447 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Its already been pointed out in this thread that Hawke can explore the possibility of becoming Viscount. Hawke doesn't have to sit there and do nothing. Now if you want to complain about the set up of the game forcing Hawke into the situation where he can't take that any further and is powerless well thats a different issue. Plus its not like Hawke sits on his/her hands and does nothing about the Qunari.

You're viscount for all of five minutes and accomplish absolutely nothing.  Viscount Hawke is even more feckless than the usual.

And how is that different from being king consort/chancellor for 2 seconds in DAO?

Becoming consort is hardly the point.  You've gotten your authority to lead a country's armies, to lead a multi-national force in fact, by being a Warden.  If you're a Cousland then becoming consort is still notable, but if you're Dalish or a dwarf commoner then simply being where you are at the Landsmeet is a remarkable sea change.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
I dunno. To establish those connections to the nobles you have to kill kill kill. And never mind that you have to kill the second most powerful noble in all of Ferelden with pretty much no consequences. (Why did no noble question these methods at the Landsmeet? You clearly broke the law, after all.) Getting Anora on your side was well done, esp. her reaction if you do not play your cards right.

Yes, but the fact that it wasn't killing in the wave load, made it more bearable. Like I said, it's far from being perfect. But its previous actions having an impact later on (in the Landsmeet). And you need to talk to them to have them as allies after doing all the killing. DA2 had the advantage of having the game span years. I don't mind killing to make an ally with someone, who would prove useful years later. But it didn't take advantage of this opporrtunity. 

As for Howe, yea, I wanted an option to avoid killing him. And I think more consequences should have been there in regards to sparing Loghain or killing him (loyalists within the army or some of the bannorn should have been pissed depending on that choice).

And yes, I have said, I do not like how Origins had little alternatives to direct fighting (though I thought it was less awful than DA2 in that regards). In ME1, some quests could have been entirely resolved without violence (Kyle or Darius). In Kotor, you had a lot of quests that didn't involve killing and had the PC actually think for once.

And once again, Origins felt too bipolar for my tastes (Pro vs anti-Loghain) like every Bioware game. It only very marginally showed several factions at play, where more could have been done.

So yea, I am far from saying that Origins had a good political plot. I felt at best, it was decent in that regards but could have been much more. But it was much better than what we had in DA2 imo.

Of course TW2 crushes both of them combined with ease in that regard.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 juin 2011 - 04:22 .

[Soul Cool]

adneate wrote...
Cicero failed,

More like everyone else failed him.

adneate wrote...
the Republic was dead and the Senate was just a relic of bygone days. It's also a rather pointless parallel to draw, Kirkwall isn't a Republic it's a Monarchy. The Vicount makes the laws not an assembly of elected officials.

The point is that words can be used as pretty effective weapons against people all on their own. How the government works isn't a necessary part of that, unless you meant to make my point for me by saying that autocratic leaders have the final say in anything. A vast majority of the time, their words hold the power of life and death, not their actions.

[LobselVith8]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Do you like Hawke, or do you miss your Warden? If Hawke were to die, would it affect you?

I liked The Warden, I enjoyed having choices that shaped the outcome of the respective societies that he met during the Fifth Blight, and I feel I had a greater degree of control over the Hero of Ferelden than I did over the Champion of Kirkwall (such as choosing whether The Warden was religious or not, while DA2 took that out of my hands). Hawke's story forced him to be reactive, the storyline was linear, the choices didn't seem to matter, and even the endings are virtually identical to one another. As early as Dust Town and choosing King Bhelen we can hear that The Warden's decision made a change for the people, while Hawke has the capacity to bring change for the disenfranchised people of Darktown and the impoverished elves of the Alienage, and Hawke is denied the opportunity to implement change for these people.

Would Hawke's death affect me? I don't want the character to perish, I want the creators to provide us with the proactive protagonist who would be able to make choices that mattered that the advertisements and the developers on the forums promised us. Maybe the DLC will allow that, maybe an expansion will, but I think the character still has potential even though Varric's tale provided us with a reactive character who was trapped in a tale of failure and defeat.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Isn't the whole point of playing a video game that your actions have an influence on the outcome?  You're part of the story?  Otherwise I start to ask what the devs need me for, if all they want to do is tell a story and have it unfold the same way regardless of my input.  It might as well have been a movie or a fait accompli we're told about after the fact in a codex or cutscene.

Hehe, it's quite obvious you haven't played many games other than RPGs, have you?

Ryzaki wrote...
I hate that speech. 

Toegoff's Let's Play said it best. Putting epic music over a s**** speech doesn't make it an epic speech.  

I hate the sarcastic speech, but I really loved the aggresive one. Still, I felt that making the speech be defined by your tone was a very poor decision. I would've prefer it to be done like the speeches in ME.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

OP wrote...

Do you like Hawke as a character?

I think this is a nonsensical question.  Each player's PC could be wildly different from any other player's PC, so whether an one of us liked Hawke is not only a subjective question, but it's a subjective question about a different thing.  So the answers wouldn't be at all comparable.

Probably the first time I've ever fully agreed with one of Sylvius the Mad's posts.

[adneate]

Soul Cool wrote...
The point is that words can be used as pretty effective weapons against people all on their own. How the government works isn't a necessary part of that, unless you meant to make my point for me by saying that autocratic leaders have the final say in anything. A vast majority of the time, their words hold the power of life and death, not their actions.

Hawke doesn't live in a society where flowerly language means anything, Hawke lives in a world where power comes from either Blood or Violence. You are either born worth listening to or you have an army vast enough and deadly enough that you have to be listened to. If you have neither of those things you're opinion is worth nothing regardless of how well you state it. In a Feudal society might makes right and those who use violence effectively run the show, regardless of how well they speak or how "Noble" they are.

If Cicero wanted to do something practical to save The Republic he should have been a General with a couple Legions at his command rather than a Senator with a big vocabulary.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

You're viscount for all of five minutes and accomplish absolutely nothing. Viscount Hawke is even more feckless than the usual.

I don't see why anyone would even strive to be Viscount. Considering that being Viscount means little when the templars are the real power over eastern Thedas and the city-state of Kirkwall, it doesn't seem to mean much when it's essentially being the figurehead.

[Well]

LobselVith8 wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Do you like Hawke, or do you miss your Warden? If Hawke were to die, would it affect you?

I liked The Warden, I enjoyed having choices that shaped the outcome of the respective societies that he met during the Fifth Blight, and I feel I had a greater degree of control over the Hero of Ferelden than I did over the Champion of Kirkwall (such as choosing whether The Warden was religious or not, while DA2 took that out of my hands). Hawke's story forced him to be reactive, the storyline was linear, the choices didn't seem to matter, and even the endings are virtually identical to one another. As early as Dust Town and choosing King Bhelen we can hear that The Warden's decision made a change for the people, while Hawke has the capacity to bring change for the disenfranchised people of Darktown and the impoverished elves of the Alienage, and Hawke is denied the opportunity to implement change for these people.

Would Hawke's death affect me? I don't want the character to perish, I want the creators to provide us with the proactive protagonist who would be able to make choices that mattered that the advertisements and the developers on the forums promised us. Maybe the DLC will allow that, maybe an expansion will, but I think the character still has potential even though Varric's tale provided us with a reactive character who was trapped in a tale of failure and defeat.

Good job.

[KnightofPhoenix]

adneate wrote...
If Cicero wanted to do something practical to save The Republic he should have been a General with a couple Legions at his command rather than a Senator with a big vocabulary.

And certainly not try to manipulate a man who is ten times more astute and intelligent than he is.

[Addai]

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Isn't the whole point of playing a video game that your actions have an influence on the outcome?  You're part of the story?  Otherwise I start to ask what the devs need me for, if all they want to do is tell a story and have it unfold the same way regardless of my input.  It might as well have been a movie or a fait accompli we're told about after the fact in a codex or cutscene.

Hehe, it's quite obvious you haven't played many games other than RPGs, have you?

I haven't, but since it's an RPG we're talking about, I don't see how it matters?

[Chromie]

Addai67 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Isn't the whole point of playing a video game that your actions have an influence on the outcome?  You're part of the story?  Otherwise I start to ask what the devs need me for, if all they want to do is tell a story and have it unfold the same way regardless of my input.  It might as well have been a movie or a fait accompli we're told about after the fact in a codex or cutscene.

Hehe, it's quite obvious you haven't played many games other than RPGs, have you?

I haven't, but since it's an RPG we're talking about, I don't see how it matters?

The horse wasn't thinking.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Isn't the whole point of playing a video game that your actions have an influence on the outcome?  You're part of the story?  Otherwise I start to ask what the devs need me for, if all they want to do is tell a story and have it unfold the same way regardless of my input.  It might as well have been a movie or a fait accompli we're told about after the fact in a codex or cutscene.

Hehe, it's quite obvious you haven't played many games other than RPGs, have you?

I haven't, but since it's an RPG we're talking about, I don't see how it matters?

You said video game in your quote, not RPG. But it's not like I'm attacking you or anything.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ringo12 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Isn't the whole point of playing a video game that your actions have an influence on the outcome?  You're part of the story?  Otherwise I start to ask what the devs need me for, if all they want to do is tell a story and have it unfold the same way regardless of my input.  It might as well have been a movie or a fait accompli we're told about after the fact in a codex or cutscene.

Hehe, it's quite obvious you haven't played many games other than RPGs, have you?

I haven't, but since it's an RPG we're talking about, I don't see how it matters?

The horse wasn't thinking.

<_<
Addai did say video games and didn't specify RPGs.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

<_<
Addai did say video games and didn't specify RPGs.

I <3 you KoP.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
I <3 you KoP.

Oh and it's pony. Not horse. How can one confuse the two is beyond me.

[BroBear Berbil]

I liked my Wardens more mostly because I liked having a purpose that was clear to me early on and the game being driven by that purpose. I also find the darkspawn threat far more interesting than rags to riches and whiny mages.

Doubt *the* Warden comes back to play but I would definitely like playing *a* warden more than Hawke.

[ShepPunch]

Hawke never felt like *my* character, just a dude I was playing. I changed his appearance later but there's not a whole lot you can do that fits with that voice (if you're picky, like me).

Unless they can afford multiple VA's (like 3-4 for each gender), going back to non-voiced is more preferable imo - if DA is indeed a roleplaying game, I'd like to actually create my own character.

And as for liking Hawke as a character - no, not really, he was a glib smartass.

Modifié par ShepPunch, 06 juin 2011 - 08:07 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I dislike Hawke because he/she didn't seem like a developed character. Most of the decisions were two or three ways to say the same thing, not three different choices where the player had much input in sculpting the Hero of Kirkwall. And most of the decisions Hawke makes are rather just offering an opinion rather than actively changing events. As the Wallflower of Kirkwall, Hawke is unappealing to me. I hope any future for the Dragon Age franchise doesn't include Hawke or a character like Hawke as the main character. And if Bioware wants us to play a specific Bioware character, please make that character fully developed instead of bland and under-developed. If you don't define the main character give some of the player choices otherwise. Hawke was middle of the road between these two stances, and suffered from the drawbacks of each for me.

[RatHat]

I like hawke as a character, but I miss my warden too. Like 'em both I guess

[Bejos_]

If I could gain a handle on Hawke, I could answer the question.

As it is, he/she is a cypher. DA2 is not about your character, it is about the events surrounding your character. Given that that is the situation, I don't find myself at all invested in any way in the main character.

That isn't a good thing, though, is it? So on balance:

No, I don't like Hawke as a character,

Edit: This kind of characterisation reminds me of Michael Crichton books. The story can be fun (although, for me, DA2's story was not fun) even though the characters are afterthoughts.

Modifié par Bejos_, 06 juin 2011 - 12:56 .

[themonty72]

I liked Hawk he or she had a personality and i felt more connected to this character than my warden simply because he or she could talk.The warden was a mute. I didnt think anout my Warden when I got deeper into DA2, saying man I wish I had my warden instead of Hawk.

Modifié par themonty72, 06 juin 2011 - 01:27 .

[Bejos_]

themonty72 wrote...

I liked Hawk he or she had a personality and i felt more connected to this character than my warden simply because he or she could talk.The warden was a mute.

I wonder about the VO. For instance, if it was removed, would people still feel as connected as they do to Hawke?
And if DA:O had a VO for your character, would you think that the warden is better or worse than Hawke?

[themonty72]

Now If the the Warden could talk I would pick the Warden over Hawk any day.DAO would had been more epic if the Warden could talk

[Wulfram]

I think the game suffered somewhat from the combination of not having a clear motivation established for Hawke. You don't have your stereotypical "Save the World" or "Chosen One" plots, nor do you have a fully pre-defined character.

In Origins, all Wardens have a pretty clearly established main goal - defeat the Blight, which means kill the Archdemon. All the major plots can be based on the idea that you're working towards that goal.

Hawke on the other hand has nothing really like that. Which means that Hawke's actions and desires can't drive the story - his "rise to power" must be achieved through circumstance rather than cunning, because it needs to be able to happen to someone who doesn't want to rise to power.

Modifié par Wulfram, 06 juin 2011 - 01:34 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Bejos_ wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

I liked Hawk he or she had a personality and i felt more connected to this character than my warden simply because he or she could talk.The warden was a mute.

I wonder about the VO. For instance, if it was removed, would people still feel as connected as they do to Hawke?
And if DA:O had a VO for your character, would you think that the warden is better or worse than Hawke?

Good question. I think part of the answer is tied into how much you like the voice in question. If you hate the voice its going to make the character feel less like your own. But if the voice is one that works for you its going to increase that feeling of 'ownership.'

Its much more work, but I wish they had taken the route 'Saint's Row 2' did. In that they actually had 6 voices for the protaganist (3 of each gender). It would increase the odds of getting a voice that at least somewhat works for you and adds more replayability as well. Admittedly its not a realistic wish since you'd have to account for the three personality directions as well.

But I shift off topic a little. For me, its a little less important that he had a voice, and more that he actually took greater part in conversations. That I liked his voice and really related to the personality my version developed added to that feeling of connection.

I don't think my warden having a voice would have added to my feeling of ownership, mainly because the things that made me feel disconnected weren't tied to dialogue being unspoken. But I think having him participate in the 'walkaround' conversations would have increased my connection to the Companions.

If that makes any sense at all.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 06 juin 2011 - 01:45 .