79 réponses à ce sujet

[shaktiboy]

 The decision is a simple one. First off, both of your choices would be equally excellent in terms of DPS and survivability. The real differences center around utility and degree of micromanagement during battle:

DW Warrior (Momentum + Berserk + Perfect Striking)

• No lockpicking, no trap detection/disarming.
• No stealth for scouting ahead and detecting/disarming traps, no ability to cut and run via combat by going into stealth to run away or let enemy's hate refocus on your tank.
• Weaker stealing ability (esp from yellows/oranges and during combat)
• Better AOE versus whites (which is 90% of your total fighting). As person above pointed out, in the time a rogue might kill one or two whites, you've killed 5+ whites.
• No micromanagement required to do maximum damage/usefulness during fights.
• No time/damage "wasted" getting into position for flanking bonuses--if you charge immediately into the fray and attract many foes face-to-face your total DPS goes UP. If a rogue tries this, their DPS goes DOWN (and they're much squisher in this situation unless they are a high DEX rogue).

DW Rogue (CUN dagger/dagger)

• You can lockpick chests and disarm traps.
• You can scout with stealth (helps with finding/disarming traps, planning your battle tactics, positioning yourself to take out the mage or archer in the back very quick and early in the fight, saving grief for your teammates), and you can get out of trouble (iffy; not 100%) by dropping into stealth mid combat if needed.
• You have a stronger stealing ability, enabling you to steal from yellows and oranges even in combat.
• Although you can easily grab the same AOE skills as a warrior (you both go for Momentum + Whirlwind), you can't put yourself in the position to maximize AOE damage as often or as safely. Your role is single-target DPS.
• Tons of micromanagement. You are actively lockpicking, scouting with stealth, stealing, even during combat, disarming traps, and...
• Most importantly, you are constantly manually moving around to get into a good flanking position, so you're losing out on a lot of DPS potential because of all the moving around.  I don't care how well your tank is set to taunt via tactics, etc.--you are still going to waste a LOT of time getting into flanking position. If you are controlling another character, your tactics AI is NOT smart enough to make you flank most of the time (even with the excellent mod called "Advanced Tactics"). So the end result is that in any fight where you need to occasionally micromanage another character, your total theoretically DPS goes way way down because your rogue AI is just frontal attacking most of the time.

DW Rogue (DEX dagger/dagger)

A lot of the same comments as for the CUN dagger/dagger above with two important differences:

• First, you don't care about positioning/flanking nearly as much, so your overall DPS across most fights is higher, similar to a DW warrior (and you can do a lot more AOE more safely). This also means much less micromanagement because AI-controlled frontal attacks are just fine. Your single target DPS is actually not that far behind a CUN rogue in most fights unless the CUN rogue has a party setup that is stacking as much +ATK on him as possible.
• You will need more skill points invested in Lockpicking, Stealing, Traps, and Coercion to make up for having far less CUN.

Whether you go with DW warrior or DW DEX rogue, don't be confused into thinking you need much STR at all if you go dual daggers. With two daggers, DEX is superior to STR in many ways: you get more useful bonuses per point of DEX. Take as little STR as possible to equip the end-game weapons you plan to use. This means T7 light armor even for the DW warrior. IMO massive armors are really only useful for 2H and Tank warriors.

Modifié par shaktiboy, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:17 .

[Drunkencelt]

I prefer dw warrior or str rogues, because the daggers in this game suck big time. You also needs 31 str to wield Starfang. My str rogue still does same damage as any other build, just less stats to mess around with.

[De Bartman]

Discobird wrote...

As for paralyze runes, I've tried them and haven't found much use for them tbh, even with Momentum'd dual

Strange, I stacked my dagger with 3 paralysing runes (grandmaster,master and journeyman) and it triggererd quite often. Even the bosses. I played on normal difficulty. maybe that has something to do with it.

3 paralysing runes are a loss from a DPS perspective but  your opponent cannot hit back which makes you can backstab (coup de grace) THAT much longer.  for instance...Loghain or Arl Howe never got to use any hit or ability  because the runes activiated and I got to keep backstabbing.

[xavan512]

I don't understand why people think warriors do better at dps. Below are the "arguments" that I have seen:

-My warrior does better AOE DPS and most fights are multiple mobs!!!
If a rogue wants, he/she can spec duelist and equip dual swords in weapon swap. Not only that, but he can activate pinpoint strikes and guarantee that dual weapon sweep and whirlwind crit.  Guaranteed crits with the same damage as a dual wielding warrior?  Seems like rogues have more potential in the aoe department.

But but... warriors have berserk and blood frenzy!
Well you obviously haven't played a rogue...Rogues have song of courage, tainted blood, mark of death, and exploit weakness which results in greater bonus damage.

Oh yeah? Well warriors have greater dps potential when standing in front of a mob!!!
If your standing in front of a mob as a rogue, you are doing it wrong...

But warriors can use dual daggers too! (Is this really even an argument?) Also you lose your "aoe superiority"

Warriors can just stack strength! 
Okay, then you will be a paper tank, and in rebuttle...rogues can just stack cunning... with only a few points in dex (which boosts damage anyways).

Warriors are easier to play and don't require micro management!
This is absolutely true! You got me, if you clicking once or twice and watching everything die...then warrior is for you. If you like an interactive approach of stealth, laying traps, disarming traps, throwing grenades, weapon swapping for aoe goodness, pickpocketing, more quests, lock picking, flanking and more...then rogue is for you!

Not to hate on warriors, but as said before by some...the reason to pick a warrior is not for dps, it is for tanking. Or if you are a person who doesn't care about these dumb arguments and just want to play the game for fun.  If you are a "hardcore" spreadsheet min/maxer then you should pick a rogue for dps.

Modifié par xavan512, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:02 .

[MarcAntony]

this ^

[Tonya777]

I didn't read anything but the OP



But yes you're missing something



DW warriors done right do damage equal to or more than a good rogue , I've done 2 great rogues and 1 great DW warrior and the DW warrior by endgame could lash out 70+ dmg per hit and higher than that with berserk on , which is about the same as a good rogue by endgame



Tbh I think the DWW actually did more DPS

[PatchWorks]

Five words for why a DW warrior will always be better than a DW Rogue in pure combat:



{One Hundred Percent Spell Immunity}



Being able to shrug off CoC, Firestorms, Misdirection Hexes, Crushing Prisons, stamina draining chain lightnings, etc. beats the minor edge rogue might have against single targets (minor being it may or may not take a few seconds more for the warrior to kill a single target as opposed to the rogue).



With the fix to deathblow, in fact, DW sweep spamming from warriors became even more deadly, along with making holy smite more viable for CC, let alone Warcry for warriors choosing the champion route.



The only reason to take a rogue DW over a warrior would be for the utility outside of combat like picking locks, stealing, stealth nades, etc. But frankly, that's what Leiliana or Zevran are for.

[MarcAntony]

Tonya777 wrote...

I didn't read anything but the OP

But yes you're missing something

DW warriors done right do damage equal to or more than a good rogue , I've done 2 great rogues and 1 great DW warrior and the DW warrior by endgame could lash out 70+ dmg per hit and higher than that with berserk on , which is about the same as a good rogue by endgame

Tbh I think the DWW actually did more DPS

Not quite - my end-game Rogue did 110/hit, not counting runes/mage enchantments.  Properly played & specc'ed/geared Rogues do around 20-25% more dps. 

Modifié par MarcAntony, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:56 .

[tigr3ton]

How much damage can make a dw rogue at level 20 playing on nightmare?
My dw warrior does about 433.000 and she is an elf, she doesn't use poisons, bloodthirst (warden's keep talent) and usually she doesn't wear helmet ( I mean you can get better damage with other warrior than mine).


I like a lot my rogue but my dw warrior does about 100.000 more damge than my rogue at level 20 playing on nightmare.

(Dw warrior: starfang/keening blade, Dw rogue: rose of thorn/edge).

Modifié par tigr3ton, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:04 .

[XOGHunter246]

My rogue can take small group by himself he has lot of Dex and cunning and strength and stealth help me a lot if it all too much. But a DW warrior does have better agro management talents but i found a DW warrior boring compared to a rogue.

[MarcAntony]

How on earth is that? You must not be backstabbing is all I can think.



Can you make a video for us?



My friend also plays DA:O and we both had lvl23 end-game toons last week, mine Rogue - his Warrior, and his Warrior had every weapon known in the game and was built perfectly, but couldn't match the damage of the backstabbing Rogue, no matter the situation.



I mean, I have no vested interest other than to know whats true. I am a dpsaholic, and if a Warrior actually can do more dps, then I'd be very interested in seeing it.

[Dark83]

Rogues don't have too much trouble attacking things head on, if the others are set to support. Petrify, Paralyze, Crushing Prison, Scattershot, Mind Blast, and so forth... I open with Riposte or Dirty Fighting, and generally don't need to waste time maneuvering much since the warrior behind me delayed his charge to turn on Berserk, and the other enemies all ran past me.

[XOGHunter246]

rogue ofc do more damage backstabbing but there are sometimes points in game where one or two enemies will run at you and you have no choice but to attack full on or if tank somehow dies. My rouge has no issue fighting head on anyway.

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:36 .

[Zecele]

Five words for why a DW warrior will always be better than a DW Rogue in pure combat:







{One Hundred Percent Spell Immunity}

Where do they get 100% spell immunity from?

[XOGHunter246]

Equips and enchantment and templar spec for warrior but saying it 100% does not mean they cannot hit you well i still got some hits when i tried with my warrior.

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:58 .

[xavan512]

five words why 100% spell immunity is irrelevant for rogues.

rogues are invisible to mages.
sneak up on one...equip concentrated death root poison and the dead thiag shanker...and you have a dead mage before he can cast. Or just have morrigan cast mana clash...mages in this game are largely irrelevant.

100% spell immunity is for feeling cheesy or tanking...

once again roll a warrior if you want to tank or have good but hands off dps
roll a rogue if you want to play a very high but hands on dps

Modifié par xavan512, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:56 .

[Zecele]

Equips and enchantment and templar spec for warrior but saying it 100% does not mean they cannot hit you well i still got some hits when i tried with my warrior.

I'm just asking but from what I've read on Templar spec it gives a passive bonus to mental resist not spells overall. Unless we're discussing disables.

five words why 100% spell immunity is irrelevant for rogues.



rogues are invisible to mages.

Yeah but sometimes there is more than 1 mage. You take out the 1st one pretty easy but the second one always gets off a disable on you before you can stealth again.

[PatchWorks]

I have three words for Xavan512:

Straw Man Argument

Rogues are not immune to mages. I don't care how much stealth you have, a DPS specced rogue will NEVER go through a game without having been CCd or otherwise incapacitated by a mage, or with their weak physical resist knocked down by a warrior or Overwhelmed by a spider,wolf, etc.

The only rogues who will ever be "invisible" to mages are solo specced rogues, and those are NOT going to be played or geared for DPS.

Frankly, I doubt whether you are serious about adding constructively to the dialogue with your ridiculous straw man arguments for rogues.

But if you really want to argue about combat utility, why don't you address whether a rogue is even needed at all. Any kind of Warrior will always have a place in an efficient non-solo group if for no other reason than they can taunt. If ultra DPS is absolutely necessary, than a mage would be WAAAAY more effective than the best backstab rogue. Combine that with the fact that a spell immunity warrior has nothing to fear from mage friendly fire (Templar warrior can easily taunt a group of enemies together for a mage to Storm of the Century or Cone of Cold while maintaining their own DPS) and you can see which is the most efficient class combo. To be honest, rogues really have no place in this game except as chest opening monkeys or to disable traps, neither of which is absolutely necessary (gold is prevalent enough without the crappy merchant trash in locked chests, and traps are not particularly deadly that their damage can't be out-healed when triggered).

xavan512 wrote...

roll a rogue if you want to play a very high but hands on dps

You should have written "Roll a MAGE if you want to play a very high but hands on DPS"

Zecele wrote...

Equips and
enchantment and templar spec for warrior but saying it 100% does not
mean they cannot hit you well i still got some hits when i tried with
my warrior.

I'm just asking but from what I've read
on Templar spec it gives a passive bonus to mental resist not spells
overall. Unless we're discussing disables.

Templar spec allows you to wear Knight-Commander armor.  Combine that with Spellward amulet and runes and you have complete immunity to spells.  You don't even need to add a single talent point to any templar skills.data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABgAAAAYCAYAAADgdz34AAADsElEQVR4nK2VTW9VVRSGn33OPgWpYLARbKWhQlCHTogoSkjEkQwclEQcNJEwlfgD/AM6NBo1xjhx5LyJ0cYEDHGkJqhtBGKUpm3SFii3vb2956wPB/t+9raEgSs52fuus89613rftdcNH8/c9q9++oe/Vzb5P+3McyNcfm2CcPj9af9w6gwjTwzvethx3Bx3x8xwd1wNM8dMcTNUHTfFLPnX6nVmZpeIYwf3cWD/PhbrvlPkblAzVFurKS6GmmGqqComaS+qmBoTI0Ncu3mXuGvWnrJ+ZSxweDgnkHf8ndVTdbiT3M7cQp2Z31dRTecHAfqydp4ejhwazh6Zezfnu98E1WIQwB3crEuJ2Y45PBTAQUVR9X4At66AppoEVO1Q8sgAOKJJjw6Am6OquDmvHskZ3R87gW+vlHz98zpmiqphkkRVbQtsfPTOC30lJKFbFTgp83bWh7Zx/uX1B6w3hI3NkkZTqEpBRDBRzG2AQHcwcYwEkOGkTERREbLQ/8HxJwuW7zdYrzfZ2iopy4qqEspKaDYravVm33k1R91Q69FA1VBRzFIVvXbx5AgXT44A8MWP81yfu0utIR2aVK3vfCnGrcUNxp8a7gKYKiLCvY2SUvo/aNtnM3e49ucK9S3p0aDdaT0UAVsKi2tVi6IWwNL9JvdqTdihaz79/l+u/rHMxmaJVMLkS2OoKKLWacdeE3IsSxctc2D5Qcl6vUlVVgNt+fkPPcFFmTw1xruvT7SCd7nuVhDQvECzJH90h0azRKoKFRkAmP5lKTWAGRdefoZL554FQNUxB92WvYeA5UN4PtSqwB2phKqsqMpBgAunRhFR3j49zuU3jnX8k6fHEQKXzh1jbmGDuYU6s4t1rt6socUeLLZHhYO2AHSHmzt19ihTZ48O8Hzl/AmunD/BjTvrvPfNX3hWsNpwJCvwYm+ngug4UilSCSq6k8YPtxDwfA+WRawIWFbgscDiULcCEaWqBFOlrLazurupOSHLqGnEKJAY8TwBEHumqUirAjNm52vEPPRV4p01XXMPAQhUBjcWm9QZwijwokgAeYHlHYA06KR1cT6ZvoV56pDUJQEjw0KeaMgj1hPEY4vz2A4eW0/e1qA7KtQdsxTYAG0H3iG4xyK1Y+xm7XmEPOJZDiENzLi2WZHngeOjj2Pe+sMg4GRYyLAsx7ME4FnsyTD9pr0PEc8zPGRAwKXBkYOPEd96cZRvf11g9MDe7e3R4Z4Q+vyEnn3P4t0XzK/W+ODN5/kPfRLewAJVEQ0AAAAASUVORK5CYII%3D

Modifié par PatchWorks, 21 décembre 2009 - 08:45 .

[xavan512]

LOL man your killing me...

First of all, it is easy to master stealth with maximized dps talents.

You first say "Frankly, I doubt whether you are serious about adding constructively to the dialogue with your ridiculous straw man arguments for rogues."

Then you say "You should have written 'Roll a MAGE if you want to play a very high but hands on DPS'"

I almost felt bad, but you killed your credibility and now your just trolling...

The thread is do dual wield warriors serve a purpose in the min/max world? The answer is no.
Obviously you are emotionally attached to this issue and can't debate constructively.

FACT: For aoe dps, mages beat dual wield warriors and rogues.
FACT: There are better tank setups then dual wielding.
FACT: Rogues output more single target dps than warriors.

So your contribution to a min/max debate is well dual wield warriors can wear 100% spell resist while DPSing...WHY ISNT YOUR TANK WEARING THAT?!?!  Or is your dual wield warrior, also your tank?  MMM doing two jobs mediocrly mmm...not a good way to min/max bud.  

I never said dual wield warriors are bad. They just don't fit in a min/max'd playstyle. There is no need to get all emotional and say "OH YEAH WHY DO WE EVEN NEED ANYTHING BUT MAGES?!?!111"

Modifié par xavan512, 21 décembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[Fleapants]

Zecele wrote...

Five words for why a DW warrior will always be better than a DW Rogue in pure combat:



{One Hundred Percent Spell Immunity}

Where do they get 100% spell immunity from?

40% from Knight-Commanders Armor, 30% from The Spellward, 26% from a weapon with 3 runeslots (10%+8%+8%), 4% from Keys to the City.
Swap out the 10% rune if you're a dwarf.

[themaxzero]

Fleapants wrote...

Zecele wrote...

Five words for why a DW warrior will always be better than a DW Rogue in pure combat:



{One Hundred Percent Spell Immunity}

Where do they get 100% spell immunity from?

40% from Knight-Commanders Armor, 30% from The Spellward, 26% from a weapon with 3 runeslots (10%+8%+8%), 4% from Keys to the City.
Swap out the 10% rune if you're a dwarf.

Dwarfs make the best Warriors stat wise as well.

[PatchWorks]

xavan512 wrote...

LOL man your killing me...

First of all, it is easy to master stealth with maximized dps talents.

You first say "Frankly, I doubt whether you are serious about adding constructively to the dialogue with your ridiculous straw man arguments for rogues."

Then you say "You should have written 'Roll a MAGE if you want to play a very high but hands on DPS'"

I almost felt bad, but you killed your credibility and now your just trolling...

The thread is do dual wield warriors serve a purpose in the min/max world? The answer is no.
Obviously you are emotionally attached to this issue and can't debate constructively.

FACT: For aoe dps, mages beat dual wield warriors and rogues.
FACT: There are better tank setups then dual wielding.
FACT: Rogues output more single target dps than warriors.

I never said dual wield warriors are bad. They are just don't fit in a min/max'd playstyle. There is no need to get all emotional and say "OH YEAH WHY DO WE EVEN NEED ANYTHING BUT MAGES?!?!111"

Read the Thread title "Is there any point in making a dw warrior over rogue?"
The question implies warrior centric discussion as the topic creator is deliberating making a warrior as opposed to his default choice of rogue.

Learn to read seriously.

My argument is that a rogue in a group is unessary whereas ANY warrior (DW or otherwise) always has an important place in a group.  My argument addresses the topic, something that your facetiousness doesn't even attempt.  Being a necessary part of a group condradicts your idiotic argument that warriors have no "purpose in the min/max world", and is an excellent reason for "making a dw warrior over a rogue".  Are there better pure tank builds than DW warrior? Sure.  But the the benefits of offensive capability of a DW warrior offsets the drawback of a shield warriors 5 more armor from Shield Wall.


As for accusing me of saying "OH YEAH WHY DO WE EVEN NEED ANYTHING BUT MAGES?!?!111", let me reiterate:

LEARN TO READ

An arcane warrior will also have better pure tanking capabilities than a warrior, however it will never have the capacity to control aggro the way a warrior can for the mere fact that a warrrior (DW or otherwise) has taunt and a mage doesn't.  Rogues have no way to control aggro (besides dumping theat from themselves through stealth) either.  Thus, 4 mage parties would be less efficient than 3 mage 1 warrior parties would be.

As for getting emotional, you're the one who seems to be cranky over someone arguing the merits of warriors.  In fact your first post on this topic was a criticism of warriors, "theorycrafting" over why someone "shouldn't" make a DW warrior over a rogue, as opposed to what was asked in the thread title, which was looking for reasons to make a DW warrior over a rogue. 

Seriously, LEARN TO READ, and maybe take some Dicyclomine, you sound like you need it.data:image/png;base64,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%3D

Modifié par PatchWorks, 21 décembre 2009 - 09:28 .

[xavan512]

Your arguments in this thread have been "na uh your wrong," "you can't read" (thread is about dual wielding...not various warrior specs. FYI), "straw man argument," and "no u."  Thus, why I draw the conclusion that you are emotional...to which you also refute with "no u," and "dicyclomine" in a failed attempt to sound smart.

As for reading comprehension, I address the topic of "dw" warriors (dw being an abbreviation for dual wield).  I did not ONCE say 'warriors' didn't have a place in the min/max world (reading comprehension what?), but I did comment about dual wielding ones.

As for "In fact your first post on this topic was a criticism of warriors,
"theorycrafting" over why someone "shouldn't" make a DW warrior over a
rogue, as opposed to what was asked in the thread title"  I addressed the main topic and gave my opinion on the matter.  Whether you like it or not is your opinion, but instead you get ruffled and start slinging insults. (More emo proof)

I have refuted various points made upon this board among other things. I am done having this petty argument with an ignorant person like you. 

You are a typical board troll whether you like it or not. You have no arguments except broad statements and personal attacks, and you try to mask your childish behavior with rhetoric that you inject into your posts.

Modifié par xavan512, 21 décembre 2009 - 11:11 .

[PatchWorks]

xavan512 wrote...

thread is about dual wielding...not various warrior specs. FYI

Wow. Just wow.



Lemme point you to the thread title again.



"Is there any point in making a dw warrior over rogue?"



The reason a person would choose to make a dual wield warrior over a dual wield rogue are because of "various warrior specs". "various warrior specs" are what differentiate a warrior dual wielder from the rogue dual wielder, certainly not dual wielding talents themselves.



I'm not sure how you could be more ignorant.

xavan512 wrote...

As for reading comprehension, I address the topic of "dw" warriors (dw being an abbreviation for dual wield). I did not ONCE say 'warriors' didn't have a place in the min/max world (reading comprehension what?), but I did comment about dual wielding ones.

The topic is about making DW warriors as opposed to just settling for DW rogues. As dual wielders are the subtype representing warriors in this thread, you in fact did explicitly state "warriors didn't have a place in the min/max world", an argument which is thoroughly misinformed. You just don't have the integrity to own your mistake.

xavan512 wrote...

I have refuted various points made upon this board among other things. I am done having this petty argument with an ignorant person like you.



You are a typical board troll whether you like it or not. You have no arguments except broad statements and personal attacks, and you try to mask your childish behavior with rhetoric that you inject into your posts.

Broad statements and personal attacks? You're the person saying crap like "'warriors' didn't have a place in the min/max world" and calling me a troll.



Try looking in a mirror sometime. You might not like what you see.

[Khumak]

The true strength of a rogue is stealth. If you use stealth to scout ahead, disarm all enemy traps, and lay your own in their place you can turn a hard fight into an easy fight and no other class can duplicate that. If you're talking purely melee DPS, the rogue probably loses out due to the requirement for positioning to get flanking bonuses and backstabs. If you just let the AI manage a rogue, you generally will NOT get backstabs except on stunned enemies.



If you micromanage the rogue, then you're not micro managing your mage which turns most mages into either gimped heal bots or ineffective damage dealers or crowd controllers. Even if you only give your mage completely party friendly spells, the AI generally refuses to use them effectively.