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[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I would send them to a mental hospital.
But we are not talking about a mental illness only. We are talking about a potential abomination and Hawke is just forced to stand there and do nothing about it.

And you can do nothign about it in Act 3, except if you seriously want to tell me that the idiotic scene with Cullen is an attempt.

You can tell him to leave Kirkwall after Dissent in Act 2 and he will leave your party until the end of the game.

And yes, that is an attempt. Whether or not anything comes of it doesn't really make it not an attempt, since that's sort of what an attempt is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

You can tell him to leave Kirkwall after Dissent in Act 2 and he will leave your party until the end of the game.

And why can't you do that in Act 3 (when he is clearly mroe dangerous)? Why can't you try to capture him yourself?

And yes, that is an attempt. Whether or not anything comes of it doesn't really make it not an attempt, since that's sort of what an attempt is.

Watch it again:


That is the attempt I am supposed to be content with? A "Meh sure" by Cullen, followed by a "Sorry to bother you" by Hawke?

There is plausible attempt, and then there is an attempt that is only feasible if the ones involved are either idiots or incredibly lazy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2011 - 08:13 .

[erynnar]

highcastle wrote...

erynnar wrote...

highcastle wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Oh come on, how can you say there isn't a focus on combat? I guarantee you, in every single place you go (except daytime Kirkwall, sometimes not even that) you will get jumped by some form of bandits, raiders, gangs, thugs and so on. There would be nothing wrong with it if the combat made sense (say, in Origins there was practically always a motive behind a battle) but when it's just combat for the sake of combat, then yes DA2 does focus on it.

In Origins there were moments you could ignore combat; there was a random encounter with bandits that you could either ambush or walk around, you could avoid combat when you come face to face with Caladrius, you could intimidate Imrek to step down from fighting you outside Orzammar and so forth. On the other hand, in DA2 you just (in the times you do actually get to talk to your enemy) you get stopped by thugs (Shepherding Wolves) or Coterie (Brekker) and no matter what you say, it breaks out in to a fight. Becoming the champion and then thugs still trying to jump you at night was completely stupid as well; if we could have access to our number of kills like in Origins (character record) it would probably be somewhere in the thousands by Act 3.

And every single time I walked from one place to another in DAO, I got jumped. Only one could be ignored. A few in DA2 could be, too. But random encounters are a trope of RPGs. Lamenting them means lamenting a given staple of the genre. There's also this wonderful thing called gameplay and story segregation. Helps you keep things in perspective, I find.

True, you did get jumped in DAO, but it wasn't by six or seven waves of teleporting ninjas. They were a group of enemies, whose numbers were already set. And they didn't explode all over my screen in gore so I couldn't see.

And some of those ambushes were side quest not just walking across Denerim and getting ganked while walking to the Gnawed Noble for a pint.

Have you tried the newest patch? It cuts down the explosiveness by quite a bit (the amount was supposedly due to a glitch in how the game triggered explosions). Plus, I seem to remember getting ambushed by a knight asking for satisfaction in the streets of Denerim, by smugglers in Amaranthine, by various Harrowmont or Bhelen supporters in Orzammar, etc.

Also, how do exploding enemies or waves of combat have anything to do with liking Hawke as a character? 

Oh, nope haven't tried the new patch yet. Good to know, thanks.

And the knight in Denerim is one guy, and he can be talked down, you don't have to fight him. And still my example stands. You didnt' get jumped ever thirty seconds even in Orzammar and it wasn't six waves.

And no it doesn't have to do with liking Hawke or not, so why did you bring it up first? I was just addressing your comment about getting jumped in DAO. Which I agree, you do, but like many things in DAO, it was done much much better. That includes the Warden origins. Hawke I didn't like, she was handled poorly, she became meh.

[highcastle]

@Knight of Phoenix (because I refuse to quote something that massively long already):

We're talking in circles. You don't think Hawke is proactive. I do. Clearly we're playing different dialogue options or something. In regards to Hawke's attempts to become viscount, I outlined them already. He went to Bran (appealing to the nobility, as you put it), he went to Sebastian (appealing to religious authority), and he went to Alistair (appealing to a foreign nation). Undermining Meredith was how I defined working with Orsino and siding against the Knight Commander in Act 3.

Regarding the idiocy issue, Meredith was already being affected by the idol. She wasn't rational. Likewise, Anders was affected by Justice. He too was not rational. They're not idiots, but their behavior did go outside the conventional norms and values. For reasons which were explained. Despite both Anders and Meredith being extremists, they raise good points. Is everyone entitled to freedom, as Anders believes? Or if those people are capable or and/or have already committed terrible acts, then should they not be contained? It's liberty versus security, and it's a debate that rages in the real world quite often.

And a point was made in the Anders thread that Leliana hints in Sebastian's Act 3 quest that Resolutionists are being kept alive and free so the templars can spy on them and glean insight on their plans. This could very well be why Cullen is reluctant to make a move on Anders. Another reason, particularly if romanced, is that the templars don't want to challenge a popular hero at this point (and Hawke is popular; the common folk cheer his name when he enters a pub, the nobility you pass on the street all praise you, etc.).

Look, I'm not going to respond to everything because I get the feeling you're ignoring/missing the point of most of what I say anyway. And most of my other responses would just be repetition of the same thing. You're free to have your own opinion, but if the crux of this issue is whether or not Hawke is proactive and has emotions and whether the game recognizes that, then the answer is yes. Yes he does. He emotes. Characters recognize it. Just because the NPCs don't react the way you want them to, just because the story line doesn't branch in a million different directions depending on whether you drink orange juice or milk for breakfast, doesn't mean Hawke is useless. He still accomplishes something. He thwarts a Qunari invasion. He kick-starts a war, albeit inadvertently.

[ipgd]

xkg wrote...

So in case of war it is ok to runaway from
your home country into some safe teritory ? Imo joining the army and
fighting for freedom should be a way to go.

Hawke is The Champion of Kirkwall, The Coward of Ferlden

Then what are you doing here on the internet, pal? Enlist and get yourself overseas!

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And why can't you do that in Act 3 (when he is clearly mroe dangerous)? Why can't you try to capture him yourself?

Because there is a point at which your choices would end up creating radically different worlds that cannot be continued in a game without the reasources to create two entirely different games in one. If you could actually capture/kill/sic the templars on Anders he would either have to not be plot relevant (as the other characters you can kill or be rid of after the end of their plot relevance aren't), or those choices would have to be bottlenecked so he would escape or do something to ensure he is always present when necessary, in which case you would just complain about those choices not mattering.

That is the attempt I am supposed to content with? A "Meh sure" by Cullen, followed by a "Sorry to bother you" by Hawke?

There is plausible attempt, and an attempt that is only feasible if the ones involved are either idiots or incredibly lazy.

That is an attempt. If you want to believe it's a ****ty attempt, all the more power to you.

[highcastle]

xkg wrote...

So in case of war it is ok to runaway from your home country into some safe teritory ? Imo joining the army and fighting for freedom should be a way to go.

Hawke is The Champion of Kirkwall, The Coward of Ferlden

In my country, I'm female and they don't permit us in active combat anyway. 

But to keep this focused on the narrative, DA2 isn't about what you would do. It's about what the character you create would do. My character felt his family was more important than a homeland that didn't want him anyway and would have gladly seen him locked up for what he was. Or to put it in the terms you want to use: would you fight for a country that oppressed you, or would you seek safer territory somewhere else, especially if you had a family depending on you to keep them safe?

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Ryzaki wrote...

DrunkDeadman wrote...
Most mages, especially those of nobles, are found out young. Bethany can take care of herself and so does Hawke. Their father taught them how to control and hide their magic from others. Add a wall of protection due to the noble status, and they are fairly safe.

Yet she can't take care of herself enough that she isn't found out soon after Hawke leaves for the deep roads.

I personally doubt that the Amells a line well known for its magical offspring wouldn't get extreme scruntiny from the templars when Leandra comes back with her children from the apostate she ran off with.

When comparing that risk to simply going somewhere there are few templars. It doesn't make much sense to me.

She gets found out precisely because she has nothing to hide behind. She's just another poor refugee with no real ties to the rich and powerful. She can't go crawling trough **** in Darktown to avoid templars like Anders does, nor can she blend in with the elves of the Alienage like Merrill.

Sure, the templars would be suspicious when the Hawkes regain their noble status, but it does not give them the right to simply barge in and yell "APOSTATES!!" as loudly as possible, all the while pointing fingers at a random member of the Amell family, mage or not. Most likely, it would end up just as the DuPuis fiasco.

As for the last point, it's not just the travel itself. As I said before, no money and no contacts would make it hard at best, settling somewhere other than Kirkwall. They would most likely end up sleeping on the streets if not dead. Gamlen at least, provided a roof over their heads.

Modifié par DrunkDeadman, 05 juin 2011 - 08:25 .

[highcastle]

erynnar wrote...

Oh, nope haven't tried the new patch yet. Good to know, thanks.

And the knight in Denerim is one guy, and he can be talked down, you don't have to fight him. And still my example stands. You didnt' get jumped ever thirty seconds even in Orzammar and it wasn't six waves.

And no it doesn't have to do with liking Hawke or not, so why did you bring it up first? I was just addressing your comment about getting jumped in DAO. Which I agree, you do, but like many things in DAO, it was done much much better. That includes the Warden origins. Hawke I didn't like, she was handled poorly, she became meh.

I didn't bring it up. I was responding to someone else.

So the crux of your argument is that you don't like waves of combat? Ok. Still don't see how that's relevant here, but whatever. It's a valid opinion. I personally don't care about combat much regardless. I play for the story and characters, so I have little opinion on this. I found it neither realistic nor unrealistic, but looked at is as game mechanic.

How was Hawke handled poorly? The game decides nothing for you. You have all the agency in controlling Hawke. So in a sense, aren't you saying you handled Hawke poorly? In which case...sorry, try again?

[Abispa]

I actually liked Hawke in both sexes and in all three attitudes, although I found it necessary to tone down the smart ass attitude in certain situations since it made him/her look like a DUMB ass. My only real grip is with the Mage Hawke storyline because that class has a story that MAKES NO SENSE, although a female mage rival romance with Fenris is pretty well done.

EDIT: Because I disgraced my English instructor.

Modifié par Abispa, 05 juin 2011 - 08:31 .

[xkg]

ipgd wrote...

xkg wrote...

So in case of war it is ok to runaway from
your home country into some safe teritory ? Imo joining the army and
fighting for freedom should be a way to go.

Hawke is The Champion of Kirkwall, The Coward of Ferlden

Then what are you doing here on the internet, pal? Enlist and get yourself overseas!

No, thank you. Can't see any fightings outside of my window so i'am staying here where i'am now.
Besides, there is no war in my country right now.

highcastle wrote...

In my country, I'm female and they don't permit us in active combat anyway. 

But to keep this focused on the narrative, DA2 isn't about what you would do. It's about what the character you create would do. My character felt his family was more important than a homeland that didn't want him anyway and would have gladly seen him locked up for what he was. Or to put it in the terms you want to use: would you fight for a country that oppressed you, or would you seek safer territory somewhere else, especially if you had a family depending on you to keep them safe?

Ok, but if your point is You/Your sister being a Mage - then i don't think that Kirkwall is the safer place for mage to go.

Modifié par xkg, 05 juin 2011 - 08:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
He went to Bran (appealing to the nobility, as you put it), he went to Sebastian (appealing to religious authority), and he went to Alistair (appealing to a foreign nation). Undermining Meredith was how I defined working with Orsino and siding against the Knight Commander in Act 3.

Having one convo with Bran is not establishing a connection. Sebastian is no religious authority, he is a low ranking brother. And one convo with Alistair is not appealing to a foreign nation, or is one only in words that is inconsequential to the plot. None of your examples have any consequences and are not even remotely useful to Hawke. So whether he did all this or not is compeltely irrelevenet.

Like you say about the Warden not being able to express himself in the game making his emotions be irrlevent. Small convos with no relevence and consequence in-game are equally irrelevent to me.

Regarding the idiocy issue, Meredith was already being affected by the idol. She wasn't rational. Likewise, Anders was affected by Justice. He too was not rational. They're not idiots, but their behavior did go outside the conventional norms and values.

And the Chantry just stood by and let Meredith be an idiot, despite rumors abounding in regards to her insanity (and her incompetence is obvious).

I didn't mention Anders, I know why he's acting like a fool.

And a point was made in the Anders thread that Leliana hints in Sebastian's Act 3 quest that Resolutionists are being kept alive and free so the templars can spy on them and glean insight on their plans. This could very well be why Cullen is reluctant to make a move on Anders.

Despite being told that he is plotting something against the Chantry (aka, if they think Anders is connected to Resolutionists, then their plan has been exposed)? Wouldn't, oh I don't know, interrogation be useful at this point?

Another reason, particularly if romanced, is that the templars don't want to challenge a popular hero at this point (and Hawke is popular; the common folk cheer his name when he enters a pub, the nobility you pass on the street all praise you, etc.).

Doens't make any sense if Hawke doesn't care about Anders or wants him to be caught.

He emotes. Characters recognize it.

In ways that I find very marginal and superficial that I would not consider it that much better than Origins and certainly not enough for me to tolerate the story.

He kick-starts a war, albeit inadvertently.

That's Anders and Meredith. I can attribute more responsability to Bartrand than Hawke.
The whole point of Varric's narration, is that Hawke is not the major player in this.

The only thing I felt Hawke did do was stop the Qunari, but he does so in ways so typical of the traditional superheroe kill everything in their path way, that it only felt "meh".  Act 2 could have been much more and could have given the imrpession of a Rise to power much more adequatetly.

[Ryzaki]

DrunkDeadman wrote...
She gets found out precisely because she has nothing to hide behind. She's just another poor refugee with no real ties to the rich and powerful. She can't go crawling trough **** in Darktown to avoid templars like Anders does, nor can she blend in with the elves of the Alienage like Merrill.

Sure, the templars would be suspicious when the Hawkes regain their noble status, but it does not give them the right to simply barge in and yell "APOSTATES!!" as loudly as possible, all the while pointing fingers at a random member of the Amell family, mage or not. Most likely, it would end up just as the DuPuis fiasco.

As for the last point, it's not just the travel itself. As I said before, no money and no contacts would make it hard at best, settling somewhere other than Kirkwall. They would most likely end up sleeping on the streets if not dead. Gamlen at least, provided a roof over their heads.

 

And she *shouldn't* be getting found out regardless. She spent 18 years poor. Being poor =/= being stupid. Avoiding magical displays would've kept her off the templars radar. Unlike Anders she's not going around healing poeple. Nor is she going to the templars to beg for money. 

Nope they wouldn't. 

I really have to question the fact that she has absolutely no money. They wasted all that time staying behind and didn't bother taking cash? 

[ItsTheTruth]

Seriously jump at 1:00 in this video:



Isn't the sight of Hawke smiling at his awesome silk pajama the dumbest thing you have ever seen? And why spend so much time showing his new house anyway? It is as if they had realized Hawke is less interesting than a chair.

Modifié par ItsTheTruth, 05 juin 2011 - 08:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
 those choices would have to be bottlenecked so he would escape or do something to ensure he is always present when necessary, in which case you would just complain about those choices not mattering.

Yes, that's what should have been done and no I wouldn't complain if what Anders has to do is necessary for the plot. I would however expect Anders being visibly more angry and distateful towards Hawke when he returns. And better yet if it makes "redeeming" him impossible.

That is an attempt. If you want to believe it's a ****ty attempt, all the more power to you.

Made by lazy idiots. Sure.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2011 - 08:33 .

[Wulfram]

Abispa wrote...

I actually liked Hawke in both sexes and in all three attitudes, although I found it necessary to tone down the smart ass attitude in certain situations since it made him/her look like a DUMB ass in certain situation

What I found annoying was being forced to be smart ass on some occasions because the game decided that was my dominant tone.

Particularly annoying is the long speech at the end with no player input.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
 those choices would have to be bottlenecked so he would escape or do something to ensure he is always present when necessary, in which case you would just complain about those choices not mattering.

Yes, that's what should have been done and no I wouldn't complain if what Anders has to do is necessary for the plot. I would however expect Anders being visibly more angry and distateful towards Hawke when he returns. And better yet if it makes "redeeming" him impossible.

Redeeming Anders is already impossible (hello Ryzaki how are you today )

[Ryzaki]

Wulfram wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I actually liked Hawke in both sexes and in all three attitudes, although I found it necessary to tone down the smart ass attitude in certain situations since it made him/her look like a DUMB ass in certain situation

What I found annoying was being forced to be smart ass on some occasions because the game decided that was my dominant tone.

Particularly annoying is the long speech at the end with no player input.

 

I hate that speech. 

Toegoff's Let's Play said it best. Putting epic music over a s**** speech doesn't make it an epic speech.  

Oh well see how impossible it is igpd. We'll see. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 juin 2011 - 08:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
Redeeming Anders is already impossible (hello Ryzaki how are you today )

Didn't the patch make Anders siding with Templars possible?
Granted, "redemption" is a bad word.

Regardless, that choice could be blocked if Hawke turned Anders to Templars for instance.

[tmp7704]

ipgd wrote...

Because I was interested in the plot, the characters, the world, etc. from an outside, detached, "I am enjoying a work of fiction" perspective. As far as actually being able to insert myself into the world and/or make my choices through an agent I felt had a contextually, in-universe emotional connection to the events, I couldn't in most cases. A matter of immersion, basically.

I see, makes sense. Just curious now, but if you approach the game from the "work of fiction" angle, wouldn't it work better to --instead of using your own personality to make choices-- make decisions (and roll with consequences) that'd result in the most interesting fiction?

That's mainly caused by your later remark how you'd reload/metagame the Connor/Isolde situation for the 'happily ever after' ending, which sort of leave me with a puzzled "but why" when, as you say yourself, it makes for a better dilemma when that option is removed. So if the earlier decision actually arranges such more interesting situation... i'm not sure if i see logic in "repairing" that with a reload.

[neppakyo]

Interesting conversation that I missed since being at work..

KoP has the stronger arguments, and I agree hawke was nothing but a useless fixture. A chair is more useful than him/her. The mess of ideas and the way it was executed was poor, if given more time to flesh it out properly, it would of been a better story, and hawke would of had a better personality than a brick.

That and get rid of Varric doing the Framed Narrative. The PC him/herself would of done a much better job, and make for a better story and plot. Don't get me wrong, Varric is a good character, the only one besides Aveline I liked, it was just fail at the narrative.

AP and TW2 (prologue) was framed narrative executed excellently. DA2 had cool ideas, poor execution.

[highcastle]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Like you say about the Warden not being able to express himself in the game making his emotions be irrlevent. Small convos with no relevence and consequence in-game are equally irrelevent to me.

This is the only thing I'm going to respond to, since I've argued the last points pretty much repeatedly and I don't think your fully hearing me.

These small convos that you dismiss out of hand, these are what I like about DA2. They give Hawke the chance to emote and express himself. That's what I want in an RPG, more than big world-changing choices. I want the opportunity to play a fully fleshed character with emotions and desires. DA2 realized this for me. DAO kept me at arm's length from my character.

I think we're looking for two different things in the games we play. That's fine. But for me, DA2 trumps DAO and Hawke trumps the Warden. No contest.

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
These small convos that you dismiss out of hand, these are what I like about DA2. They give Hawke the chance to emote and express himself.

Not relevent to Hawke supposdely being proactive and rising to power, which is what  I thought we were talking about. At best, he has one talk with a character and that's it. He doesn't follow up on that, doesn't try to establish other connections..etc etc.

EDIT: as for emoting. Lik I said, I didn't feel NPCs and companions reacted that well or differently for me to think that it's anything other than superficial.

I think we're looking for two different things in the games we play. That's fine. But for me, DA2 trumps DAO and Hawke trumps the Warden. No contest.

I am actually looking for what the game claimed it was. Now I realize I was being stupid.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2011 - 08:43 .

[Abispa]

Wulfram wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I actually liked Hawke in both sexes and in all three attitudes, although I found it necessary to tone down the smart ass attitude in certain situations since it made him/her look like a DUMB ass in certain situation

What I found annoying was being forced to be smart ass on some occasions because the game decided that was my dominant tone.

Particularly annoying is the long speech at the end with no player input.

I agree with that stance somewhat, and it is an area that deserves to be improved upon. But looking at it "realistically," a person who is constantly a smart ass often cannot be taken seriously when trying to be threatening or kind since everyone around him/her is defensively waiting for the punchline. I like the fact that my smart ass Hawke couldn't successfully slash the slaver mage's throat nor was able to threaten a dock worker successfully in broad daylight; and my good-two shoes Hawke couldn't either. I also like the way my mean Hawke fails spectacularly at being a peacemaker unless s/he relies on party members.

Perhaps DA2 could have been better served with a "paragon/renegade" meter that was used in ME1. You could successfully take any action you had earned enough points for, but would be limited in choices if your Shepard was wishy-washy.

[Glorfindel709]

Hawke doesn't emote. Hawke doesn't say or do anything. He has a hook up his arse that is dragging him from situation to situation with no input or choice he makes being capable of altering that final destination of the stories path. The mages will always go mad and resort to blood magic. The templars will always be sadists. Your mother will die a painful death regardless of whether you track the blood or do the ritual. Grace goes mad and tries to kill you no matter what. Even if you try to stop Anders nothing happens.

Hawke is on a path with no input from the player and the only real option you have is to either be diplomatic, snarky, or an **** about it.

Hawke is not a character. Hawke is a cheap caricature that can truly do nothing to effect the world around him because regardless of the few choices you're given it's all a matter of inevitability.

[neppakyo]

Abispa wrote...

Perhaps DA2 could have been better served with a "paragon/renegade" meter that was used in ME1. You could successfully take any action you had earned enough points for, but would be limited in choices if your Shepard was wishy-washy.

How about actual skills instead, like intimidation, persuasion?

Just sayin'