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[Persephone]

Mecher3k wrote...

Persephone swings and hits herself again.

That is such a CONVINCING in depth argument, I am left quite......speechless.

Consider a career in politics, you'll be a smash hit!

[KnightofPhoenix]

adneate wrote...
 However as usual we have to pick either group moron or group idiot because the plot is too narrow to take into account the main character having an ounce of ambition and the ability to think outside of the moment.

I generally dislike the bipolarity of Bioware games, which seem to think that the world always ends up limited to two options.

But like you say, when both factions are equally idiotic / insane, and when I end up having to kill hordes of demons regardless, then I really see no point to all of this. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2011 - 03:36 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

As was the "No matter what you do, the world will change and you are tossed into the storm........." feeling I got from the story.

I got the feeling that "no matter what you think Hawke can do, he'll do little and be tossed into a storm of insanity, banality and idiocy which strips the plot of maturity and complexity so much, that it's actually comical". 

The storm has no point if you strip it of humanity by making everyone either an idiot or a lunatic (add in legions of demons in the mix). It's just a different form of blight imo, except it's less mysterious and interesting.  Had Origins not introduced the issue of mages and templars decently, I would not have cared one bit based on DA2.

That seems to be the constant recourse of people. To claim or imply that those who dislike DA2's story necessarily do so because of the concept. My gripe was with the execution and quality.

And you make excellent, valid points as usual, KOP. It's just not the feeling I got.

Do I agree that it could have been done better? Yes. Had Bioware been given more time, the game would have been more polished and I'd be the first to welcome that happily. But the same is true in my opinion for DAO.

Until DAII, the plight of the mages never struck me as having much urgency, esp. since the whole Templars vs. Mages "choice" in DAO was solved for me by presenting me with survivors that include children. The game basically told me the "decent" option long before I got to the bottom of Uldred's plans. Now if there had been an option to side WITH Uldred.......that would have stirred things up, esp. for my Amell girl.

As for many demons and insanity in Kirkwall, the thin veil and past atrocities pretty much explain it. Even though it could have been shown in more detail, not just in codexes or a conversation here & there. Perfect angle to bring in the two antagonists sooner than DAII did, to explore these things from both sides.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The storm has no point if you strip it of humanity by making everyone either an idiot or a lunatic (add in legions of demons in the mix). It's just a different form of blight imo, except it's less mysterious and interesting.  Had Origins not introduced the issue of mages and templars decently, I would not have cared one bit based on DA2.

That seems to be the constant recourse of people. To claim or imply that those who dislike DA2's story necessarily do so because of the concept. My gripe was with the execution and quality.

Yes, it all goes together.  A protagonist you're ambivalent about coupled with a story that's comically exaggerated= disengagement.

[Aaleel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

As was the "No matter what you do, the world will change and you are tossed into the storm........." feeling I got from the story.

I got the feeling that "no matter what you think Hawke can do, he'll do little and be tossed into a storm of insanity, banality and idiocy which strips the plot of maturity and complexity so much, that it's actually comical". 

The storm has no point if you strip it of humanity by making everyone either an idiot or a lunatic (add in legions of demons in the mix). It's just a different form of blight imo, except it's less mysterious and interesting.  Had Origins not introduced the issue of mages and templars decently, I would not have cared one bit based on DA2.

That seems to be the constant recourse of people. To claim or imply that those who dislike DA2's story necessarily do so because of the concept. My gripe was with the execution and quality.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  At least we got a balanced look at the mage/templar conflict in Origins.  But in DA2, every mage was crazy.  And even though there were some codex entries that aid the tevinter thinned the veil and mages failed the harrowing at a greater rate.  Did every mage have to be crazy.  Aside from Bethany is was pretty much crazy mages.  Andres was unreasonable, and Merrill was just too dumb to even see what everyone was telling her.  Even Flemith warned her for goodness sake.

Then the ending.  I still even above all that because of Bethany helped the mages, so to have a scene of.

"Hey Orsino good job, they'll think twice before coming back in here.  Wait, what are you doing with that knife."

That's where the last stitch came out and I just didn't care anymore.

Modifié par Aaleel, 06 juin 2011 - 03:45 .

[adneate]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I generally dislike the bipolarity of Bioware games, which seem to think that the world always ends up limited to two options.

But like you say, when both factions are equally idiotic / insane, and when I end up having to kill hordes of demons regardless, then I really see no point to all of this. 

DA2 was really bad for this you had the Templars who were about as unlikable and opressive of a group as you could get and the Mages who all turned out to be totally untrustworthy and/or completely insane. I would have just given Aveline the order to turn the City Guard on the Templars and then lay seige to The Gallows until the Mages either surrendered or died.

It's was such a load of BS that the Mage ending was almost identical to the Templar ending, way to invalidate the one choice we do get to make with the laziest design possible.

[Morroian]

adneate wrote...

I don't like Hawke as a character, I can't like someone who has the power to do something and does nothing for no other reason than "The Plot Demands It".
[...]
Anyone with ambition could use the situation to their personal advantage by promoting themselves as the 3rd option and the restorer of order to Kirkwall by turning on the Templars and Mages alike, both of whom have brought war and destruction to the common people through their petty conflict. However as usual we have to pick either group moron or group idiot because the plot is too narrow to take into account the main character having an ounce of ambition and the ability to think outside of the moment.

Its already been pointed out in this thread that Hawke can explore the possibility of becoming Viscount. Hawke doesn't have to sit there and do nothing. Now if you want to complain about the set up of the game forcing Hawke into the situation where he can't take that any further and is powerless well thats a different issue. Plus its not like Hawke sits on his/her hands and does nothing about the Qunari.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Until DAII, the plight of the mages never struck me as having much urgency,

I think that's part of the problem. To think that the issue needs to be "electrified" and shoved up our faces for us to care, in lieu of it being deep and subtle.

Is there a happy medium? Maybe. But DA2 missed it completely imo. It made almost every mage a lunatic, who turn into abominations in a matter of seconds, severily banalizing the process which was supposed to be about temptation and resisting it (not to mention abominations being summoned creatures in the wave load). In Origins, it was only with Uldred forcing it that mages turned into abominations quickly (that said, I dislike how abominations are in Origins).

I can understand trying to add fuel to the fire in regards to mages and Templars. But it could have been more subtle than this. This is a very complex issue and the way I felt it was banalized in DA2, specifically in Act 3, is just painful.

esp. since the whole Templars vs. Mages "choice" in DAO was solved for me by presenting me with survivors that include children. The game basically told me the "decent" option long before I got to the bottom of Uldred's plans. Now if there had been an option to side WITH Uldred.......that would have stirred things up, esp. for my Amell girl.

Siding with Uldred goes beyond mages vs Templars, and goes into demon territory however.
Which btw, I think should be downplayed (especially seeing what happens in DA2). I prefer demons to be agents of temptation. Not "lulz all your base are belong to us!!" kind of evil force that DA2 was supposed to avoid. 

As for many demons and insanity in Kirkwall, the thin veil and past atrocities pretty much explain it. Even though it could have been shown in more detail, not just in codexes or a conversation here & there. Perfect angle to bring in the two antagonists sooner than DAII did, to explore these things from both sides.

I think a story is very weak if it has to resort to an optional obscure codex to explain wtf is going on.

And I do not see the point of this direction, if it was deliberate. Why do they think it's a good idea?
I am more tempted to believe that the writers felt bad about being pressured to constantly bring in more and more violence, and seeing how they were pressured to rush it, brought in the codices as an attempt to explain the debacle.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2011 - 03:52 .

[Addai]

Morroian wrote...
Its already been pointed out in this thread that Hawke can explore the possibility of becoming Viscount. Hawke doesn't have to sit there and do nothing. Now if you want to complain about the set up of the game forcing Hawke into the situation where he can't take that any further and is powerless well thats a different issue. Plus its not like Hawke sits on his/her hands and does nothing about the Qunari.

You're viscount for all of five minutes and accomplish absolutely nothing.  Viscount Hawke is even more feckless than the usual.

[Persephone]

Aaleel wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

As was the "No matter what you do, the world will change and you are tossed into the storm........." feeling I got from the story.

I got the feeling that "no matter what you think Hawke can do, he'll do little and be tossed into a storm of insanity, banality and idiocy which strips the plot of maturity and complexity so much, that it's actually comical". 

The storm has no point if you strip it of humanity by making everyone either an idiot or a lunatic (add in legions of demons in the mix). It's just a different form of blight imo, except it's less mysterious and interesting.  Had Origins not introduced the issue of mages and templars decently, I would not have cared one bit based on DA2.

That seems to be the constant recourse of people. To claim or imply that those who dislike DA2's story necessarily do so because of the concept. My gripe was with the execution and quality.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.  At least we got a balanced look at the mage/templar conflict in Origins.  But in DA2, every mage was crazy.  And even though there were some codex entries that aid the tevinter thinned the veil and mages failed the harrowing at a greater rate.  Did every mage have to be crazy.  Aside from Bethany is was pretty much crazy mages.  Andres was unreasonable, and Merrill was just too dumb to even see what everyone was telling her.  Even Flemith warned her for goodness sake.

Then the ending.  I still even above all that because of Bethany helped the mages, so to have a scene of.

"Hey Orsino good job, they'll think twice before coming back in here.  Wait, what are you doing with that knife."

That's where the last stitch came out and I just didn't care anymore.

I have already said that IMO DAO offered little insight into the mage/templar conflict. Even as a mage Warden, I saw little of it & had to use my imagination as to why my Amell would be unhappy at the circle.

Every mage in DAII was crazy? Eh, no.

I was unhappy with Orsino's choice as well, even IF it was made out of utter despair. The endings, like the bugged endings in DAO, left much to be desired indeed. (I prefer the Templar ending, esp. now after Patch 1.03)

[Morroian]

Addai67 wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Its already been pointed out in this thread that Hawke can explore the possibility of becoming Viscount. Hawke doesn't have to sit there and do nothing. Now if you want to complain about the set up of the game forcing Hawke into the situation where he can't take that any further and is powerless well thats a different issue. Plus its not like Hawke sits on his/her hands and does nothing about the Qunari.

You're viscount for all of five minutes and accomplish absolutely nothing.  Viscount Hawke is even more feckless than the usual.

Well I was talking about earlier in Act3 where you can approach various parties about becoming Viscount. Plus if Hawke does become Viscount its not like we actually see what happens.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Its already been pointed out in this thread that Hawke can explore the possibility of becoming Viscount. Hawke doesn't have to sit there and do nothing. Now if you want to complain about the set up of the game forcing Hawke into the situation where he can't take that any further and is powerless well thats a different issue. Plus its not like Hawke sits on his/her hands and does nothing about the Qunari.

You're viscount for all of five minutes and accomplish absolutely nothing.  Viscount Hawke is even more feckless than the usual.

And how is that different from being king consort/chancellor for 2 seconds in DAO?

[adneate]

Morroian wrote...
Its already been pointed out in this thread that Hawke can explore the possibility of becoming Viscount. Hawke doesn't have to sit there and do nothing. Now if you want to complain about the set up of the game forcing Hawke into the situation where he can't take that any further and is powerless well thats a different issue. Plus its not like Hawke sits on his/her hands and does nothing about the Qunari.

It's never pressed and Hawke doesn't have the ablity to press it, being Vicount is at best mentioned in passing a couple of times before you get told to choose between two groups of idiots. I'd hardly call that proactive solutions to the total secular power vacuum of Kirkwall, Hawke's status and wealth does not match up in any reasonable way with Hawke's actions. A real noble would do more than just ask a couple people about being a ruler of a city state, they might assassinate their rivals or hire a pirvate army to force people's hands.

Talking to a few people is akin to doing nothing for someone of Hawke's social and economic status.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...
Its already been pointed out in this thread that Hawke can explore the possibility of becoming Viscount.

Simply by killing mages, that's it. Barring how irrelevent it ultimately is, it's once again Hawke rmassacring everything in his path and the others inexplicably thinking it's impressive good enough material for a position of power.

[Soul Cool]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Do you like Hawke, or do you miss your Warden? If Hawke were to die, would it affect you?

They're both just vehicles for me to move through the game world in. Wouldn't muh care if either of them died, or if there was never another Dragon Age game that had anything to do with them.

[Aaleel]

Persephone wrote...

I have already said that IMO DAO offered little insight into the mage/templar conflict. Even as a mage Warden, I saw little of it & had to use my imagination as to why my Amell would be unhappy at the circle.

Every mage in DAII was crazy? Eh, no.

I was unhappy with Orsino's choice as well, even IF it was made out of utter despair. The endings, like the bugged endings in DAO, left much to be desired indeed. (I prefer the Templar ending, esp. now after Patch 1.03)

Origins offered good and bad images of mages and Templars.  DA2 had some good examples of templars.  But mages even those traveling with you were a danger to themselves and others aside from Bethany.  Mages you helped out that were free of circle "oppression" still became blood mages.  Mages that escaped the Circle, 2 out of the three went crazy anyway, killed their family or tried to kill their family.

When I made my decision at the end I still had to fight demons all over the streets of Kirkwall.  So it becomes a thing that it's so lopsided why should I even care or try and save these people.  Then the whole Orsino thing just, not only turning to harvester at the end.  But the letter I finally figured out with the mage that killed your mother, he supported this person, so he was out there all along.

[Soul Cool]

adneate wrote...
Talking to a few people is akin to doing nothing for someone of Hawke's social and economic status.

Tell that to Cicero.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You're viscount for all of five minutes and accomplish absolutely nothing.  Viscount Hawke is even more feckless than the usual.

And how is that different from being king consort/chancellor for 2 seconds in DAO?

One could argue Awakening, but for the most part, no it's  not that important in-game (though several variations exist and some impact relationship with say Alistair, such as him dumping you).

However what Origins did do better, is that it actually had a closer semblance to a rise to power. The Landsmeet was all about establishing connections with nobles, Antivan crows and try to win the support of major players like the Chantry or Anora. All the violence could be avoided save one short duel. Now add to that the variations in choice, and the fact that the Warden is leading an army, and it ends up being a somewhat decent political plot. 

Is it great? No, it's very flawed. But it's much more of a rise to power than the non-existant one in DA2.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Siding with Uldred goes beyond mages vs Templars, and goes into demon territory however.
Which btw, I think should be downplayed (especially seeing what happens in DA2). I prefer demons to be agents of temptation. Not "lulz all your base are belong to us!!" kind of evil force that DA2 was supposed to avoid. 

I think a story is very weak if it has to resort to an optional obscure codex to explain wtf is going on.

And I do not see the point of this direction, if it was deliberate. Why do they think it's a good idea?
I am more tempted to believe that the writers felt bad about being pressured to constantly bring in more and more violence, and seeing how they were pressured to rush it, brought in the codices as an attempt to explain the debacle.

Interesting points here, as always.

I would have liked to see demons handled more like the Desire Demon you face when entering the Harimann estate. I do agree that it was a bit much and the thin veil/past horrors base for this should have been explored in the game itself. It would have added a great deal of depth.

To me, it's not a debacle, far from it. It's a very interesting concept that worked on some fronts & failed at others. (Same as DAO, really) Again, I think that given more time, it would have turned out better. I still prefer it over DAO. A lot. Mainly because of Hawke and her companions. But we are on completely opposite ends here. And that's fine. It's what makes discussions interesting IMO. Esp. since you criticize DAII without bashing it but instead bring up excellent points. :happy:

[Aaleel]

I just wish that they would have just made some quest that ended up in the chamber the tevinter had used to thin the veil. Then the facts could have been put into evidence during the events of the game. Then take such facts to Orsino or Meredith.

I remember in Origins if you were a mage, the second you walked up on Warden's Keep you sensed the veil was thin, first step out the tunnel you knew. But in a case 100 times worse no one knows this?

Edit:  Honestly Hawke finding the first codex and then piecing it all together over the time until he/she finally found the chamber and figured what was causing some of the mages to be crazy would have been awesome.

Modifié par Aaleel, 06 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You're viscount for all of five minutes and accomplish absolutely nothing.  Viscount Hawke is even more feckless than the usual.

And how is that different from being king consort/chancellor for 2 seconds in DAO?

One could argue Awakening, but for the most part, no it's  not that important in-game (though several variations exist and some impact relationship with say Alistair, such as him dumping you).

However what Origins did do better, is that it actually had a closer semblance to a rise to power. The Landsmeet was all about establishing connections with nobles, Antivan crows and try to win the support of major players like the Chantry or Anora. All the violence could be avoided save one short duel. Now add to that the variations in choice, and the fact that the Warden is leading an army, and it ends up being a somewhat decent political plot. 

Is it great? No, it's very flawed. But it's much more of a rise to power than the non-existant one in DA2.

I dunno. To establish those connections to the nobles you have to kill kill kill. And never mind that you have to kill the second most powerful noble in all of Ferelden with pretty much no consequences. (Why did no noble question these methods at the Landsmeet? You clearly broke the law, after all.) Getting Anora on your side was well done, esp. her reaction if you do not play your cards right.

[Persephone]

Aaleel wrote...

I just wish that they would have just made some quest that ended up in the chamber the tevinter had used to thin the veil. Then the facts could have been put into evidence during the events of the game. Then take such facts to Orsino or Meredith.

I remember in Origins if you were a mage, the second you walked up on Warden's Keep you sensed the veil was thin, first step out the tunnel you knew. But in a case 100 times worse no one knows this?

^This. Yup. Would have been excellent.

[Serpieri Nei]

Hawke will always be remembered as the guy who stumbled into Kirkwall with his head up his ---

and no it wasn't his ass

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 06 juin 2011 - 04:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
I would have liked to see demons handled more like the Desire Demon you face when entering the Harimann estate. I do agree that it was a bit much and the thin veil/past horrors base for this should have been explored in the game itself. It would have added a great deal of depth.

I prefer demons being handled like that in the Cirdle tower with the Templar. Or like the Sundered quest. Demons, at least the powerful ones, were subtle. Not in your face type of threat.

Ultimately, the Pride Demon in the mage Origins is the best representation of a demon in DA imo, and should  base itself more on that in the future.

To me, it's not a debacle, far from it. It's a very interesting concept that worked on some fronts & failed at others. (Same as DAO, really) Again, I think that given more time, it would have turned out better. I still prefer it over DAO. A lot. Mainly because of Hawke and her companions. But we are on completely opposite ends here. And that's fine. It's what makes discussions interesting IMO. Esp. since you criticize DAII without bashing it but instead bring up excellent points. :happy:

The fact that is is a very interesting concept, makes me all the more harsher. And that's why I see it as a debacle, because for me, it failed on many fronts and not some. It potentially being better if it was given more time is not a consolation for me.

And since I believe that a character is only as interesting as the story he is projected in (if he's introduced in it), I cannot like Hawke solely for that reason. Unfortunately, I have also more reasons to dislike him, which I've listed.

And likewise of course, you know I enjoy discussing things with you, even seemingly complete opposite opinions

[adneate]

Soul Cool wrote...
Tell that to Cicero.

Cicero failed, the Republic was dead and the Senate was just a relic of bygone days. It's also a rather pointless parallel to draw, Kirkwall isn't a Republic it's a Monarchy. The Vicount makes the laws not an assembly of elected officials.