215 réponses à ce sujet

[Pedro Costa]

Champion + Heavy Charge + Inferno ammo + Shotgun to the face = game over, Vanguard won.
If there's a class I didn't feel like it lacked anything, it was the Vanguard.
It was powerful, challenging (steep learning curve, but once you get to the top, oh boy) and insanely fun.

Except when you have someone four meters away from you with nothing in-between and suddenly "can't get a lock!"

[ramnozack]

leonia42 wrote...

You use reave to burn down defenses? Why on earth are you not using that inferno armmo or relying on your squaddies? Reave is more of a heal than it is a defense-stealer.

Anyway, if you had warp in ME2, it would be on a global cooldown with everything else right, you'd be charging a lot less if you wanted to use it yourself all the time (instead of letting Miranda do it). And I'm not sure what your fascination with throw is (other than the low cooldown).

I've always enjoyed the ME2 version of Vanguard more than the ME1 variety, didn't use biotics so much in ME1 and in ME2 I know just when to throw down improved shockwave or heavy slam if I have to use them but find myself mostly doing the "charge+shotgun" thing and loving every minute of it. Occasionally rip down some armour with incendiary ammo if I need to (and squaddies are on cooldowns) and good to go. Couldn't ask for more.

It sounds like your playstyle is more suited for adept than vanguard, honestly.

FWIW, I rarely use warp on my squaddies. I run with two snipers and my vanguard and have never felt that I absolutely needed warp. Perhaps with my squisher adept I find warp to be very useful (especially when I combine it with singularity) but for a vanguard? Why bother, a shotgun to the face, even on insanity, is good enough.

are u slow? reave hits defense instantly and i also shoot them with my inferno ammo gun. Warp does the same thing. its for stripping defenses at range when charge will kill u. u most die alot in ur vanguard playthroughs. and ur wasting ur squads potential if u can set up a warp bomb with ur squadies warp do it pull is a 3 sec cd it wont kill u and warp bomb does incred damage ur playstyle is more solider then vanguard TBH u just want to shoot everything with ammo powers. =/

[ramnozack]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Champion + Heavy Charge + Inferno ammo + Shotgun to the face = game over, Vanguard won.
If there's a class I didn't feel like it lacked anything, it was the Vanguard.
It was powerful, challenging (steep learning curve, but once you get to the top, oh boy) and insanely fun.

Except when you have someone four meters away from you with nothing in-between and suddenly "can't get a lock!"

Yeah but i want more to do then just charge everything. Having each class's signature ability on a diff cd will greatly help u use ALL ur biotics instead of just charge. I could warp some1's armor down charge him and blast his face away with a shotty blast since all his defenses are gone. Or throw. quickly use throw on some1 to knock em down charge and dont have to worry about some of the people shooting at you for a couple secs which is enough time to kill a few guys. Not to mention the fact warp is still a good dmg ability. charge melee shotty blast warp to dmg and stagger shot blast dead

[ramnozack]

Dave666 wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You have squad-mates. Let them strip armour. Easy.

Yes lets wait for Miranda to throw out a warp every 12 secs while i watch....intresting.....but no. Warp for vanguards in ME 3 will solve the problem of not having reave to burn down defenses.

If u want some1 with no biotics and just shoots a gun all day and lets his squadmates burn armor for him i heard solider is good for that but Vanguard is Solider/Adept not just Solider/Charge. 2 biotics abilities other then charge is very dumb. You telling me my vanguard can create a biotic line of explosions but can't do a simple biotic throw?
And hell every vanguard npc in game has warp.

See this is why I said that the Vangard needs two combat abilities.  Would you still be saying that the Vangard only has two abilities and Charge if was actually designed as a Combat/Biotic hybrid?  I disagree with you about the Vangard having more Biotic powers (like Warp) though, if we're talking about the way it was implemented in ME:2.  The basic idea was sound enough, its the way that they implemented it that fell short.  By classing Ammo as a Combat power they screwed up the balance royally.  If Incendiary and Cryo Ammo were replaced with actual Combat abilities then the Vangard would have five abilities plus their Bonus ability, the same as the other classes.  

Giving the Vangard as is, yet another Biotic ability negates the entire point of playing an Adept.  Though personally I always felt that the specialists (Adept and Engineer) should have had more abilities than the hybrids.  The Specialists focus on one type, the hybrids gain advantage from two different fields.  Why should say the Adept have the same number of abilities as a Soldier when the Soldier gets more guns?  Either give more abilities to the classes who focus on them, or give the Soldier less guns.

Adepts will always no matter WHAT have better biotics then vanguards. adept biotics will do more damage and recharge faster. they use biotics as their main dmg source. Vanguards on the other hand use things like warp to get down enemy defenses from range when charge can kill u and for extra damage and throw to cc some people before you charge. In ME 3 solider will get 4 guns  vanguard and infil 3 the rest 2. Im sure that in ME 3 they will have some way of making adept biotics more effective then vanguards and sentinels. Also from a lore standpoint why would vanguards want reg combat abilities when they have biotics? Throw field is basically a 10x better version of con blast.

AND only having 1 biotic which is really useful in HC+ kinda defeats the point of playing a Solider/Adept hybrid. I wouldn't have picked vanguard if i only wanted to charge everywhere solider with AR can do that 2 just not as fast.

[ramnozack]

Mesina2 wrote...

Why?

Vanguard is fine.

Thats your opinion but personally they need 1 or 2 more biotic powers. warp and throw would be perfect. ME1 Vanguard got it down perfectly though it was a little to OP was hoping they would tone it down instead they removed what made the class good and gave us charge. Dont get me wrong i love charge but it kinda defeats the /adept part of the hybrid if i can only really do 1 useful biotic.

[Bozorgmehr]

ramnozack wrote...

and who said i was dissing shockwave and pull? i use both alot in my gameplay style. If your not gonna post anything useful on my thread other then useless garbage like saying that if i want throw a biotic ability which my vanguard shep had in ME 1 but is now mysteriously gone then please get out. We dont need people like you holding back the vanguard class.

Also your "argument" about solider whining about not being able to use ai hacking. That wouldn't make sense obviously for solider. But being able to perform a basic biotic throw and use warp like every other vanguard in this game is a stretch aint it?  Make a good argument other then whining about me wanting 2 more powers for vanguard or just get out.

I consider this a useless thread b/c all your arguments are the total opposite of the ME class system. You want to create your own custom class and are not interested in finding ways to make the most out of the powers available. One of the things I really like about ME2 is that you can make any power work, and work well, if you give it a try.

I also said in a previous post that Vanguards (like all combat classes) need some actual combat powers (instead of ammo). That makes sense, making the Vanguard an Adept + Charge + Inferno Ammo + Shotgun totally breaks the Adept class.

Man I keep reading your post and finding more and more flaws......also you basically said if powers suck on HC+ then they suck on VET -.......u even play ME 2? EVERY biotic is better on VET - because you dont need to strip defenses first.
In vet if i see a enemy behind cover i can just pull him from the start and pop a shell in his head. If on insanity i would just wait for him to pop his head out so i could CHARGE him cuz none of my other abilities would be nearly effective. Pull out pull in my explanation and put shockwave you have the same thing.

You have squadmates to help deal with stuff the class you selected has issues with. If you want to Pull enemies behind cover you can use defenses stripping powers (squad) or weapons. I also recommend to check my sig; biotics totally rock on Insanity if you know how to use them and know how to fight as a team. Both Pull and Shockwave are 'better' options (than Charge) in many situations. Do you need them to complete the game? No. Do you need Charge to complete the game? No. Are you going to have fun ignoring those powers? Not likely.

Infiltrator,solider,Sentinel all those can play CQC. People like me who played ME 1 know what Vanguard was like then. It was a good mix of combat and biotics and you could decide wether to focus on combat or biotics. I usually chose combat aka shock trooper spec but still had good biotics. I knew ME 1 vanguard was OP so i was hoping they'd fix it in ME 2 they made some improvements but they took alot of the stuff i loved. besides how in the world would giving throw and warp make vanguards op god-like characters? it would simply give them a way to stripping defenses and CC"ing people before they charge in.

Playing CQC has nothing to do with classes. I play CQC with all classes b/c that's the most fun imo. However, Vanguards have tools which makes them king of CQC; just like Soldiers are king of guns; Engineers masters of tech; and Adepts the biotic experts - that's what classes are for.

In ME1 there is no difference between Adepts and Vanguards; they are clones - playing one is playing the other (especially with bonus powers Singularity and Shotgun available). I'm glad ME2 gave every class an unique flavor - something you're trying to undermine with your Warp-Throw-on-the-Vanguard argument.

Also explain why Vanguards need defense-stripping? Doing so only gimps the Vanguard: they have to wait on cooldown before you can move on; and Charging enemies, who've lost defenses, will be flying all over the place, making it much harder to kill them with your shotgun. Vanguards are not about CC, they are about speed and raw killing power (using the shotgun appropriately, i.e. at point blank range). If you like Throw, Warp, Shotguns and CQC go play Sentinel or Adept and take on shotgun training on the DCS.

[lazuli]

ramnozack wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You have squad-mates. Let them strip armour. Easy.

Yes lets wait for Miranda to throw out a warp every 12 secs while i watch....intresting.....but no. Warp for vanguards in ME 3 will solve the problem of not having reave to burn down defenses.

If u want some1 with no biotics and just shoots a gun all day and lets his squadmates burn armor for him i heard solider is good for that but Vanguard is Solider/Adept not just Solider/Charge. 2 biotics abilities other then charge is very dumb. You telling me my vanguard can create a biotic line of explosions but can't do a simple biotic throw?
And hell every vanguard npc in game has warp.

If Miranda's Warp is taking 12 seconds to recharge, you haven't evolved it properly.  Use Unstable Warp for a 9 second cooldown.  Combine that with the biotic cooldown reduction upgrade, and you'll be Warping quite frequently.

Or, you know, just shoot armor off with your Inferno Ammo.

[ramnozack]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

and who said i was dissing shockwave and pull? i use both alot in my gameplay style. If your not gonna post anything useful on my thread other then useless garbage like saying that if i want throw a biotic ability which my vanguard shep had in ME 1 but is now mysteriously gone then please get out. We dont need people like you holding back the vanguard class.

Also your "argument" about solider whining about not being able to use ai hacking. That wouldn't make sense obviously for solider. But being able to perform a basic biotic throw and use warp like every other vanguard in this game is a stretch aint it?  Make a good argument other then whining about me wanting 2 more powers for vanguard or just get out.

I consider this a useless thread b/c all your arguments are the total opposite of the ME class system. You want to create your own custom class and are not interested in finding ways to make the most out of the powers available. One of the things I really like about ME2 is that you can make any power work, and work well, if you give it a try.

I also said in a previous post that Vanguards (like all combat classes) need some actual combat powers (instead of ammo). That makes sense, making the Vanguard an Adept + Charge + Inferno Ammo + Shotgun totally breaks the Adept class.

Man I keep reading your post and finding more and more flaws......also you basically said if powers suck on HC+ then they suck on VET -.......u even play ME 2? EVERY biotic is better on VET - because you dont need to strip defenses first.
In vet if i see a enemy behind cover i can just pull him from the start and pop a shell in his head. If on insanity i would just wait for him to pop his head out so i could CHARGE him cuz none of my other abilities would be nearly effective. Pull out pull in my explanation and put shockwave you have the same thing.

You have squadmates to help deal with stuff the class you selected has issues with. If you want to Pull enemies behind cover you can use defenses stripping powers (squad) or weapons. I also recommend to check my sig; biotics totally rock on Insanity if you know how to use them and know how to fight as a team. Both Pull and Shockwave are 'better' options (than Charge) in many situations. Do you need them to complete the game? No. Do you need Charge to complete the game? No. Are you going to have fun ignoring those powers? Not likely.

Infiltrator,solider,Sentinel all those can play CQC. People like me who played ME 1 know what Vanguard was like then. It was a good mix of combat and biotics and you could decide wether to focus on combat or biotics. I usually chose combat aka shock trooper spec but still had good biotics. I knew ME 1 vanguard was OP so i was hoping they'd fix it in ME 2 they made some improvements but they took alot of the stuff i loved. besides how in the world would giving throw and warp make vanguards op god-like characters? it would simply give them a way to stripping defenses and CC"ing people before they charge in.

Playing CQC has nothing to do with classes. I play CQC with all classes b/c that's the most fun imo. However, Vanguards have tools which makes them king of CQC; just like Soldiers are king of guns; Engineers masters of tech; and Adepts the biotic experts - that's what classes are for.

In ME1 there is no difference between Adepts and Vanguards; they are clones - playing one is playing the other (especially with bonus powers Singularity and Shotgun available). I'm glad ME2 gave every class an unique flavor - something you're trying to undermine with your Warp-Throw-on-the-Vanguard argument.

Also explain why Vanguards need defense-stripping? Doing so only gimps the Vanguard: they have to wait on cooldown before you can move on; and Charging enemies, who've lost defenses, will be flying all over the place, making it much harder to kill them with your shotgun. Vanguards are not about CC, they are about speed and raw killing power (using the shotgun appropriately, i.e. at point blank range). If you like Throw, Warp, Shotguns and CQC go play Sentinel or Adept and take on shotgun training on the DCS.

First of all your not posting any useful info all your saying is " IM RIGHT UR WRONG" U think im trying to change the class system by giving Vanguard 2 more biotics abilities.......that might be the dumbest thing ive heard today.
AND i admitted vanguards in ME 1 were OP and i hope they would TONE THEM DOWN not get rid of all they're biotics and give them only 3 new 1's 2 of which have limited use on HC+.

I've explained this a bunch of times alrdy but u dont read so here i go again. I use reave (which is almost like warp) to strip enemy defenses when they're are to many enemies to charge. I use HEAVY charge so only ONE guy goes flying back so that ONE less guy shooting me i then proceed to kill the rest of the defenseless goons. I also use reave when im alrdy in CQC it CC's heals me like charge does but it also does damage that isn't less then 1 SMG bullet. I only charge when they are out of range of my Eviscerator.

Im suggesting that they give warp to vanguards if reave isn't in ME 3 and to give throw to them as a CC/dmg ability.
I also think its a extremely good idea to put each class's main ability on a diff cd so u can use all your biotic abilities.

Yes Vanguard is the CQC specialist but it is also a Solider/Adept hybrid. You treat it like a solider with charge as a bonus power.

[lazuli]

ramnozack wrote...

Yes Vanguard is the CQC specialist but it is also a Solider/Adept hybrid. You treat it like a solider with charge as a bonus power.

But if you give it Warp and Throw then it's not a Soldier/Adept hybrid.  It's an Adept with Charge and, perhaps, a better weapon selection.

Part of what makes an Adept an Adept in ME2 is that it is the only class that can pull off biotic combos without a squadmate's support.  Giving the Vanguard Throw or Warp while retaining Pull would rob the Adept of its unique status.

Yes, you can technically already combo with a Vanguard by using Pull then Shockwave or Charge, but I would argue that neither of those combos is as iconic as the Warp explosion or the Pull + Throw (Homerun!).

[ramnozack]

lazuli wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You have squad-mates. Let them strip armour. Easy.

Yes lets wait for Miranda to throw out a warp every 12 secs while i watch....intresting.....but no. Warp for vanguards in ME 3 will solve the problem of not having reave to burn down defenses.

If u want some1 with no biotics and just shoots a gun all day and lets his squadmates burn armor for him i heard solider is good for that but Vanguard is Solider/Adept not just Solider/Charge. 2 biotics abilities other then charge is very dumb. You telling me my vanguard can create a biotic line of explosions but can't do a simple biotic throw?
And hell every vanguard npc in game has warp.

If Miranda's Warp is taking 12 seconds to recharge, you haven't evolved it properly.  Use Unstable Warp for a 9 second cooldown.  Combine that with the biotic cooldown reduction upgrade, and you'll be Warping quite frequently.

Or, you know, just shoot armor off with your Inferno Ammo.

 /facepalm. your missing the point. This isn't squadmate build forum. I was just using that as a example you dont need to start a miranda build discussion. What ive been sayin i want for the vanguard in ME 3 is warp to replace reave if it isn't in ME 3 and throw for a CC unless the improve shockwave in some way then maybe barrier or a COMBAT ability.

[Leonia]

What you're asking is for vanguard to be self-sufficient and godlike but this isn't a game where you are on your own.. you have a squad.

Your squad is there to help you.

You do not need to be able to do every single skill on Shepard because Shepard is part of a team.

That's just how the game works. That's why every class has pros and cons, why no one class is "the best".

[lazuli]

ramnozack wrote...

lazuli wrote...

If Miranda's Warp is taking 12 seconds to recharge, you haven't evolved it properly.  Use Unstable Warp for a 9 second cooldown.  Combine that with the biotic cooldown reduction upgrade, and you'll be Warping quite frequently.

Or, you know, just shoot armor off with your Inferno Ammo.

 /facepalm. your missing the point. This isn't squadmate build forum. I was just using that as a example you dont need to start a miranda build discussion. What ive been sayin i want for the vanguard in ME 3 is warp to replace reave if it isn't in ME 3 and throw for a CC unless the improve shockwave in some way then maybe barrier or a COMBAT ability.

I'm just pointing out fallacies in your argument.  If you're going to back up your position with faulty evidence, someone is going to call you on it.

If you want to discuss enhancing the Vanguard's biotics, please consider what you would do to make the Adept still feel like the biotic master.  As it is, Singularity isn't enough to make it feel special when the Vanguard can toss out Warp bombs and Pull + Throw combos singlehandedly.

[CroGamer002]

leonia42 wrote...

What you're asking is for vanguard to be self-sufficient and godlike but this isn't a game where you are on your own.. you have a squad.

Your squad is there to help you.

You do not need to be able to do every single skill on Shepard because Shepard is part of a team.

That's just how the game works. That's why every class has pros and cons, why no one class is "the best".

This.

[ramnozack]

lazuli wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

Yes Vanguard is the CQC specialist but it is also a Solider/Adept hybrid. You treat it like a solider with charge as a bonus power.

But if you give it Warp and Throw then it's not a Soldier/Adept hybrid.  It's an Adept with Charge and, perhaps, a better weapon selection.

Part of what makes an Adept an Adept in ME2 is that it is the only class that can pull off biotic combos without a squadmate's support.  Giving the Vanguard Throw or Warp while retaining Pull would rob the Adept of its unique status.

Yes, you can technically already combo with a Vanguard by using Pull then Shockwave or Charge, but I would argue that neither of those combos is as iconic as the Warp explosion or the Pull + Throw (Homerun!).

The point is Vanguard's biotics wont be as powerful or recharge fast enough to set up combo's like that when you could just warp off a groups defenses charge in start shotgunnin using throw to knock a few off their feet so they wont shoot u up to much charge whenever it comes up and warp for extra dmg when u need it. Vanguards dont use biotics for combo's they use them to basically CC and get extra direct dmg from them. Adept's unique status won't be robbed.  Keep in mind im talking about ME3 and they said skill trees will be longer and more evolutions will be there.
they can always have adepts biotics be much more effective then Vanguards by giving their powers Unique evolution. Not to mention there will probably be a few new powers in ME 3 and Adept will prob get a few of them not to mention they still have singularity. However im not the 1 designing the game so i dont know what they're going to do.
Point is Adepts will always be the masters of biotics giving vanguard a few more wont affect that

[Leonia]

You really love warp don't you?

[marshalleck]

ramnozack wrote...

First of all your not posting any useful info all your saying is " IM RIGHT UR WRONG" U think im trying to change the class system by giving Vanguard 2 more biotics abilities.......that might be the dumbest thing ive heard today.
AND i admitted vanguards in ME 1 were OP and i hope they would TONE THEM DOWN not get rid of all they're biotics and give them only 3 new 1's 2 of which have limited use on HC+.

I've explained this a bunch of times alrdy but u dont read so here i go again. I use reave (which is almost like warp) to strip enemy defenses when they're are to many enemies to charge. I use HEAVY charge so only ONE guy goes flying back so that ONE less guy shooting me i then proceed to kill the rest of the defenseless goons. I also use reave when im alrdy in CQC it CC's heals me like charge does but it also does damage that isn't less then 1 SMG bullet. I only charge when they are out of range of my Eviscerator.

Im suggesting that they give warp to vanguards if reave isn't in ME 3 and to give throw to them as a CC/dmg ability.
I also think its a extremely good idea to put each class's main ability on a diff cd so u can use all your biotic abilities.

Yes Vanguard is the CQC specialist but it is also a Solider/Adept hybrid. You treat it like a solider with charge as a bonus power.

Man, you are doing it all kinds of wrong. The class you should be playing is Adept or Sentinel. Vanguards are intended to be in point blank range, where the shotguns will do so much damage that defenses barely matter. Seriously, you can just about one-shot a fully shielded and healthy collector on insanity with the claymore if you go for headshots--they'll have like a sliver of health left, one swipe of melee will drop them. Vanguards really don't need to rely on defense stripping if you're playing the class to its strengths, which you're not doing--which is why you feel like a gimp having to rely on reave spam, and end up wishing you had more biotics. When the class you want to be playing all along already exists.

Boz is absolutely 100% correct with his responses to you.

Modifié par marshalleck, 05 juin 2011 - 04:28 .

[ramnozack]

leonia42 wrote...

What you're asking is for vanguard to be self-sufficient and godlike but this isn't a game where you are on your own.. you have a squad.

Your squad is there to help you.

You do not need to be able to do every single skill on Shepard because Shepard is part of a team.

That's just how the game works. That's why every class has pros and cons, why no one class is "the best".

So let me get this straight. You 2 think it would overpower the Vanguard by giving him 2 BASIC biotics? keep in mind EVERY class is getting atleast 1 new ability Christina already said this. You both are not taking into account that im talking about ME 3. You guys have ME 2 in your head.  I just want to hear some reasonable arguments as to why the vanguard might be overpowered some how by adding throw to its power list or adding warp to its power list. It absolutely makes no sense. No one power in ME 2 could ever OP you (except for that damn tech armor but thats sentinel) so explain to me why these 2 powers would overpower vanguard.

[lazuli]

ramnozack wrote...

The point is Vanguard's biotics wont be as powerful or recharge fast enough to set up combo's like that when you could just warp off a groups defenses charge in start shotgunnin using throw to knock a few off their feet so they wont shoot u up to much charge whenever it comes up and warp for extra dmg when u need it.

The Vanguard you're describing just dropped from overpowered god status to unplayable wreck.  Powers that recharge so slowly you can't combo with Pull and Throw?  Pull's duration is formidable, especially with upgrades.  If you maxed it out and still couldn't combo with your own added Throw or Warp, the Vanguard's cooldowns would be obscene.  You'd have more downtime than a level 1 Soldier spamming Geth Shield Boost on recharge.  Vanguards arguably have the least downtime of any class in ME2 when played properly.  Why would anyone want to play your version?

I can see that you want your Vanguard to feel like an aggressive biotic that can blow things up and hurl people around- not just Charge at them, lift them, or use the admittedly underwhelming Shockwave on them.  But you're not explaining how you would implement this without either breaking the class or making other classes feel terrible in comparison.

Point is Adepts will always be the masters of biotics giving vanguard a few more wont affect that

Except it would.  People already give Adepts a hard time for their problems in countering defenses.  Giving Vanguards access to more of the Adept's domain would just weaken them further in comparison.

[CroGamer002]

If you want to play CQC and have warp then choose shotgun for Adept or Sentinel on Collector Ship.

[ramnozack]

marshalleck wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

First of all your not posting any useful info all your saying is " IM RIGHT UR WRONG" U think im trying to change the class system by giving Vanguard 2 more biotics abilities.......that might be the dumbest thing ive heard today.
AND i admitted vanguards in ME 1 were OP and i hope they would TONE THEM DOWN not get rid of all they're biotics and give them only 3 new 1's 2 of which have limited use on HC+.

I've explained this a bunch of times alrdy but u dont read so here i go again. I use reave (which is almost like warp) to strip enemy defenses when they're are to many enemies to charge. I use HEAVY charge so only ONE guy goes flying back so that ONE less guy shooting me i then proceed to kill the rest of the defenseless goons. I also use reave when im alrdy in CQC it CC's heals me like charge does but it also does damage that isn't less then 1 SMG bullet. I only charge when they are out of range of my Eviscerator.

Im suggesting that they give warp to vanguards if reave isn't in ME 3 and to give throw to them as a CC/dmg ability.
I also think its a extremely good idea to put each class's main ability on a diff cd so u can use all your biotic abilities.

Yes Vanguard is the CQC specialist but it is also a Solider/Adept hybrid. You treat it like a solider with charge as a bonus power.

Man, you are doing it all kinds of wrong. The class you should be playing is Adept or Sentinel. Vanguards are intended to be in point blank range, where the shotguns will do so much damage that defenses barely matter. Seriously, you can just about one-shot a fully shielded and healthy collector on insanity with the claymore if you go for headshots--they'll have like a sliver of health left, one swipe of melee will drop them. Vanguards really don't need to rely on defense stripping if you're playing the class to its strengths, which you're not doing--which is why you feel like a gimp having to rely on reave spam, and end up wishing you had more biotics. When the class you want to be playing all along already exists.

Boz is absolutely 100% correct with his responses to you.

So what your saying is Vanguard is just a solider with a shotty and charge and if u dont play it the same way i do gtfo? I love the vanguard class ive tried assualt sentinel and shotty adept all boring. But because i want to use other biotic powers other then charge im doing something wrong? If all you do is charge in insanity you will prob die u cant just charge in 4-5 people with defenses and think to win. Charge is prob my most used biotic and I kill most people with my shotgun but stripping defenses in situations like those is essential to me. All becuase u play a different way doesn't make me wrong and you right.

[marshalleck]

ramnozack wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

First of all your not posting any useful info all your saying is " IM RIGHT UR WRONG" U think im trying to change the class system by giving Vanguard 2 more biotics abilities.......that might be the dumbest thing ive heard today.
AND i admitted vanguards in ME 1 were OP and i hope they would TONE THEM DOWN not get rid of all they're biotics and give them only 3 new 1's 2 of which have limited use on HC+.

I've explained this a bunch of times alrdy but u dont read so here i go again. I use reave (which is almost like warp) to strip enemy defenses when they're are to many enemies to charge. I use HEAVY charge so only ONE guy goes flying back so that ONE less guy shooting me i then proceed to kill the rest of the defenseless goons. I also use reave when im alrdy in CQC it CC's heals me like charge does but it also does damage that isn't less then 1 SMG bullet. I only charge when they are out of range of my Eviscerator.

Im suggesting that they give warp to vanguards if reave isn't in ME 3 and to give throw to them as a CC/dmg ability.
I also think its a extremely good idea to put each class's main ability on a diff cd so u can use all your biotic abilities.

Yes Vanguard is the CQC specialist but it is also a Solider/Adept hybrid. You treat it like a solider with charge as a bonus power.

Man, you are doing it all kinds of wrong. The class you should be playing is Adept or Sentinel. Vanguards are intended to be in point blank range, where the shotguns will do so much damage that defenses barely matter. Seriously, you can just about one-shot a fully shielded and healthy collector on insanity with the claymore if you go for headshots--they'll have like a sliver of health left, one swipe of melee will drop them. Vanguards really don't need to rely on defense stripping if you're playing the class to its strengths, which you're not doing--which is why you feel like a gimp having to rely on reave spam, and end up wishing you had more biotics. When the class you want to be playing all along already exists.

Boz is absolutely 100% correct with his responses to you.

So what your saying is Vanguard is just a solider with a shotty and charge and if u dont play it the same way i do gtfo? I love the vanguard class ive tried assualt sentinel and shotty adept all boring. But because i want to use other biotic powers other then charge im doing something wrong? If all you do is charge in insanity you will prob die u cant just charge in 4-5 people with defenses and think to win. Charge is prob my most used biotic and I kill most people with my shotgun but stripping defenses in situations like those is essential to me. All becuase u play a different way doesn't make me wrong and you right.

It's "soldier" not "solider" and yes, what you're doing here is basically the same as ****ing that soldiers don't have AI Hacking. Tons of people have absolutely no problem at all with the Vanguard as it is once they learn to play to its strengths. If almost everyone in this thread is saying "hey man, Vanguards really don't need warp, you're doing it wrong" chances are pretty good that you are in fact using poor strategy and technique with your character. 

Also, it is possible to charge into groups safely but you've got to pay attention to what you're doing and who you plan to kill first. It is very easy to suicide with charge, but that's called gameplay balance. It's an incredibly powerful tool, it *has* to have a drawback. That drawback is you dying if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

Of all six classes in ME2 I think Vanguard is one that could transition into ME3 pretty much just as it is, without any buffs beyond whatever higher level power mutations they planned to implement. Its power relative to the other classes is balanced if not ahead in the hands of someone who really knows how to abuse it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 05 juin 2011 - 04:44 .

[Leonia]

Nobody is saying one way is better than the other, we're just saying you can't make one class more OP than the rest, as they are now all classes are fairly balanced. If you start stealing from the adept, you may as well just play an adept, you know?

The only decent argument I've seen here for adding to vanguard was Dave666's idea about a new combat skill other than an an ammo-type. You don't need more biotics to have more at your disposal.

But the way you play vanguard just isn't how most people play it, you can't expect Bioware to cater to your whims and needs when you're the only person who plays like that. That's not fair to the rest of us, regardless of which class we play.

I have seen very few people agreeing with the OP in this thread. Perhaps those arguments for "moar biotics but let's still call it vanguard plz" don't exist because they would cause impractical balancing issues for other classes?

Also, insulting people who don't agree with you isn't helping your cause.

Modifié par leonia42, 05 juin 2011 - 04:42 .

[lazuli]

ramnozack wrote...
 All becuase u play a different way doesn't make me wrong and you right.

Except it does.  In ME2, the classes feel different from one another.  Each class has a unique playstyle associated with it and several variations within it.  The Vanguard is most effective in close combat.  Giving it Warp detracts from that.  Why would you want to use a 6 second cooldown dropping an enemy's defenses when you could do that from a similar distance in ~2 seconds with an SMG?  Your cooldown would be saved for Charge which could be used to restore whatever shields you lost while out of cover, shooting your target's defenses off.

The playstyle you want is already available to you, offered by the Adept or Sentinel.

Vanguards have Incendiary Ammo to deal with armor.  They don't need Warp.

Similarly, they don't need Throw.  Charge can be used to launch or stagger opponents, and it comes with the added bonus of tactical positioning and barrier regeneration.

[ramnozack]

lazuli wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

The point is Vanguard's biotics wont be as powerful or recharge fast enough to set up combo's like that when you could just warp off a groups defenses charge in start shotgunnin using throw to knock a few off their feet so they wont shoot u up to much charge whenever it comes up and warp for extra dmg when u need it.

The Vanguard you're describing just dropped from overpowered god status to unplayable wreck.  Powers that recharge so slowly you can't combo with Pull and Throw?  Pull's duration is formidable, especially with upgrades.  If you maxed it out and still couldn't combo with your own added Throw or Warp, the Vanguard's cooldowns would be obscene.  You'd have more downtime than a level 1 Soldier spamming Geth Shield Boost on recharge.  Vanguards arguably have the least downtime of any class in ME2 when played properly.  Why would anyone want to play your version?

I can see that you want your Vanguard to feel like an aggressive biotic that can blow things up and hurl people around- not just Charge at them, lift them, or use the admittedly underwhelming Shockwave on them.  But you're not explaining how you would implement this without either breaking the class or making other classes feel terrible in comparison.

Point is Adepts will always be the masters of biotics giving vanguard a few more wont affect that

Except it would.  People already give Adepts a hard time for their problems in countering defenses.  Giving Vanguards access to more of the Adept's domain would just weaken them further in comparison.

Im not saying tat everyone has to play my version. In ME1 u could choose between biotic focused or combat focused i always picked combat thats what i kind of want in ME 3. Not min-max 1 class into "he can only charge and shotgun stuff nothing else!" They could give vanguards more biotics in ME 3 easily. More skills and more evolutions in ME 3 can make adept feel very unique by giving them certain evolutions which make their biotics unique from others. MAYBE adepts could have a shockwave where used anyone it hits flys into the air as if pulled and stays there. Or adepts warp explosion leaves a DOT on every1 it affects. this might be a crazy idea but wth, MAYBE adepts pull could be used on squadmates in trouble to pull them away from danger and into cover with adept while adept can specialize his biotics like this the vanguard's evolution wouldn't be the same or as powerful but he makes up for it in durability and combat prowess these are just some ideas

[Dave666]

ramnozack wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

You have squad-mates. Let them strip armour. Easy.

Yes lets wait for Miranda to throw out a warp every 12 secs while i watch....intresting.....but no. Warp for vanguards in ME 3 will solve the problem of not having reave to burn down defenses.

If u want some1 with no biotics and just shoots a gun all day and lets his squadmates burn armor for him i heard solider is good for that but Vanguard is Solider/Adept not just Solider/Charge. 2 biotics abilities other then charge is very dumb. You telling me my vanguard can create a biotic line of explosions but can't do a simple biotic throw?
And hell every vanguard npc in game has warp.

See this is why I said that the Vangard needs two combat abilities.  Would you still be saying that the Vangard only has two abilities and Charge if was actually designed as a Combat/Biotic hybrid?  I disagree with you about the Vangard having more Biotic powers (like Warp) though, if we're talking about the way it was implemented in ME:2.  The basic idea was sound enough, its the way that they implemented it that fell short.  By classing Ammo as a Combat power they screwed up the balance royally.  If Incendiary and Cryo Ammo were replaced with actual Combat abilities then the Vangard would have five abilities plus their Bonus ability, the same as the other classes.  

Giving the Vangard as is, yet another Biotic ability negates the entire point of playing an Adept.  Though personally I always felt that the specialists (Adept and Engineer) should have had more abilities than the hybrids.  The Specialists focus on one type, the hybrids gain advantage from two different fields.  Why should say the Adept have the same number of abilities as a Soldier when the Soldier gets more guns?  Either give more abilities to the classes who focus on them, or give the Soldier less guns.

Adepts will always no matter WHAT have better biotics then vanguards. adept biotics will do more damage and recharge faster. they use biotics as their main dmg source. Vanguards on the other hand use things like warp to get down enemy defenses from range when charge can kill u and for extra damage and throw to cc some people before you charge. In ME 3 solider will get 4 guns  vanguard and infil 3 the rest 2. Im sure that in ME 3 they will have some way of making adept biotics more effective then vanguards and sentinels. Also from a lore standpoint why would vanguards want reg combat abilities when they have biotics? Throw field is basically a 10x better version of con blast.

AND only having 1 biotic which is really useful in HC+ kinda defeats the point of playing a Solider/Adept hybrid. I wouldn't have picked vanguard if i only wanted to charge everywhere solider with AR can do that 2 just not as fast.

So you want a Vangard that can use Pull, Throw, Shockwave and Warp? Which class does that sound like?  Oh yes! The Adept!  The only thing missing is the Signiture Power (Singularity) but Vangards have their own Signiture Power (Charge).  What would be the point of playing the Adept again?

You claim that the Adept would do more damage and have faster cooldowns, but the difference between the two is so negligable that there might as well not even be one.  Hell even the Sentinel has faster cooldown times than the Adept or Engineer, which is bloody stupid.  A Hybrid of two specializations should never be more effective than a Specialist of one.  Guess what?  The Vangard is a Hybrid.