more abilities than the hybrids.  The Specialists focus on one type, the hybrids gain advantage from two different fields.  Why should say the Adept have the same number of abilities as a Soldier when the Soldier gets more guns?  Either give more abilities to the classes who focus on them, or give the Soldier less guns.

[Leonia]

Sure, one more combat ability would have been nice but again, I never felt like the vanguard was lacking. Charge more than made up for the difference. But we shall see how the balance works in ME3 soon enough.

[Jonathan Shepard]

All they need is to have warp back...

[CroGamer002]

Why?

Vanguard is fine.