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[hoorayforicecream]

tmp7704 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

There's also Isabela's romance commentary, Varric's (bugged) romance commentary, and early Act 2 Leandra.

I didn't romance Isabela (we agreed to keep it at casual sex level) or anyone else for this matter, so also didn't get Varric's commentary. That would leave Leandra which could have happened, i'm not 100% sure it didn't. So overall... two mentions in entire game for me. Really, still not much difference from DAO

Actually, Isabela's romance commentary happens if you romance anyone but her (or Sebastian). Regardless, just because you didn't see them doesn't mean that they don't exist. It just means that it's not that different from DA:O for you. It was pretty different for me, I found it very refreshing.

[xkg]

highcastle wrote...
It's not about the act of killing Howe, it's about how Cousland feels about it. And if no one asks him, "Do you have closure?" or "How do you feel?" than how do we know how he feels? Does he have that closure? Has he realized that one more death doesn't change anything, that it doesn't bring back his family? We don't know because the game refuses to address it. 

How do we know how he feels ? You should know that, because you are playing that character. Why should the game know ?

Lets say you are playing Cousland in PnP setting and your friends are playing Alister, Oghren and Leliana.
They are asking you - how do you (Cousland) feel now after killing Howe. Who should answer ?
You (the person playing Cousland character) or Game Master ?

Modifié par xkg, 05 juin 2011 - 06:20 .

[highcastle]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

There's also Isabela's romance commentary, Varric's (bugged) romance commentary, and early Act 2 Leandra.

I didn't romance Isabela (we agreed to keep it at casual sex level) or anyone else for this matter, so also didn't get Varric's commentary. That would leave Leandra which could have happened, i'm not 100% sure it didn't. So overall... two mentions in entire game for me. Really, still not much difference from DAO

Actually, Isabela's romance commentary happens if you romance anyone but her (or Sebastian). Regardless, just because you didn't see them doesn't mean that they don't exist. It just means that it's not that different from DA:O for you. It was pretty different for me, I found it very refreshing.

Agreed. And there are actually plenty of comments on the LIs. Isabela, Leandra, Gamlen, Varric, Anders (if you don't romance him), and Sebastian will all potentially speak to you about your LI. Other characters (like Merrill, for instance) will bring it up in banters. While Origins acknowledged your romance to a degree, DA2 definitely exceded that for me.

[ItsTheTruth]

ItsTheTruth wrote...

Hawke is the lamest character in fiction history. Remember that cutscene when Hawke enters his new mansion and dresses in silk pajama, a satisfied grin on his face? I think that was about 2 minutes after his sister died too.

That is the moment I started wishing Hawke could die an horrible death in the game.

And that reminds me, there was that horror movie of a love scene with Merrill "Zombie Hands" just after killing her whole clan. Again stupid Hawke had that dumb grin on his face.

[hoorayforicecream]

xkg wrote...

highcastle wrote...
It's not about the act of killing Howe, it's about how Cousland feels about it. And if no one asks him, "Do you have closure?" or "How do you feel?" than how do we know how he feels? Does he have that closure? Has he realized that one more death doesn't change anything, that it doesn't bring back his family? We don't know because the game refuses to address it. 

How do we know how he feels ? You should know that, because you are playing that character. Why should the game know ?

Lets say you are playing Cousland in PnP setting and your friends are playing Alister, Oghren and Leliana.
They are asking you - how do you (Cousland) feel now after killing Howe. Who should answer ?
You (the person playing Cousland character) or Game Master ?

How does one get to express that feeling though? Wouldn't it come through the choices and scenarios brought forth by the game master?

[Addai]

I dislike Hawke a lot. I don't care if I ever see her again.

[highcastle]

xkg wrote...

highcastle wrote...
It's not about the act of killing Howe, it's about how Cousland feels about it. And if no one asks him, "Do you have closure?" or "How do you feel?" than how do we know how he feels? Does he have that closure? Has he realized that one more death doesn't change anything, that it doesn't bring back his family? We don't know because the game refuses to address it. 

How do we know how he feels ? You should know that, because you are playing that character. Why should the game know ?

Lets say you are playing Cousland in PnP setting and your friends are playing Alister, Oghren and Leliana.
They are asking you - how do you (Cousland) feel now after killing Howe. Who should answer ?
You (the person playing Cousland character) or Game Master ?

You as the character should answer. But no one in DAO asks this question. That's my point. My point's not about whether we know how we feel. The point is that the game doesn't care. And if the game wants me to care about it, then I want to feel like it (and its characters) care about my PC. I never got that impression in DAO.

As ipgd said earlier, the Warden felt more like an empty shell. And since no one acknowledged his emotions or feelings, the tendency to metagame was stronger. I tried to avoid it, but I still ended up inserting myself more than I'm comfortable with. Hawke, on the other hand, could be played as a fully-fleshed out and realized character independent of the player's meta motivations. More characters ask about Hawke's feelings, which means he has them and that they matter.

[Maderek]

Hawke is just another Create-A-Character.

Whether or not I like him/her depends on which Hawke.

[KnightofPhoenix]

highcastle wrote...
Saying it's superficial is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it was not. And it does not end the same way. He can stay and comfort you or he can leave if you want him to. Hey look, it's one of those choice things everyone keeps saying are lacking in this game (perhaps because they're overlooking choices like these)?

Does telling him to leave have any other consequence than him leaving? Because if that's one of the choices I should rejoice over, then color me unimpressed.

And the other  three dialogue options end in the exact same way. "I am here for you".
It's confined to one line of dialogue, and one line in response ending in the same scenario. Anders sitting right next to Hawke and trying to comfort him.

Nor did I find it shallow. This is precisely the sort of moment I wanted to see in DAO. When I killed Howe, I wanted my LI to ask me how I was feeling. It would have provided some form of emotional connection or resonance.

Same, but if it's like this, while it would be a scene I'd appreciate, I wouldn't be going around saying that it made a breakthrough in regards to reactivity.

 But in comparison to the Warden, yes, Hawke's emotions matter more to the story line. Hawke emoted. People reacted.

Not enough for me to think they really cared, or that Hawke's emotions (and entire existence for that matter) mattered for the story which I see as a debacle.

But if it worked for you, good on you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 juin 2011 - 06:26 .

[tmp7704]

highcastle wrote...

Gamlen, Varric, and Anders have snippets about Carver being in the wardens that I can recall at present. Plus, you interact with Carver in Act 2 and three times in Act 3. There are also letters from him, reminding you of his presence.

Yes, there's mentions from Carver himself which is why i put "mentions by someone other than Carver himself" in my reply. Do the mentions from Gamlen, Varric and Anders require some specific relationship level or dominant personality or dialogue choices in order to trigger? Because i really can't remember getting them.

I do know how Cousland feels. But the game refuses to acknowledge it and that's sort of my point. It doesn't matter if the game tells me it doesn't matter.

But the game doesn't tell you it doesn't matter. It's how you choose to interpret the lack of option to express it, but it's just one interpretation. You can just as well decide instead "it matters because it matters to my character, it affects his/her thought process and feelings the way i envision them."

But when the game's characters go out of their way to ask my feelings, then those emotions become valid and I have a legitimate opportunity to reflect them.

Except emotions are valid no matter if you get opportunity to express them or not. They may be not known to others, but that's entirely different kettle of fish from not valid.

[TheRealJayDee]

Hm.

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

When making those choices, don't you feel that you are creating a rationale for your Warden and applying it?

I didn't, really. When I was approaching these choices, it wasn't about what the Warden would do, but what I would do. I was scarcely aware of the Warden at all.

Interesting, because that's not at all how I played the game and have problems understanding how you could. Whatever I did was exactly what my Warden would do. Example: on my second playthrough I as the player was really determined to desecrate Andraste's ashes. But I as my mage Warden ended up killing the crazy cult leader after meeting him for the first time because he was ****ing disrespectful to me. No Reaver spec for me in this playthrough as well.

ipgd wrote...

My motivations would boil down to a meta desire to do what I would do, or deliberately choose things I wouldn't do because I wanted to see the outcome as a detached player.

Again, I don't really understand how that works. That's not how I could play an RPG, at least not for the first few playthroughs. 

ipgd wrote...


With Hawke, I did get the impression that he had some sort of personal stake in nearly everything. He felt like he continuously existed as a character, and that influenced all of the decisions I made in the game. I made my choices based on what he would have done -- and while the character I'd created in him was often very similar to what would have happened if I were just playing a "what would I do" avatar, the thought process involved was extremely different, hence the immersion.

This was actually part of what I was missing in DA2. "What would Hawke do?" didn't really go well because I didn't feel Hawke was enough fleshed out as a character of his own to begin with to really get a feeling for his motivations, but was too restricted in his actions and choices to get anywhere near the kind of freedom I would have needed to play "my" Hawke.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 05 juin 2011 - 06:34 .

[Zjarcal]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

There's also Isabela's romance commentary, Varric's (bugged) romance commentary, and early Act 2 Leandra.

I didn't romance Isabela (we agreed to keep it at casual sex level) or anyone else for this matter, so also didn't get Varric's commentary. That would leave Leandra which could have happened, i'm not 100% sure it didn't. So overall... two mentions in entire game for me. Really, still not much difference from DAO 

Actually, Isabela's romance commentary happens if you romance anyone but her (or Sebastian). Regardless, just because you didn't see them doesn't mean that they don't exist. It just means that it's not that different from DA:O for you. It was pretty different for me, I found it very refreshing.

Indeed. And to claim that it's no different than DAO just because one didn't see it is rather unfair. I myself got more refernces to Merrill's romance than Leliana's, though to be fair, I was playing the F/F Leli romance which gets less references than the male one (in banters).

On topic, yes I love my Hawke. Carry on with the Hawke hate/indifference.

[Master Shiori]

tmp7704 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

Sure, you got dialogue and options at certain points in the story that were specific to your origin, but your companions never bothered to simply ask how you're doing and whether or not you had problems that need to be voiced.

But do they, in DA2? (aside from the death thing)

I only remember one such instance -- after the time lapse you "catch up" with Varric which boils down to Varric asking "You cool, Hawke?" and me getting options to tell him "Yes, i'm doing well, thank you", "Yah i'm cool, lol" and "I'm fine, quit bothering me." Which.. well, i wouldn't really call an improvement to the point where it'd set both games apart.

They do actually. Off the top of my head:

• Fenris will ask you about your life in Lothering an whether you want to return there
• Varric will ask you about your plans at the start of Act 2 and also mention your sibling
• Isabela and Fenris will both express their condolences about your dead sibling while in your active party, provided you click on them
• Merrill will ask how you're doing if Bethany gets taken to the Circle and possibly for Carver becoming a Warden or a templar, though I'm not 100% sure on that one
• Isabela and Varric will comment on your LI
• Anders will comment on your relationship with Fenris or Merrill
• Bodhan and Leandra will both comment about your dead sibling and Leandra will commnet about your LI
• Meredith will bring up your mother's death at the start of Act 3
• King Alistair will ask whether you still consider Ferelden to be your home and if you'd be willing to go back there one day

These are the ones that currently come to mind. I'd have to dig through my saves for more.

[Ryzaki]

ElleMullineux wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

But the game doesn't tell you it doesn't matter. It's how you choose to interpret the lack of option to express it, but it's just one interpretation. You can just as well decide instead "it matters because it matters to my character, it affects his/her thought process and feelings the way i envision them."

Perhaps another example here is after the Landsmeet, if you are in a relationship with Alistair and make him king and aren't the human nobel female, you get dumped... in front of everyone.


No one says a thing.

 

No one says anything about Hawke murder knifing her lover either to be honest. Or handing him over to his slave owner (other than the exact same thing they'd say about her doing it if they weren't lovers.) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 juin 2011 - 06:34 .

[Addai]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Somewhat unrelated, but just like renegade / paragon, friendship / rivalry does not reward you if you are moderate and do not maximize either. Except you might lose more than in ME, because you have an entire skill tree for companions that remains locked.

The skill tree isn't locked, just the passive bonus.

Friendship/rivalry only really punishes you if you deliberately try to metagame a relationship contrary to the stances you actually take in the game.

Not true.  I found myself metagaming in order to manipulate the rivalry/ friendship scale, whereas natural RP had gotten me nowhere with particular characters.  Example- playing a chaotic good or chaotic neutral mage, who values freedom, will kill slavers and help mages, and these will cancel out on Fenris' scale.  Helping mages and telling Anders he's an abomination, or helping mages and thinking Merrill's mirror is a bad idea, likewise.

[tmp7704]

ipgd wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Because the game gives me no reason to care. No one else in the world does, so why should I?

Let me get it straight, you're asking "why should i role-play my character while playing an RPG."?

I may as well ask in return why play the game in the first place, then?

Unless my character is given opportunities to establish himself as an actual character, his desires aren't going to win over my desire to metagame and substitute that lack of characterization with my own motivations.

I suppose it calls for a follow-up question, then. If the game gives you impression that the motivations of the character are meaningless (by not giving you opportunity to express them) why even metagame it? The game equally doesn't care about your personal motivations after all. And using your own reasoning, if no one else in the world cares about these motivations, why should you?

As sidenote, i'd consider the "lack of characterization" to be something that's usually done on purpose, to allow you to fill the blanks with your own ideas which may be actually different from your own, personal motivations. Aka role-playing.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 juin 2011 - 06:39 .

[Anathemic]

In response to the OP:

No I do not like Hawke, I found the Warden more interesting, but even then the Warden was an average character. If Hawke were to die, I would feel... joy.

I find other characters more interesting such as the SC2's Jim Raynor, for character development is shown (a bit cliche) in the game. And it's not even a RPG!

For more recent games, I find the cast of TW2 way more interesting than Hawke's story by a longshot.

Modifié par Anathemic, 05 juin 2011 - 06:39 .

[Aaleel]

I got a lot of references to my relationship with Leliana. Alistar asks about it, Morrigan, Wynne asks if it's the best thing that you two date, and keeps asking you about all the way to when she pretty much apologizes for interfering in your affairs.

Then there's the party banter when Wynne says she sees how Alister is looking at you, how you swing your hips and all that.

[Zjarcal]

Maderek wrote...

Hawke is just another Create-A-Character.

Whether or not I like him/her depends on which Hawke.

I agree so much with this.

+50 Friendship. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Anathemic wrote...
I find other characters more interesting such as the SC2's Jim Raynor, for character development is shown (a bit cliche) in the game. And it's not even a RPG!

A bit cliche?
But I am hoping that Kerrigan will be a strong character in the expansion, with hopefully less cliche and more old Starcraft goodness.


On the sujbect of Hawke dying. I'd prefer it, or any other guarantee that Hawke will not show up again.

[Shevy]

I hope they burrow Hawke 20 meters under the ground and build something indestructible above her. Thats how much I care about her.

That said, I want to know what exactly happened to my Warden.

[Anathemic]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anathemic wrote...
I find other characters more interesting such as the SC2's Jim Raynor, for character development is shown (a bit cliche) in the game. And it's not even a RPG!

A bit cliche?
But I am hoping that Kerrigan will be a strong character in the expansion, with hopefully less cliche and more old Starcraft goodness.


On the sujbect of Hawke dying. I'd prefer it, or any other guarantee that Hawke will not show up again.

Hey man, all that matters is that there's character development is shown, for a non-RPG this a good success for SC2, even if they did cliche the story (damn you Metzen!).

But yeah I too hope Kerrigan's story is better in HotS.

[ipgd]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Again, I don't really understand how that works. That's not how I could play an RPG, at least not for the first few playthroughs.

If you asked me to describe my Wardens' personalities, I really wouldn't know where to start. They just had so little personal stake in anything that I had no reason to think about what they would think about something.

My most developed, independant Warden ended up being, again, my dwarf noble, because there was an entire section of the game where she, as a character, had personal reasons to care about what was going on. Because Orzammar tied into her backstory, I spent a lot of time thinking about her and how she would react to the politics there -- but as soon as she was back on the surface, she ceased to have any reason to care and as such I ceased to have any reason to consider her motivations more important than my desire to metagame. My other Wardens didn't even get that much.

Hawke, on the other hand, does have a reason to care about almost all of the things happening in Kirkwall, so I spent more time thinking about those reasons. Because the reasons why he cared mattered to a greater degree to other characters, I felt like I was accomplishing something relevant to the game by thinking about it.

Working out my Wardens' characterization just kind of felt like writing fanfiction.