79 réponses à ce sujet

[Slainangel52]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Discobird wrote...

DW warriors can tank without hurting their DPS. Rogues can't do this all the time since they need their targets to face the other way (Coup de Grace only goes so far...)

Eh? Duelist > Pinpoint strikes. Also combine with paralyze runes in each dagger and you'll be able to crit/backstab nearly everyhit against a boss even when going toe to toe. Also a warrior can't really touch a rogues damage because of the backstab/crit damage. They also get evasion which helps them avoid a great deal of damage and throw in the fact most rogues use massive armor to.

Here's the situation as a DW dagger rogue...

Mark of death > pinpoint strikes > daggers critting for 90+. Daggers hit considerably faster than longswords/axes/maces. Anything that lives long enough for your pinpoint strikes to wear off will get screwed by paralyze runes in your weapons.

I haven't seen the Blood Magic Talents for the Rogue class... so... unless I find out what those are
then

First is faster speed in stealth and better evasion the other is +damage to weapons... which could easily put dagger backstabs over 100 but it drains health to and already hitting 90's is completely overkill.

Nothing says the warrior can't use daggers as well. Right now I'm running a level 8 Berserker dagger warrior. Momentum/Dual Striking/Berserk. When all is said and done she usually hits for around 55-65 damage or more with dagger speeds.

The berserker damage buff doesnt seem to change with weapon speed. When I picked it up it added 8.4 per hand whether I used a slower 1h or a dagger. (Baseline was 12 or so, making berserker roughly a 67% increase in damage per hand when using daggers)   Because of this using daggers on the warrior with berserk is a nice benefit. Being that this is at level 8, I can only imagine what it's going to be like when I've leveled and get to flesh out talents/stats and gear.

You also need to take into account the fact that backstabs wont include rune damage, normal warrior attacks will, the same is true for mage weapon buffs of an elemental nature.

[Discobird]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

I find the berserker spec better overall for murdering enemies than anything rogues can do. Backstabbing just isn't that impressive compared to Berserk+Dual Striking for example. I wasn't having any issue hitting combined damage totals of 100+ by level 7 with tier 2-3 weapons with that combo.

I don't know about you but Dual Striking causes about half my attacks to whiff completely (not even a "MISS" message). Which sorta ruins the point.

[Discobird]

Slainangel52 wrote...

The berserker damage buff doesnt seem to change with weapon speed. When I picked it up it added 8.4 per hand whether I used a slower 1h or a dagger. (Baseline was 12 or so, making berserker roughly a 67% increase in damage per hand when using daggers)   Because of this using daggers on the warrior with berserk is a nice benefit. Being that this is at level 8, I can only imagine what it's going to be like when I've leveled and get to flesh out talents/stats and gear.

Berserk is a flat +8 damage per hit, doesn't seem to scale at all from what I can tell from the code.

You also need to take into account the fact that backstabs wont include rune damage, normal warrior attacks will, the same is true for mage weapon buffs of an elemental nature.

I think you meant to say that backstab won't multiply rune damage? Because backstabs definitely triggers rune damage and weapon buffs.

[Slainangel52]

Discobird wrote...

Slainangel52 wrote...

The berserker damage buff doesnt seem to change with weapon speed. When I picked it up it added 8.4 per hand whether I used a slower 1h or a dagger. (Baseline was 12 or so, making berserker roughly a 67% increase in damage per hand when using daggers)   Because of this using daggers on the warrior with berserk is a nice benefit. Being that this is at level 8, I can only imagine what it's going to be like when I've leveled and get to flesh out talents/stats and gear.

Berserk is a flat +8 damage per hit, doesn't seem to scale at all from what I can tell from the code.

You also need to take into account the fact that backstabs wont include rune damage, normal warrior attacks will, the same is true for mage weapon buffs of an elemental nature.

I think you meant to say that backstab won't multiply rune damage? Because backstabs definitely triggers rune damage and weapon buffs.

I never saw the rune damage when I was on my rogue playthrough, it couldve been the one case where the damage didnt show up seperately. Because of this I stopped using them entirely and went with paralysis runes.  I don't know about berserker scaling as I've only just started using it. Either way 8 per hit on a faster weapon is better than 8 per hit on a slower weapon, scaling or not. This bonus is something a rogue does not recieve at all in any case.

[Discobird]

Rune damage is definitely there on backstabs. I noticed sometimes the game does not display all the floaties when you have a lot going on at once. If you disable all the floaties except your own damage ones and pause the game after hitting, you'll see the rune damage pop up.

[Slainangel52]

Discobird wrote...

Rune damage is definitely there on backstabs. I noticed sometimes the game does not display all the floaties when you have a lot going on at once. If you disable all the floaties except your own damage ones and pause the game after hitting, you'll see the rune damage pop up.

Mine never seemed to show up so I just figured it was a limitation of the backstab mechanic. A combat log would do wonders in this regard to see exactly what was going on.

I'm curious what you know about dual striking, the functionality seems to be that you just hit with both weapons every time instead of 1. Effectively generating double damage if you've got the proper talents and totally equal weapons. This also means you're getting a lot more from the berserker buff. 16 dmg per swing and runes on the offhand would be getting double the use as well.

[Discobird]

Yeah, when Dual Striking hits it basically just attacks with both weapons simultaneously. So you get rune damage from both main hand and offhand, berserk would do +16 damage instead of +8, etc. Too bad it whiffs like a mother.

[Slainangel52]

Discobird wrote...

Yeah, when Dual Striking hits it basically just attacks with both weapons simultaneously. So you get rune damage from both main hand and offhand, berserk would do +16 damage instead of +8, etc. Too bad it whiffs like a mother.

People keep saying that but I haven't really noticed it occuring. Sometimes there are a few strings of misses but overall I find it doesn't miss anymore than normal swings seem to.  I have noticed that when it does miss, the game doesn't show that via the floatinig text, it's just an empty air whiff.

[Discobird]

Slainangel52 wrote...

Discobird wrote...

Yeah, when Dual Striking hits it basically just attacks with both weapons simultaneously. So you get rune damage from both main hand and offhand, berserk would do +16 damage instead of +8, etc. Too bad it whiffs like a mother.

People keep saying that but I haven't really noticed it occuring. Sometimes there are a few strings of misses but overall I find it doesn't miss anymore than normal swings seem to.  I have noticed that when it does miss, the game doesn't show that via the floatinig text, it's just an empty air whiff.

I just did some informal testing with my lvl 16 guinea pig rogue against some wolves in the Brecilian Forest.

Test #1: dual daggers; Dueling and Heroic Offense active; 129 attack.  I hit 20/20 frontal attacks.

Test #2: same as above except I also turned on Dual Striking.  Still had 129 attack.  This time I only landed 12/20 frontal attacks.  The other eight whiffed completely (no "miss" message).

The wolves didn't use any debuffs on me or anything else that could explain these results.  It's weird.

[Crackseed]

I'm assuming you can also choose to pick up poison crafting for a warrior too as well yes? Which would give you the deathroot poisons for extra stun potential.

[T0rin3]

Poor neglected Strength rogues.. all this conversation and not a single mention of them.



Anyways, the only reason to go Warrior over Rogue is for Taunt and Threaten. If you don't plan to main tank with this character, then no, there is no reason to play DW warrior, because your Rogue can pretty much do 100% backstabs. If you do plan to main tank, you should definitely be warrior, for the 2 aggro generating abilities. (which are key to main tanking IMO, and nothing a rogue has can replace them)

[Slainangel52]

Discobird wrote...

Slainangel52 wrote...

Discobird wrote...

Yeah, when Dual Striking hits it basically just attacks with both weapons simultaneously. So you get rune damage from both main hand and offhand, berserk would do +16 damage instead of +8, etc. Too bad it whiffs like a mother.

People keep saying that but I haven't really noticed it occuring. Sometimes there are a few strings of misses but overall I find it doesn't miss anymore than normal swings seem to.  I have noticed that when it does miss, the game doesn't show that via the floatinig text, it's just an empty air whiff.

I just did some informal testing with my lvl 16 guinea pig rogue against some wolves in the Brecilian Forest.

Test #1: dual daggers; Dueling and Heroic Offense active; 129 attack.  I hit 20/20 frontal attacks.

Test #2: same as above except I also turned on Dual Striking.  Still had 129 attack.  This time I only landed 12/20 frontal attacks.  The other eight whiffed completely (no "miss" message).

The wolves didn't use any debuffs on me or anything else that could explain these results.  It's weird.

strange, i'll pay closer attention to how often I miss to see if it's that much. Though I feel like if it was nearly 50% miss rate it would be hard to miss.

I don't suppose there is any indication in the code that shows a hidden attack penalty or something.

Modifié par Slainangel52, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:13 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

Discobird wrote...

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

I find the berserker spec better overall for murdering enemies than anything rogues can do. Backstabbing just isn't that impressive compared to Berserk+Dual Striking for example. I wasn't having any issue hitting combined damage totals of 100+ by level 7 with tier 2-3 weapons with that combo.

I don't know about you but Dual Striking causes about half my attacks to whiff completely (not even a "MISS" message). Which sorta ruins the point.

I've only seen what you speak of a barehandful of times.  And as far as I can tell, it's just an extra animation being played, not actually a lost attack. The damage numbers still come at precise intervals, but occasionally the character will swing at around the halway mark on the swing timer for no effect.  I could well be wrong, but that's what it always looked like to me.

[xxkielioxx]

Frankly, it's all about using a DW Warrior with Champion's Warcry (including the tier 4 passive). This makes actually controlling a DW Warrior awesome. (I'm on my second playthrough as an evil dwarf Berserker/Champion on hard difficulty with Shale, Zevran, and Morrigan, and I'm loving it a lot more than my first playthrough as a mage)

[Discobird]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

I've only seen what you speak of a barehandful of times.  And as far as I can tell, it's just an extra animation being played, not actually a lost attack. The damage numbers still come at precise intervals, but occasionally the character will swing at around the halway mark on the swing timer for no effect.  I could well be wrong, but that's what it always looked like to me.

For me at least, it's definitely not just a matter of the animations being off. I used the damage floaties to tell whiffs apart from hits/misses. When it whiffs there's no floaty at all.

[hexaligned]

I agree a DW tank would be the only reason to (other than rp ones) that being said DW tanks are completely viable, even on nightmare (and quite fun)

[DrekorSilverfang]

T0rin3 wrote...

Poor neglected Strength rogues.. all this conversation and not a single mention of them.

Anyways, the only reason to go Warrior over Rogue is for Taunt and Threaten. If you don't plan to main tank with this character, then no, there is no reason to play DW warrior, because your Rogue can pretty much do 100% backstabs. If you do plan to main tank, you should definitely be warrior, for the 2 aggro generating abilities. (which are key to main tanking IMO, and nothing a rogue has can replace them)

Even if you plan to tank you can do it better as a rogue than DW warrior. You'll take less damage on the rogue not to mention because of your damage you'll be able to hold aggro through sheer DPS. I was playing around with a DW warrior and it might get up to the same level if you use beserker/reaver along with the blood power all going at the same time but a rogue does it without all that. And if your running all those then your stripping your own HP away very quick and you'll likely have less defense and evasion anyways.

[Nooneyouknow13]

Discobird wrote...

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...

I've only seen what you speak of a barehandful of times.  And as far as I can tell, it's just an extra animation being played, not actually a lost attack. The damage numbers still come at precise intervals, but occasionally the character will swing at around the halway mark on the swing timer for no effect.  I could well be wrong, but that's what it always looked like to me.

For me at least, it's definitely not just a matter of the animations being off. I used the damage floaties to tell whiffs apart from hits/misses. When it whiffs there's no floaty at all.

Ok, I'm seeing it now that I started an elf.  Jumping between an elf warrior and a human warrior, the human missed an attack with no feedback very rarely, but the elf is going a 2/3rds miss rate with it.

[Rynas]

Discobird wrote...

Slainangel52 wrote...

Discobird wrote...

Yeah, when Dual Striking hits it basically just attacks with both weapons simultaneously. So you get rune damage from both main hand and offhand, berserk would do +16 damage instead of +8, etc. Too bad it whiffs like a mother.

People keep saying that but I haven't really noticed it occuring. Sometimes there are a few strings of misses but overall I find it doesn't miss anymore than normal swings seem to.  I have noticed that when it does miss, the game doesn't show that via the floatinig text, it's just an empty air whiff.

I just did some informal testing with my lvl 16 guinea pig rogue against some wolves in the Brecilian Forest.

Test #1: dual daggers; Dueling and Heroic Offense active; 129 attack.  I hit 20/20 frontal attacks.

Test #2: same as above except I also turned on Dual Striking.  Still had 129 attack.  This time I only landed 12/20 frontal attacks.  The other eight whiffed completely (no "miss" message).

The wolves didn't use any debuffs on me or anything else that could explain these results.  It's weird.

Did it take the same amount of time to execute those 20 attacks?

[mirglip]

I have a dwarf dw warrior and I keep zeverin in my party at all times. So I have the best of both worlds. Dwarf Dual wielding is fun to watch also

[sinosleep]

A dw warrior can run in, taunt, whirl wind, dual weapon sweep, and kill 5 mobs in the time it takes a rogue to kill 1. So yeah, it's plenty viable.

[WillieStyle]

People tend to overestimate the in-game contribution of backstabbing to dps.

In DA:O (unlike in WoW for instance) your character cannot walk and attack at the same time. This means that you lose up to a second or two of dps time strafing around into flanking position. For the vast majority of mobs, dual weapon sweep and whirlwind are enough to drop them so low that 2 auto attacks will kill them. In those situations, it's actually a dps loss to circle around them to backstab. A rogue is better off attacking from the front and killing them with normal attacks.



So for the vast majority of fights in this game (tons of melee mobs swarming you) backstabbing gives no dps boost what so ever. In fact it gets worse because Berserking applies to all attacks including specials I believe. Between berserking and the warrior's innate damage advantage, dw warriors are for more likely to get to the point where dw sweep and whirlwind combined are enough to kill all melee mobs. At that point, the warriors "effective" dps (defined as the time required to defeat all enemies) is actually greater than that of the rogue.



The situations where a rogue outshines a warrior are:

-Individual mobs spread out and stunned.

-Elite mob with enough hitpoints that it cannot be burst down by a special/auto attack combo (mostly yellow-red mages).

-Bosses.



However, so many bosses in this game are anit-melee or immune to backstabs that the dw rogue's signature advantage is severely diluted.



TL;DR version:

Rogues slightly better on bosses, warriors slightly better everywhere else.

[Titius.Vibius]

WillieStyle wrote...

People tend to overestimate the in-game contribution of backstabbing to dps.
In DA:O (unlike in WoW for instance) your character cannot walk and attack at the same time. This means that you lose up to a second or two of dps time strafing around into flanking position. For the vast majority of mobs, dual weapon sweep and whirlwind are enough to drop them so low that 2 auto attacks will kill them. In those situations, it's actually a dps loss to circle around them to backstab. A rogue is better off attacking from the front and killing them with normal attacks.

Wrong. If you configure your tank like Sten's heavy armor doning with taunt and threaten, focus would generally be on him thereby giving you ample time to position and backstab away. A rogue is better in a flanking position and more surviveable if he has limited constitution.

[WillieStyle]

If you configure your tank like Sten's heavy armor doning with taunt and threaten, focus would generally be on him thereby giving you ample time to position and backstab away.

Sigh!
What do taunt and threaten have to do with anything? My post assumes your tank has permanent aggro anyway.
Even if your tank has aggro, moving your rogue into flanking position to backstab is still a dps loss.
In the time it takes you to position, you could have simply killed the vast majority of melee mobs with dw sweep and whirlwind combined with an auto-attack or two. The warrior wouldn't even need to auto-attack.
The problem gets even worse when you start dealing with archers/mages who tend to spread out. Unless you can stun/incapacitate them all (and your rogue has coup de grace) the dw warrior will have an even bigger dps advantage.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 20 décembre 2009 - 11:51 .

[kidnotorious15]

Do remember that DW warriors not only excel in single DPS but also in AOE. As a DW warrior, I was able to contribute 62% of the damage of the party. I happen to not need Allistair at all, but I still kept him for just for his dialogues. All I have to do is use Morrigan to cast cone of cold then all my warrior has to do is cast Sweep + Whirlwind = WIN.

I would also like to add that I had all the best gear in the game I can find, that includes the one from the Shale DLC and Warden's keep.