447 réponses à ce sujet

[Bejos_]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

I liked Hawk he or she had a personality and i felt more connected to this character than my warden simply because he or she could talk.The warden was a mute.

I wonder about the VO. For instance, if it was removed, would people still feel as connected as they do to Hawke?
And if DA:O had a VO for your character, would you think that the warden is better or worse than Hawke?

Good question. I think part of the answer is tied into how much you like the voice in question. If you hate the voice its going to make the character feel less like your own. But if the voice is one that works for you its going to increase that feeling of 'ownership.'

Its much more work, but I wish they had taken the route 'Saint's Row 2' did. In that they actually had 6 voices for the protaganist (3 of each gender). It would increase the odds of getting a voice that at least somewhat works for you and adds more replayability as well. Admittedly its not a realistic wish since you'd have to account for the three personality directions as well.

But I shift off topic a little. For me, its a little less important that he had a voice, and more that he actually took greater part in conversations. That I liked his voice and really related to the personality my version developed added to that feeling of connection.

I don't think my warden having a voice would have added to my feeling of ownership, mainly because the things that made me feel disconnected weren't tied to dialogue being unspoken. But I think having him participate in the 'walkaround' conversations would have increased my connection to the Companions.

If that makes any sense at all.

It does. I also thought SR2 did a great job with their VOs.

Your reply had me wondering whether, if the warden had DA2's VO, I would like the character. I think maybe not. That's not to say that the VAs weren't good-- Bioware is good at casting talented people for their games. I didn't identify with the voice of either gender (and found the female one particularly unlikeable), but that's just my opinion. I can see how there would be people that did identify with the personality that infused the VOs.

All good points, Cutlass Jack.

[Huntress]

I like Both characters, but if I were to actually choose one, I liked my dalish warden alot! And none of my warden's died, why should hawke? Will it bother me if hawk or my warden had to die, YES it will bother me, alot.

[Huntress]

Bejos_ wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

I liked Hawk he or she had a personality and i felt more connected to this character than my warden simply because he or she could talk.The warden was a mute.

I wonder about the VO. For instance, if it was removed, would people still feel as connected as they do to Hawke?
And if DA:O had a VO for your character, would you think that the warden is better or worse than Hawke?

I like Hawke and without voice I'll probably feel the same as I did with the warden's, I wouldn't be able to compare/feel different because both are mute. If you mean bioware removed hawke voice like tomorrow, I will not feel good about the company and I would believe bioware have compleatly broke the franchise, and stop buying their product.

If DAO had voice or is implemented it will improve just as DA2 has with voiced main character, I think DAO will get alot better than DA2 ever be.

Of course I don't just like DA2 because it has voice character, I do like how much combat have been improved, companions moving away from mele is 100% improvement in my eyes, the mage in general have improved and the spells are very good also. I have made more mages and finished the game as a mage more times in DA2, that DAO.

I have 5 mages in DA2, I have 1 human warden mage in DAO and I had to force myself to play it.

[Addai]

Bejos_ wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

I liked Hawk he or she had a personality and i felt more connected to this character than my warden simply because he or she could talk.The warden was a mute.

I wonder about the VO. For instance, if it was removed, would people still feel as connected as they do to Hawke?
And if DA:O had a VO for your character, would you think that the warden is better or worse than Hawke?

For me the voice puts distance between me and the character, so the fact that the Warden is more part of my imagination rather than seen more often/ heard on screen makes the Warden a more living and solid and epic character.  Hawke is just another NPC and not even a very good one.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bejos_ wrote...

themonty72 wrote...

I liked Hawk he or she had a personality and i felt more connected to this character than my warden simply because he or she could talk.The warden was a mute.

I wonder about the VO. For instance, if it was removed, would people still feel as connected as they do to Hawke?
And if DA:O had a VO for your character, would you think that the warden is better or worse than Hawke?

For me, unvoiced makes it easier for me to connect with the character. That said, I can and do connect with voiced PCs as well, if they are well-written and projected in a well-written plot and world.

So the VO is but one facet for me, and not a crucial one.

[TheRealJayDee]

Huntress wrote...

Of course I don't just like DA2 because it has voice character, I do like how much combat have been improved, companions moving away from mele is 100% improvement in my eyes, the mage in general have improved and the spells are very good also. I have made more mages and finished the game as a mage more times in DA2, that DAO.

I have 5 mages in DA2, I have 1 human warden mage in DAO and I had to force myself to play it.

I started a few mages in DA2, but I never got past Act 1. The spells are okay, but the little staff fighting choreography got old pretty fast. And I just couldn't get over how there was little to no effect of you being an apostate in this particular setting. I may have been okay with it if I had at least been allowed to roleplay my Hawke was trying to hidehis nature by not wearing a robe and not wielding a staff ALL THE TIME. Except of course in the safety of your home, here it is okay not to do your best to give away what you are - makes sense, your family already knows you're a mage after all.

They really should have made the mage playthrough noticeably different from the others. As it is now the mage is just not an option for me to play, sadly...

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 06 juin 2011 - 03:38 .

[Pasquale1234]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Of course I don't just like DA2 because it has voice character, I do like how much combat have been improved, companions moving away from mele is 100% improvement in my eyes, the mage in general have improved and the spells are very good also. I have made more mages and finished the game as a mage more times in DA2, that DAO.

I have 5 mages in DA2, I have 1 human warden mage in DAO and I had to force myself to play it.

I started a few mages in DA2, but I never got past Act 1. The spells are okay, but the little staff fighting choreography got old pretty fast. And I just couldn't get over how there was little to no effect of you being an apostate in this particular setting. I may have been okay with it if I had at least been allowed to roleplay my Hawke was trying to hidehis nature by not wearing a robe and not wielding a staff ALL THE TIME. Except of course in the safety of your home, here it is okay not to do your best to give away what you are - makes sense, your family already knows you're a mage after all.

They really should have made the mage playthrough noticeably different from the others. As it is now the mage is just not an option for me to play, sadly...

This.  ^

I found quite a few wtf moments in this game, and had to work pretty hard to suspend disbelief throughout.  For the most part, I was successful, but just couldn't manage a mage playthrough.

[Davasar]

Since Hawke is someone elses character:

I am sure that to the Bioware employee who made Hawke, the character is interesting.

Hawke on my critique scale doesn't even rate.

In order for me to decide whether I like an RPG character of mine, it is to be...well...MINE.

[Sanguinerin]

I don't have a problem with a voiced protagonist. My Shepard characters are my creations. I loved Jo Wyatt's voice over as well, with the exception of some utterly tasteless "comedy" lines that I would never have chosen in a million years, had I known what she was going to actually say.

The problem is that Hawke has little impact. At least, it feels like s/he has little impact. DAII kind of drowned us in plot-driving character deaths for one. I'm all for a good story where someone has to die--take the Cousland family for instance. However, it feels like you really can't save anyone in DAII in comparison. I feel like Hawke is just another helpless person being driven by other events, while running errands for -everyone-!

The Warden didn't feel like that. I actually felt like my character was making a difference, and making difficult decisions. Hawke fell flat (in my opinion) because the story didn't offer enough opportunities to really feel like s/he accomplished anything.

[LobselVith8]

highcastle wrote...

Cross Hassan wrote...

I like Hawke as a character but i always feel proud to be playing with a Grey Warden fighting the Darkspawn. They are respect by everyone

Well, you know...except by Loghain...Arl Howe...everyone who asks you to do something for them before they honor the treaties...

Everyone? I don't agree with that analysis. The Warden's position as a member of a legendary order is why people turn to him for aid, from the Mages Collective to the Blackstone Irregulars, from Bann Tegan to Queen Anora, from the Keeper Zathrian to Prince Bhelen. People can't lend aid when their Dalish hunters are crippled by lycantrophy or when their dwarven people are on the edge of a potential civil war over the throne.

I.AM.DUNCAN wrote...

Everyone is saying that Hawke didn't have as much of an influence as the Warden did. I agree and disagree. I will completely agree if you add "yet" to the end of the statement. Hawke's story is not finished yet. So he may very well have a gigantanormous influence on the world.

Hawke should have had some influence in Dragon Age 2, though; he should have been able to change the very city-state he lived in, to use his position in Act II or Act III to enable change. It's a flaw that I'm hoping is rectified in the future with DLC or an expansion, that will hopefully allow Hawke to be proactive and use his intelligence rather than have the Idiot Ball forced into his hands while everyone else does (i.e. for example, when you can tell Cullen about a "certain event" and he, like Elthina, does absolutely nothing about it).

[Huntress]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Of course I don't just like DA2 because it has voice character, I do like how much combat have been improved, companions moving away from mele is 100% improvement in my eyes, the mage in general have improved and the spells are very good also. I have made more mages and finished the game as a mage more times in DA2, that DAO.

I have 5 mages in DA2, I have 1 human warden mage in DAO and I had to force myself to play it.

I started a few mages in DA2, but I never got past Act 1. The spells are okay, but the little staff fighting choreography got old pretty fast. And I just couldn't get over how there was little to no effect of you being an apostate in this particular setting. I may have been okay with it if I had at least been allowed to roleplay my Hawke was trying to hidehis nature by not wearing a robe and not wielding a staff ALL THE TIME. Except of course in the safety of your home, here it is okay not to do your best to give away what you are - makes sense, your family already knows you're a mage after all.

They really should have made the mage playthrough noticeably different from the others. As it is now the mage is just not an option for me to play, sadly...

I didn't notes any difference on mages in DAO, exemple: Morrigan, Wynne and mY warden mage all used same style of fighting. pewpew and got hit by mele, none of them moved away, Did the Elf mage has any different style? I ask because as I said before have only played 1 human mage, so I compare My warden to humans mages in the party.

Tell me what difference did you notes in DAO playing as an elf Mage vs Human mage. Please.

I do not even notes the movements of my mages in DA2, I do notes when they move away from mele attack, without me having to pull them away however.

Yes it will make great difference if it said you are apostate and using magic in the city templars and guard agro and try to kill you or stop you, but then having a house in say city will make no sense, will it now?

I want to add that not one stoped the warden for having an apostate mage in the party, not even the templars in the circle, and remember the warden was 90% of the game been hunted/ called traitor and yet he/she enter denerim city without any troubles with say apostate and the apostate used magic within the city. If you want to find imperfections lets go to the roots.

Modifié par Huntress, 06 juin 2011 - 06:52 .

[Archereon]

I really hope we don't play as Hawke in Dragon Age 2. Honestly we should get a new protagonist all-together. The rEApers would never let BioWare bring the Warden back, not if they have to voice all six possible genders-race combos for him/her, and they do have to voice them.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ipgd wrote...

I still enjoy DAO plenty from a metagame perspective, and I've replayed it many times, but I don't think it had a very good framework with which to build a distinct personal character as you went. Nobody really cared who the Warden was; if I ended up with a defined character by the end of it it would have been entirely through my own external efforts, and if I'm putting that much work into creating a character I might as well be doing something less restrictive like PnP or freeform.

Those generally require other players, though.

I insist that the sole objective of a single--player CRPG is to reproduce the gameplay experience of the tabletop game, but without the need for other players.  And that's exactly what I want.

It's interesting how people seem to take agency for granted. An excerpt from some other gangrenously bloated ****** I've written on this topic:

Though all games are interactive, few games allow the player agency within the narrative. "Gameplay" and "story" are usually sharply divided; the player interacts with the game through mechanical sequences that may resemble combat, platforming, puzzle solving, etc. depending on the game in question, but these sequences rarely affect the story. The core narrative is typically told "on rails", allowing the player to get off and "play" at predetermined spots clearly delineated by the game. The player may act out the acquisition of a key plot item or the demise of a villain, ostensibly becoming a key participant in the important events that shape the story, but he ultimately remains at the whim of the narrative; he, in effect, is only able to do what the game tells him to do. Some games are extremely linear in this respect, while others allow a more meandering approach of variable chronology, but in practice, most games have a singular narrative.

Roleplaying games, Bioware games in particular, are quite different in that respect -- by making dialogue interaction part of the gameplay itself, the game allows the player to take an active role in the direction of the narrative. Instead of simply acting out certain sequences in the narrative, the game presents the player with several branching paths that each bring the story to a different place; though these paths are also limited in number, technically little different from games with singular narratives, the presence of choice gives the player the impression that he, the player (separate from, though often in alignment with, the fictional protagonist(s)), is a critical agent within the narrative itself. In reality, he is still only able to accomplish whatever the developers have laid out for him within the confines of the game, but this feeling of agency is incredibly critical to the genre. It is an additional layer of emotional engagement that is not available to most other mediums.

Contrary to the normal path of video games, Dragon Age makes agency the standard. Rather than giving us rare moments of player agency in order to make the player feel personally responsible for the event, we expect to have agency -- and when it isn't there, we notice. Because something had deviated from the standard, it makes us feel something that purely linear narratives couldn't; at no point do we ever expect to, say, decide whether Mario rescues the princess or joins up with Bowser at the end, and we don't feel frustrated or stripped of anything when we can't impact that decision. But with Dragon Age, we do, and through that denial, the game ilicits emotions in the player that mirrors Hawke's own powerlessness.

And I think that's terrible.  The player's emotions aren't ever relevant.  The player is safely within his chosen gaming environment, and I would hope he's enjoying himself.  His character might feel a wide range of emotions - as determined by the player - but as soon as the game frustrates the player the player is experiencing a meta-game event.  And that's never a good thing.

The game should not, under any circumstances, attempt to appeal to the player's emotions, because as soon as it succeeds in doing so it forces the player to break character to acknowledge it.

I would rather play my character without ever being reminded that he's fictional, or that I exist independently from him.  My preferences shouldn't matter.  My emotions shouldn't matter.

It's certainly non-standard but I would argue that it's objectively bad or without artistic value. Other mediums have used dramatic denial and approached themes of personal failure since the dawn of time -- why not video games? Why can video games not use the inherent strengths of its medium to instill empathy with the failures of the protagonist, in addition to his successes?

They can.  They do.  But the specific failures and successes of the protagonist, from the protagonist's point of view, are unknown to the developer.  What you descirbe can only ever be true if the player is first denied agency, and if that happens the game has already failed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Good question. I think part of the answer is tied into how much you like the voice in question. If you hate the voice its going to make the character feel less like your own. But if the voice is one that works for you its going to increase that feeling of 'ownership.'

I completely disagree.  Given how the voice is implemented, there is no voice that would make the game better than it would be without one.

Even if they happen to have a voice that suits a character of mine perfectly, and he always says exactly what I want exactly as I want him to say it, what happens when I play another (completely different) character?  If one of my characters is supportive, but the other is condescending, the voice is guaranteed to fail at least one of them.

There is no possible voice which is better than silence.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Davasar wrote...

Since Hawke is someone elses character:

I am sure that to the Bioware employee who made Hawke, the character is interesting.

Hawke on my critique scale doesn't even rate.

In order for me to decide whether I like an RPG character of mine, it is to be...well...MINE.

I refuse to acknowledge that Hawke is not my character.  Him being my character should be the entire point of the game, so I do not consider the alternative.

As such, I think Hawke is just very poorly implemented.  Since the game so often fails to allow Hawke to behave as I see fit, the game is sloppily made.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I.AM.DUNCAN wrote...

Everyone is saying that Hawke didn't have as much of an influence as the Warden did. I agree and disagree. I will completely agree if you add "yet" to the end of the statement. Hawke's story is not finished yet. So he may very well have a gigantanormous influence on the world.

Hawke should have had some influence in Dragon Age 2, though; he should have been able to change the very city-state he lived in, to use his position in Act II or Act III to enable change. It's a flaw that I'm hoping is rectified in the future with DLC or an expansion, that will hopefully allow Hawke to be proactive and use his intelligence rather than have the Idiot Ball forced into his hands while everyone else does (i.e. for example, when you can tell Cullen about a "certain event" and he, like Elthina, does absolutely nothing about it).

We paid for a full game, we should get a full story, without having to pay more for DLC.

[Teddie Sage]

Which Hawke? The Good one, the Sarcastic one or the Arrogant one? There are three different kind of Hawkes and they're all the same person. Personally, I prefer playing a dominant sarcastic and good Hawke over the rest.

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke should have had some influence in Dragon Age 2, though; he should have been able to change the very city-state he lived in, to use his position in Act II or Act III to enable change. It's a flaw that I'm hoping is rectified in the future with DLC or an expansion, that will hopefully allow Hawke to be proactive and use his intelligence rather than have the Idiot Ball forced into his hands while everyone else does (i.e. for example, when you can tell Cullen about a "certain event" and he, like Elthina, does absolutely nothing about it).

Hawke did try to do something about it he was just powerless to do anything until the end.

[TheRealJayDee]

Huntress wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Of course I don't just like DA2 because it has voice character, I do like how much combat have been improved, companions moving away from mele is 100% improvement in my eyes, the mage in general have improved and the spells are very good also. I have made more mages and finished the game as a mage more times in DA2, that DAO.

I have 5 mages in DA2, I have 1 human warden mage in DAO and I had to force myself to play it.

I started a few mages in DA2, but I never got past Act 1. The spells are okay, but the little staff fighting choreography got old pretty fast. And I just couldn't get over how there was little to no effect of you being an apostate in this particular setting. I may have been okay with it if I had at least been allowed to roleplay my Hawke was trying to hidehis nature by not wearing a robe and not wielding a staff ALL THE TIME. Except of course in the safety of your home, here it is okay not to do your best to give away what you are - makes sense, your family already knows you're a mage after all.

They really should have made the mage playthrough noticeably different from the others. As it is now the mage is just not an option for me to play, sadly...

Okay, I’m honestly not sure about how to interpret parts of your response, but I’ll try to answer your points.
 

Huntress wrote...

I didn't notes any difference on mages in DAO, exemple: Morrigan, Wynne and mY warden mage all used same style of fighting. pewpew and got hit by mele, none of them moved away, Did the Elf mage has any different style? I ask because as I said before have only played 1 human mage, so I compare My warden to humans mages in the party.

Tell me what difference did you notes in DAO playing as an elf Mage vs Human mage. Please.

I do not even notes the movements of my mages in DA2, I do notes when they move away from mele attack, without me having to pull them away however.

 
I never said mages in DA:O had any kind of different ‘fighting style’, based on race or whatever. All mages point their staff in the direction of their adversary and pewpew their magic bullets, you’re totally right about that. The thing is I was a lot happier with this than with the way DA2 handled it. Because I notice the movements of the DA2 mages, and while I have to agree that the DA:O pewpew wasn’t all that exciting I can’t help but feel the funny DA2 dance is just ridiculous. Especially because every mage in your party does it exactly the same way. Okay, for the first few battles it feels more dynamic, but when you see an apostate mage, a possessed circle mage and a blood mage/dalish keeper doing it in perfect synchronicity something just feels odd… (although it looked spectacular!)
 

Huntress wrote...
Yes it will make great difference if it said you are apostate and using magic in the city templars and guard agro and try to kill you or stop you, but then having a house in say city will make no sense, will it now?

 
What exactly are you saying here? That it would make a difference if the world in DA2 reacted to apostate Hawke according to its rules as opposed to not reacting at all? Agreed. That it doesn’t really make much sense for Hawke to live in Kirkwall? Oh, so much agreed!
 

Huntress wrote...

I want to add that not one stoped the warden for having an apostate mage in the party, not even the templars in the circle, and remember the warden was 90% of the game been hunted/ called traitor and yet he/she enter denerim city without any troubles with say apostate and the apostate used magic within the city. If you want to find imperfections lets go to the roots.

 
I’ve actually written in length about this before, but I’ll try to give a short summary. The Warden was above the normal laws due to, well, his status as a Grey Warden. There is a Blight going on, so anyone who respects and honours his status will not get into fight with him over the strange lady he’s travelling with. Anybody who considers him a traitor or wishes him ill him for whatever reasons will take actions against him anyways – and this happens all the time. The Templars at the circle aren’t as fanatic as their brothers from Kirkwall, and they have pretty big problems of their own. The Warden travels through all of Ferelden, and in most places being apostate or not matters little. Mages are also physically able to put away their obvious staffs and dress in regular clothing.
 
Yes, the Warden being accompanied by Morrigan would be problem
IF the Warden wasn’t a Warden, but some ordinary guy
IF the whole game was centred around a Denerim ruled by fanatic Templars
IF the (not-)Warden decided to stay in said city for many years
IF there wasn’t some outside threat like a ****ing Blight to keep peoples attention
IF the (not-)Warden would also regularly hang out with at least one other obvious apostate
etc

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 07 juin 2011 - 03:21 .

[Bejos_]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Good question. I think part of the answer is tied into how much you like the voice in question. If you hate the voice its going to make the character feel less like your own. But if the voice is one that works for you its going to increase that feeling of 'ownership.'

I completely disagree.  Given how the voice is implemented, there is no voice that would make the game better than it would be without one.

Even if they happen to have a voice that suits a character of mine perfectly, and he always says exactly what I want exactly as I want him to say it, what happens when I play another (completely different) character?  If one of my characters is supportive, but the other is condescending, the voice is guaranteed to fail at least one of them.

There is no possible voice which is better than silence.

Mm, I don't know about that. It's possible that having 2 or 3 voices for each race/gender would allow for people to feel more ownership of or connection with their character, even though they dislike the VOs available to them. It's a simple psychological fact: If someone chooses something of their own volition, they tend to like it more than if it's forced on them.

So even if I dislike, for example, the 2 voices that are selectable for my male human, my choosing Voice A instead of Voice B for a playthrough would result in me automatically liking Voice A more than I do Voice B.

Ideally, we should get more voices to choose from for our characters. I don't know that Bioware would be willing to spend the money in that direction but ...

Given that DA:O and DA2 are such different games, and that they'll likely be trying an inbetween approach for DA3, it might be reasonable for them to experiment (as they apparently like to do, now ...) with having several voices for us to choose from. After all, they don't need to spend money on changing the engine anymore; the money thus saved should go to something material ...

Hint, hint, Bioware. Please?

[Morroian]

Bejos_ wrote...

Given that DA:O and DA2 are such different games, and that they'll likely be trying an inbetween approach for DA3, it might be reasonable for them to experiment (as they apparently like to do, now ...) with having several voices for us to choose from. After all, they don't need to spend money on changing the engine anymore; the money thus saved should go to something material ...

Hint, hint, Bioware. Please?

I'd rather the funds be put to more unique environments and quests or even refining the engine further to allow more environmental assets. After all doesn't TW only have 1 VA and a lot of people who don't like DA2 like TW2.

[ironysteeth]

One thing kinda annoyed me about the character creation: You hadda go with the default face for the scar. I wish I coulda added it to a custom face. I have to say the family story for hawk made an impact on me. And in some ways that made a deeper connection with me than warden.

But I have to say that I like warden better. At least for now. This may be unfair, however, because there is just so much more content available for the warden. Maybe if DA2 gets a full on expansion and 3 or 4 DLC modules like DAO has, my opinion could change.

[Bejos_]

Morroian wrote...

Bejos_ wrote...

Given that DA:O and DA2 are such different games, and that they'll likely be trying an inbetween approach for DA3, it might be reasonable for them to experiment (as they apparently like to do, now ...) with having several voices for us to choose from. After all, they don't need to spend money on changing the engine anymore; the money thus saved should go to something material ...

Hint, hint, Bioware. Please?

I'd rather the funds be put to more unique environments and quests or even refining the engine further to allow more environmental assets. After all doesn't TW only have 1 VA and a lot of people who don't like DA2 like TW2.

If the story focuses on a set character, like Geralt is, sure, I absolutely wouldn't mind the exclusive VO. But the point with DA is that Hawke is supposed to be our Hawke. He or she is supposed to be (as) unique (as game constraints allow).

I'm not convinced lacklustre/repetitive art assets are a result of budget constraints. I gleamed from interviews that they thought environment wasn't important. "This extra stuff in DA:O? Random clutter strewn on tables and along the ground? The varying environments? That's not what RP-ers like about RPGs."
Sure, I'm paraphrasing, but they actually said that.

I gather they focused mostly on the combat and the art-style, more than anything else.
And seeing as DLC is meant to specifically address much of the DA2 criticism, it's maybe not too much of a stretch to ask for at least one extra voice per gender.