215 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

If it's any comfort, ramnozack, I believe bonus powers are confirmed for ME3. You might be able to find something that fits your playstyle there.

Ignoring bonus powers in both ME2 and ME3, I'd say that ME3 has a higher chance of giving you the caster Vanguard you want than ME2, if for no other reason than there will be more power evolutions. Maybe one of the new evolutions will do something to Shockwave, Pull, Charge, or whatever other powers the Vanguard might get, to give you what you're looking for.

I just hope the Vanguard's CQC identity isn't compromised in the process.

[Clonedzero]

yeah, because adding more powers and utility to the vanguard means you cant do it to the other classes as well right?

maybe give classes "too many" abilities so you cant upgrade them all meaning you have to pick and choose abilities on each class.

people are really negative around here huh?

[ramnozack]

lazuli wrote...

ramnozack wrote...
 All becuase u play a different way doesn't make me wrong and you right.

Except it does.  In ME2, the classes feel different from one another.  Each class has a unique playstyle associated with it and several variations within it.  The Vanguard is most effective in close combat.  Giving it Warp detracts from that.  Why would you want to use a 6 second cooldown dropping an enemy's defenses when you could do that from a similar distance in ~2 seconds with an SMG?  Your cooldown would be saved for Charge which could be used to restore whatever shields you lost while out of cover, shooting your target's defenses off.

The playstyle you want is already available to you, offered by the Adept or Sentinel.

Vanguards have Incendiary Ammo to deal with armor.  They don't need Warp.

Similarly, they don't need Throw.  Charge can be used to launch or stagger opponents, and it comes with the added bonus of tactical positioning and barrier regeneration.

all because u have warp doesn't mean u hide in cover like adept u could use it while fighting in CQC as stagger and damage. You cant just go around telling people if you dont do it your way your wrong thats just incredibly dumb.
And you forget the fact im talkin about ME 3. In me2 my playstyle is ALMOST what i want it to be i just lack throw.
If u read back into the forum im talkin about each class having his signature ability in a diff cd to use his other biotics aswell as charge. Inferno ammo just doesn't cut it. It only affects armor warp affects barriers and shields aswell inferno ammo hardly does anything aginist them. And Vanguards not needing warp or throw is your opinion. using my idea of sig ability on diff cd u could use throw to cc some people and then charge in so u wont get shot up as much. And as i said before I ALWAYS charge if they are outta ranged of my eviscerator if not i reave as it does more dmg ccs and heals. But this is ME 3 so reave might not be there so warp takes its place for stripping defences along with my gun obviously.

I understand that you like playing very solidery, being aggressive and not relying on your powers much besides charge
but relying on your weapon for most the fight.
But thats not my playstyle i rely on my weapon and biotics equally. to cc do damage and strip defences. All because this is not your playstyle u dont tell someone they are doing it wrong. that is just childish and immature.

[marshalleck]

lazuli wrote...

I just hope the Vanguard's CQC identity isn't compromised in the process.

It won't be. Christina Norman has tweeted a few times about the Vanguard and charge and it seems like she's pretty happy with the class as it is--and since she's the lead gameplay designer, well, I feel I have some assurance the vanguard will retain its identity. 

I mean really, there's a reason all the default shotguns are named after melee weapons. 

[ramnozack]

lazuli wrote...

If it's any comfort, ramnozack, I believe bonus powers are confirmed for ME3. You might be able to find something that fits your playstyle there.

Ignoring bonus powers in both ME2 and ME3, I'd say that ME3 has a higher chance of giving you the caster Vanguard you want than ME2, if for no other reason than there will be more power evolutions. Maybe one of the new evolutions will do something to Shockwave, Pull, Charge, or whatever other powers the Vanguard might get, to give you what you're looking for.

I just hope the Vanguard's CQC identity isn't compromised in the process.

Christina confirmed bonus powers but we dont know which ones yet.

[ramnozack]

marshalleck wrote...

lazuli wrote...

I just hope the Vanguard's CQC identity isn't compromised in the process.

It won't be. Christina Norman has tweeted a few times about the Vanguard and charge and it seems like she's pretty happy with the class as it is--and since she's the lead gameplay designer, well, I feel I have some assurance the vanguard will retain its identity. 

I mean really, there's a reason all the default shotguns are named after melee weapons. 

I'm not suggesting hiding behind cover and just shooting biotics i would hate that. But you dont need to be at range to use biotics.

[Dave666]

Clonedzero wrote...

yeah, because adding more powers and utility to the vanguard means you cant do it to the other classes as well right?

maybe give classes "too many" abilities so you cant upgrade them all meaning you have to pick and choose abilities on each class.

people are really negative around here huh?

IF and only IF the other classes gained more powers, then yes, I have no problem with it.  In ME:1 Adepts had 6 Biotic abilities and two combat ones.  The Vangard had four Biotic abilities and four Combat ones.  The balance was better in ME:1 than in ME:2 but even in ME:1 it wasn't spot on, the Vangard was only missing two Biotic abilities and one of those could be chosen as a bonus power on start up.

[ramnozack]

Dave666 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

yeah, because adding more powers and utility to the vanguard means you cant do it to the other classes as well right?

maybe give classes "too many" abilities so you cant upgrade them all meaning you have to pick and choose abilities on each class.

people are really negative around here huh?

IF and only IF the other classes gained more powers, then yes, I have no problem with it.  In ME:1 Adepts had 6 Biotic abilities and two combat ones.  The Vangard had four Biotic abilities and four Combat ones.  The balance was better in ME:1 than in ME:2 but even in ME:1 it wasn't spot on, the Vangard was only missing two Biotic abilities and one of those could be chosen as a bonus power on start up.

Christina confirmed every class is getting ATLEAST 1 new power

[Pedro Costa]

Honestly, the biggest problem a Vanguard has is dealing with shields since, natively, all it has that affects them is the SMG.
And even then it's all a matter of how you approach a problem - either pick Tali's Shield Drain, acquire a Sniper and safely go for headshots from a distance, take Zaeed with Squad Disruptor Ammo, or pick either a fully upgraded Eviscerator or the Claymore and shoot them at point blank for maximum damage followed by a melee attack and it'll be like they never had shields to begin with.

So, no, the Vanguard doesn't need more powers as things stand right now.
Still, I'm curious to see whatever Christina Norman has in store for us come ME3, since Vanguard's her favourite class.

[ramnozack]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Honestly, the biggest problem a Vanguard has is dealing with shields since, natively, all it has that affects them is the SMG.
And even then it's all a matter of how you approach a problem - either pick Tali's Shield Drain, acquire a Sniper and safely go for headshots from a distance, take Zaeed with Squad Disruptor Ammo, or pick either a fully upgraded Eviscerator or the Claymore and shoot them at point blank for maximum damage followed by a melee attack and it'll be like they never had shields to begin with.

So, no, the Vanguard doesn't need more powers as things stand right now.
Still, I'm curious to see whatever Christina Norman has in store for us come ME3, since Vanguard's her favourite class.

What happens if theres to many goons with shields say 4-5 u cant just charge in there and point blank shotgun them without dying. just not gonna happen. In ME2 area overload and my area reave usually took down most shields i took a few shot with my eviscerator reloaded real quick charged in and began the process of shotgun to defenceless face.
But idk whats happening with ME 3 im hoping they will add warp atleast maybe throw to if lucky if reave isn't a bonus power

Modifié par ramnozack, 05 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[CajNatalie]

This thread is excrutiating to read...

I'm a biotic specialiser with my Vanguard (Nemesis in ME1, and avoiding Cryo and Claymore in ME2), but I'm looking at Rammy railing on people for being all soldiery with their Vanguards, and thinking... "what the hell?"

I'm not even sure what to say that'll be worth it... this thread ain't going anywhere good.

I really don't understand this fascination with Warp/Throw...

Modifié par CajNatalie, 05 juin 2011 - 05:15 .

[ramnozack]

CajNatalie wrote...

This thread is excrutiating to read...

I'm a biotic specialiser with my Vanguard (Nemesis in ME1, and avoiding Cryo and Claymore in ME2), looking at Rammy railing on people for being all soldiery with their Vanguards, and thinking... "what the hell?"

I'm not even sure what to say that'll be worth it... this thread ain't going anywhere good.

I really don't understand this fascination with Warp/Throw...

Just how am i yelling at people all i did was suggest warp/throw then other people said if ur not chargin 100% of the time you aint playing it right. if u have nothing constructive to add to the thread just stop posting here please

[CajNatalie]

You were using the soldiery argument against people who use Inferno ammo for armor stripping, too.

Anyway, you want something constructive (not forgetting that I've already contributed in an earlier page)...?
I'll half-ass something for you...

Minus signature, here are the Adept Powers...
Throw
Warp
Pull
Shockwave
That's 4 powers.
You already have 2 of them on the Vanguard (notice that it's an even split with Vanguard and Sentinel - they each get 2 different pairs for a reason)... now you're demanding the other two.
Uniqueness of playing the class is almost gone... all that's left that would make them unique is Charge, and you complain that charge-only styles are bad, but a charge-only style would be the only way to feel like you were playing anything other than an Adept Plus.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 05 juin 2011 - 05:20 .

[ramnozack]

CajNatalie wrote...

You were using the soldiery argument against people who use Inferno ammo for armor stripping, too.

Anyway, you want something constructive (not forgetting that I've already contributed in an earlier page)...?
I'll half-ass something for you...

Minus signature, here are the Adept Powers...
Throw
Warp
Pull
Shockwave
That's 4 powers.
You already have 2 of them on the Vanguard (notice that it's an even split with Vanguard and Sentinel - they each get 2 different pairs for a reason)... now you're demanding the other two.
Uniqueness of playing the class is almost gone... all that's left that would make them unique is Charge, and you complain that charge-only styles are bad, but a charge-only style would be the only way to feel like you were playing anything other than an Adept Plus.

Obviously u skipped all the thread and went straight to page 5. We are talkin about ME 3 not ME 2. They could be all kinds of possible changes for every class in ME 3 but we dont know yet. Go read the rest of the thread so we can have a decent conversation please

[TheBestClass]

Couldn't this all be solved by just making Shockwave useful?

[Bozorgmehr]

This isn't about 'right' or 'wrong' - it's about a design decision. BW chose a class system which means every class should have their own specific strengths and weaknesses. It's also about forcing or at least encouraging players to use the powers available to them. Your argument about Warp and Throw is exactly like saying the Adept would be nice with Charge and the Claymore. Both 'options' destroy the class system. It can't be done whilst keeping different classes.

I also recommend to check the strategy section b/c Vanguards have no problems dealing with 4-5 closely packed enemies (who are a very rare sight in ME2 btw). Inferno Ammo works through defenses and will have all nearby enemies do the fire-dance; or use your squadmates' powers and Pull/Shockwave to give you an edge (both Warp and Throw don't make any difference).

Can you explain why you want Warp if you're going to use it to strip defenses? Warp is single target, Reave has an AoE version which is superior when it comes to defense-stripping. Why do you want Throw? You can knock enemies down (or off the map if you use Pull first), just like Throw does, and SW has a much larger AoE. You can also use Slam bonus power if you prefer a quick CC power.

Everything you want from your Vanguard is already possible in ME2; why ruin the entire class system for powers which are close to redundant on a Vanguard anyway?

[edit] Talking about ME3 is silly - nobody knows which powers will be available to each class and what they can do (we also know little to nothing about the enemies Shep will be facing). Maybe the E3 gameplay videos give us a better picture. It's also worth mentioning ME2 is designed around Normal, not Insanity - do you still think Throw and Warp add something to the Vanguard class on Normal?

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 05 juin 2011 - 05:39 .

[Pedro Costa]

ramnozack wrote...

What happens if theres to many goons with shields say 4-5 u cant just charge in there and point blank shotgun them without dying. just not gonna happen. In ME2 area overload and my area reave usually took down most shields i took a few shot with my eviscerator reloaded real quick charged in and began the process of shotgun to defenceless face.
But idk whats happening with ME 3 im hoping they will add warp atleast maybe throw to if lucky if reave isn't a bonus power

I didn't know warp and throw are effective at stripping shields, WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME THIS?! /sarcasm

You're right, you can't (better said, shouldn't) charge four or five guys.
Hence why you have SMGs and all the other options I mentioned, thin their defenses and only then charge. If you know this basic thing, why do you want more?
Also why I said that shield stripping abilities are the only thing ANYONE can accuse of being lacking in Vanguards. Still, don't see how warp and throw help there.

As said before, what you want is an adept or a sentinel with a cool name and a shotgun. The latter you can get, the former, cool names aren't everything.

[CajNatalie]

@Rammy...
I did read. But remember, I said I half-assed it.

Now if we're talking about ME3, and the idea that every class is getting 1 new power...
Then wouldn't it be better and make a lot more sense and balance if it were an additional hybrid power?

Combat
Combat
Signature
Biotic
Biotic
...is the current setup
As they're supposed to be a hybrid, they should be getting a hybrid power, I suppose this would be like having two signatures. Every class with two signatures sounds a lot better than tossing in Throw (if you want knockdown you already have Shockwave) or Warp (you have a passive attack boost and Inferno ammo to help with protections already; but most importantly what's the point in having two armor strippers?).

Also, why must you continue to be so harsh with the way you say things?
You rail at people to get out of your thread and talk down to people like you're taking this all way too seriously.
If I were in your position, of creating a thread, and watching it get torn apart by just about everyone... I'd kill the thread, move on, and consider my viewpoints.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 05 juin 2011 - 05:32 .

[lazuli]

ramnozack wrote...

all because u have warp doesn't mean u hide in cover like adept u could use it while fighting in CQC as stagger and damage. You cant just go around telling people if you dont do it your way your wrong thats just incredibly dumb.
And you forget the fact im talkin about ME 3. In me2 my playstyle is ALMOST what i want it to be i just lack throw.
If u read back into the forum im talkin about each class having his signature ability in a diff cd to use his other biotics aswell as charge. Inferno ammo just doesn't cut it. It only affects armor warp affects barriers and shields aswell inferno ammo hardly does anything aginist them.

Fine, but what gameplay systems and elements are going to be there to encourage your Vanguard to use Warp in CQC?  You seem to know what you want, but you're not doing a good job of diplomatically phrasing it or accounting for more variables than "I want X.  If you don't want X or disagree, you are childish and immature."

Also, Warp affects barriers and armor, not barriers and shields.  It does minor damage against shields and will be red when targeting an enemy with shields.  I would argue Inferno Ammo is more effective against enemies with shields than Warp, as you could get an area effect panic even through defenses.  Warp just deals minor damage and staggers.

[Leonia]

Wow OP, your smugness is NOT helping you here. We can't talk about ME3 because we don't have enough information regarding ME3.

[Pedro Costa]

Just leaving it here. OP really needs it.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 05 juin 2011 - 05:38 .

[ramnozack]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

This isn't about 'right' or 'wrong' - it's about a design decision. BW chose a class system which means every class should have their own specific strengths and weaknesses. It's also about forcing or at least encouraging players to use the powers available to them. Your argument about Warp and Throw is exactly like saying the Adept would be nice with Charge and the Claymore. Both 'options' destroy the class system. It can't be done whilst keeping different classes.

I also recommend to check the strategy section b/c Vanguards have no problems dealing with 4-5 closely packed enemies (who are a very rare sight in ME2 btw). Inferno Ammo works through defenses and will have all nearby enemies do the fire-dance; or use your squadmates' powers and Pull/Shockwave to give you an edge (both Warp and Throw don't make any difference).

Can you explain why you want Warp if you're going to use it to strip defenses? Warp is single target, Reave has an AoE version which is superior when it comes to defense-stripping. Why do you want Throw? You can knock enemies down (or off the map if you use Pull first), just like Throw does, and SW has a much larger AoE. You can also use Slam bonus power if you prefer a quick CC power.

Everything you want from your Vanguard is already possible in ME2; why ruin the entire class system for powers which are close to redundant on a Vanguard anyway?

First off THIS THREAD is about ME 3 not ME 2 second i never said 4-5 enemies had to be right next to each other
third i want warp because reave might not be in ME 3 and throw because it just makes sense. Christina already confirmed atleast 1 new power for each class im suggesting some. You have some problem that u cant get ME 2 out of your head and think about ME 3. More evolutions and more new powers will let the Adept keep its uniqueness read my earlier posts for details about it.

[marshalleck]

DarkLord_PT wrote...


Just leaving it here. OP really needs it.

I love this image so much 

[ramnozack]

leonia42 wrote...

Wow OP, your smugness is NOT helping you here. We can't talk about ME3 because we don't have enough information regarding ME3.

Im giving ideas im not giving facts dude. Again Christina said all classes get atleast 1 new power so im suggesting a few. also darklord funny picture but it aint my playstyle

[lazuli]

ramnozack wrote...
 i want warp because reave might not be in ME 3 and throw because it just makes sense.

I don't see how it "just makes sense."  Vanguards can already push things over with Charge.

It has been confirmed that class builds will remain more or less the same.  We'll start in ME3 with a power level around where we left off in ME2, for instance.  I don't know if this means that the ME3 builds will look like ME2 build + new power(s), though.  Regardless, you're ignoring the Adept-Sentinel-Vanguard dynamic that Caj brought up:

Adept: Pull, Shockwave, Warp, Throw
Sentinel: Warp, Throw
Vanguard: Pull, Shockwave