18 réponses à ce sujet

[Thrasher91604]

I crafted some boots of striding + 6 and added a +4 AC enchantment.

When loading, or transitioning to new areas, my characters take positive energy damage equal to the hit point bonus afforded by the constitution boost of the boots. This will repeat after each transition or load until the character's HPs are reduced to zero.

Has anyone else seen this, and is there a fix?

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[kevL]

sounds like Kaedrin's PrC constitution change

the fix is to find the code, comment it out, and recompile .. i can probably help ya with that, if you can recompile ..


The same thing was happening to my Con-boosted characters - a few module transitions and was almost ded from HP loss - track down the related code in cmi_player_equip, cmi_player_unequip, cmi_pc_loaded. Approximate lines: 18 - 112, 58 - 85, 164 - 268 ( approximate ) respectively.



ps. where'd you find the +4 AC recipe? i could sure use that before the final assault ...

Modifié par kevL, 05 juin 2011 - 09:51 .

[I_Raps]

What you're describing actually is the *fix* You have Kaedrin's PRC mod installed, right? That's how he handles a different bug in the original program where equipping +CON items would just keep adding hit points.

It's a fix I don't agree with, myself. To my mind, Bear's Endurance and the like should give you bonus hit points. Bull's Strength gives bonus to carrying capacity and to AB/damage; Cat's Grace gives bonuses to armor class and skills and missile/finess AB; etc. Why is +CON nerfed?

It's not a game-breaker, though. Just rest and get the extra hit points back.... except, you're playing SOZ and the designers in their "wisdom" took away that option, didn't they. Hmmm.

The Black Draconic solution: modify the single use Stone of Alarm into the unlimited use Stone of Many Alarms.

[I_Raps]

kevL wrote...

ps. where'd you find the +4 AC recipe? i could sure use that before the final assault ...

Do you remember collecting all those Arcane Attenuators for Akila?  You should go talk to him again... I bet he's finished his research.

[Thrasher91604]

Thanks for the incredible insights, guys!

Yes, Kaedrin's PrC mod is being used.

Another thing I just noticed. The damage is only on my evil characters. My good wizard wears the boots without the bad effects. Apparently, the fix appears to apply positive damage only hurts evil characters?

I found the AC+4 recipe in the area that opens up in the NE of the Sword Coast when you pass through the Foreign Temple in Chult. THAT was a TOUGH situation in Chult!

I have zero experience modding the game, so I see two easier solutions:

(1) Edit my evil characters, to be good or neutral. Also will need to change their deities. What is the easiest way to do this?

(2) Make stone alarms infinite as I_raps suggested. Is there an existing mod I can use that won't break my game in progress?

EDIT: I found this Stone of Many Alarms mod: http://nwvault.ign.c...s.Detail&id=255

For one person, it didn't work, but it's worth a try.

Thanks, again.

[Thrasher91604]

UPDATE:

The Stone of Many Alarms appears to work. It modded the uses of the Stones in my inventory to be infinite.

[kevL]

[kevL]

FOUND IT!! tks I_Raps!

twas a long and tremendous journey: Met a Blue Dragon on the way, said hi then well, you can guess what happened. Still have to get the news back to Akila; my party would have been slaughtered if Dorin hadn't got that Word of Faith off right away. As it was only the Forge Priest resisted, even the King went blind and all the rest were stunned!!! Inshula looked like she was gonna take rest ala Quinn for the first bit, but once the Word hit and Jaryn gave her Lay on Hands it was just a matter of mopping up and collecting Loot (and letting Quinn chase the blind King around, *snigger)


ps. those Infinite Stones are pretty handy too.

[painofdungeoneternal]

It's a fix I don't agree with, myself. To my mind, Bear's Endurance and the like should give you bonus hit points. Bull's Strength gives bonus to carrying capacity and to AB/damage; Cat's Grace gives bonuses to armor class and skills and missile/finess AB; etc. Why is +CON nerfed?

Sounds like you don't understand the bug.

It's not a nerf, it's an issue where if you have a con bonus from an item, then use the con boost spell, it adds the hit points in regardless when the boost should not be happening. This can give a player infinite hit points, and that is how we first noticed it when players were running around at 5th level with 700 hit points just from moving area to area, and not simply getting a few hit points from casting endurance. This is just one description of a single issue and there are quite a few other effects in game, hopefully not too helpful to exploiters. The issue is not specific to con but affects all stats with extra spell slots popping up for example for intelligence boosting items, whenever the stat is changing and it does not change due to stacking it ends up doing the side effects, and items themselves have properties that stick when you swap items.

The kaedrin solution has some issues still, but its not a nerf, nor should using the bonus con function give bonus hit points just because you like that bug, if i want that effect i use the "bonus hit points effect" and you get bonus hit points. The current situation requires complex coding to make things work as intended, and even though some prefer how things are now, it makes it very difficult to design rules when this sort of thing is going on. If this is thought of as how it should work, well then that will be buggy too since it's only going to do it sporadically in certain situations - it would be impossible to put that in the spell description in a way end users could handle it.

No this is something that has to be fixed or you end up losing content developers, DM's and PW admins. We lost a lot of really talented people over issues like this, and kaedrins extensive work ( and skywings, 0100010, rpgplayer1, tonyk, and a dozen other folks ) are the only reason i have not given up on the game.

Fortunately this fix - while not working right here - has the correct idea as to how to fix this issue, it just needs to be less aggressive on when it does it so it's not doing so many false positives. ( vaguely seem to remember him doing an option to control this as well, so it might be something you can turn on and off via a 2da edit in cmi_options )

[I_Raps]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

It's a fix I don't agree with, myself. To my mind, Bear's Endurance and the like should give you bonus hit points. Bull's Strength gives bonus to carrying capacity and to AB/damage; Cat's Grace gives bonuses to armor class and skills and missile/finess AB; etc. Why is +CON nerfed?

Sounds like you don't understand the bug.

No, I understand it all too well.  I also understand that when I walk into the Flagon and Qara is laying there dead it's broken.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The kaedrin solution has some issues still, but its not a nerf, nor should using the bonus con function give bonus hit points just because you like that bug, if i want that effect i use the "bonus hit points effect" and you get bonus hit points...
 
...Fortunately this fix - while not working right here - has the correct idea as to how to fix this issue, it just needs to be less aggressive on when it does it so it's not doing so many false positives.

Now, this is where you don't seem to understand.  If I have +6 CON, I SHOULD HAVE 3 bonus hit points per level.  That's not a "bug I like," that's the way it's supposed to be.  As for making items with a "bonus hit points effect," those should be over and above the hit points from CON bonus (bringing in items from outside the game - are players supposed to do that?).  Since the old forum is off in the ether somewhere, it's hard to know for sure but I seem to remember Kaedrin saying getting rid of those bonus hit points was his intent - and that's a nerf and it's not "the correct idea."  Perhaps I'm just misremembering - but the current situation is so screwy it's impossible to tell what his actual intent is.  Unless, of course, he actually intends Qara to lie dead on the Flagon floor... 

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
No this is something that has to be fixed or you end up losing content developers, DM's and PW admins. We lost a lot of really talented people over issues like this, and kaedrins extensive work ( and skywings, 0100010, rpgplayer1, tonyk, and a dozen other folks ) are the only reason i have not given up on the game.

Sorry, but I'm not concerned about PWs and exploits.  I want the game that I'm actually playing to work.  And when new players come to a forum wondering why their game is broken and I have to tell them that it's an item they like and purchased/crafted/used to get an expected bonus that they have to jettison, that's not a good thing either.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

 ( vaguely seem to remember him doing an option to control this as well, so it might be something you can turn on and off via a 2da edit in cmi_options )

Oh, good.  Since you understand it and I don't, which option do I turn off?


2DA V2.0
Option Value
0 PaladinFullCaster 0
1 SneakAttackSpells 1
2 TouchofHealingUse50PercentCap 1
3 TouchofHealingUseAugmentHealing 1
4 UseAlternateTurnUndeadRules 1
5 PaladinOnlyAlternateTurnUndeadRule 1
6 AmmoStacksToCreate 1
7 TempestStackWithRanger 0
8 ElaborateParry 1
9 UseSacredFistFix 1
10 UseTwoWpnDefense 1
11 HolyWarriorCap 4
12 Stormlord24HrBuffDuration 1
13 ArcaneShapesCanCast 0
14 UnarmedPolymorphFeatFix 0
15 DaringOutlawCap 0
16 DivChampSpellcastingProgression 0
17 EldGlaiveAttackCap 2
18 EldGlaiveAllowEldMastery 0
19 EldGlaiveAllowEssence 1
20 EldGlaiveAllowCrits 1
21 EldGlaiveAllowHasteBoost 0
22 HealingHymnCap 0
23 CrossbowSniper50PercentDexCap 0
24 WintersBlastUsesPiercingCold 0
25 UseSRFix 0
26 UseDmgResFix 0
27 UseEnhancedBGPet 1
28 UseWildshapeTiers 3
29 LoadCMIOptions 1
30 FreeEmberGuard 1
31 PlanetouchedGetMartialWeaponProf 1
32 FangLineExceeds20 0
33 SpellSpecAdds1PerDie 0
34 SonicMightAffectsClapofThunder 1
35 ArcaneShapesUseWildshapeFixes 0
36 UnlimitedWildshapeUses 0
37 FrostMageArmorStacks 0
38 EnableReserveMeta 0
39 GrantSerenasCoin 1
40 RangerFullCaster 0
41 AllowWildshapeHeal 1
42 TreatHellfireBlastSeparate 0
43 AllowEldBlastToStackMaxEmpower 1
44 CapIntuitiveIfNotPureMonk 4

Modifié par I_Raps, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:38 .

[I_Raps]

I_Raps wrote...

Now, this is where you don't seem to understand.  If I have +6 CON, I SHOULD HAVE 3 bonus hit points per level.  That's not a "bug I like," that's the way it's supposed to be.  As for making items with a "bonus hit points effect," those should be over and above the hit points from CON bonus (bringing in items from outside the game - are players supposed to do that?).  Since the old forum is off in the ether somewhere, it's hard to know for sure but I seem to remember Kaedrin saying getting rid of those bonus hit points was his intent - and that's a nerf and it's not "the correct idea."  Perhaps I'm just misremembering - but the current situation is so screwy it's impossible to tell what his actual intent is.  Unless, of course, he actually intends Qara to lie dead on the Flagon floor... 

Actually, I'm not so sure we can't tell his intent.  These lines here ... in cmi_player_equip.nss ...



nConValue = (GetItemPropertyCostTableValue(iProp)/2) * nHD;
eDamage = EffectDamage(nConValue, DAMAGE_TYPE_POSITIVE, DAMAGE_POWER_NORMAL, TRUE);
DelayCommand(0.1f,ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT, eDamage, oPC));


... that looks like a nerf to me.

Modifié par I_Raps, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

( please forgive any math errors here, and replace with whatever math or correct rules for how con should work, this is all coming from my basically halfway insane brain and feeble memory. )

If you have bonus con, you don't get "bonus hit points", you get the hit points that come with the extra con. IE if your con goes from 16 to 18 and are 3rd level fighter, you should go from 30+3*3 hit points to 30+4*3, which is a 9 bonus to a 12 bonus from con, or 39 hit points to 42 hit points.

That is not bonus hit points, that is your "con bonus" which is not disputed here, a player with 18 con should have 42 hit points at 3rd level as a fighter plus any points that come from toughness, epic hit points, and the "bonus hit points" property. Your character should have 42 as his max hit points and his current hit points, not a point more or less.

The issue is if you cast the spell, or use the item, and per the rules your con remains the same ( it was 18 already for whatever reason and you get the same boost of 2, but the end result is still 18 ). Now you started with 42 hit points, but suddenly your hit points go over this, your max hit points is still 42 but your current hit points might be 54. The rules state your hit points at a given level and with a given amount of Con should be a given amount, not a "bonus" amount, which actually is wonky enough to be repeatable and give infinite hit points, but it also can go away at the worst possible time as well since it's more of a ghost than a real effect. Kaedrin is trying to take a player who had 42 hit points and if they change to 54 hit points to damage them 12 points to put them back at 42 hit points. This is really hard if you start out damaged and only have a few hit points. This is the issue this is aimed at, and not trying to do something more.

What you are looking at is broken, its not an intentional nerf, and crying "i don't want PW fixes" just really makes me think you don't understand much about PW's, the issues are the exact same in SP and PW's. This is quite hard to see if you are damaged already and this happens in a SP game, i mean if your hit points are wrong you probably are not going to start grabbing a calculator unless you end up dead, which makes the only bugs being reported the ones not in your favor. But the goal is not to follow the needs of PWs or SP games, but to make the game follow the PNP rules everyone understands and agrees to.

Kaedrin is not intending a nerf, if con raises the hit points goes up way past what the rules intend he is trying to fix it, and he is using quite an advanced understanding of the game to do it, however it's a very difficult issue to fix and he has to guess a bit to remove the "extra" hit points you get past what con should provide. I think you should refrain from reading things you don't really understand and stating what the intentions are based on a bug. Most fixes to the game have initial bugs like this, report them as facts, don't unload how you feel and start ascribing blame or ranting nonsense about PW's ruining the game, there are a lot of folks on PW's which have helped get the game as good as it is now. There is a reason Kaedrin does not frequent the forums here, and he's doing this out of his own time freely.

Yes people dying should not be happening, but kaedrin also has fixes to prevent that as well which came with the same code, this is just a bug and should be treated as such and not something "bigger".

Bonus hit points coming from bears endurance or rage is a good idea, but it also should not stack to allow infinite hit points either.

I'd have to look at the code involved, this is an issue i have my "own" fixes for, and i have not had a chance to test in game what kaedrin did yet. ( i implement all his code in my codebase, but often i rework it as needed and use my solution instead of his if i feel mine works better. ) Don't see it in cmi_options you listed but that could be more because of the version i am looking at is different, or some other issue, like i said i dimly remembered it being optional.

Note this issue is for some reason alignment based from the notes above which might be why kaedrin missed it to begin with, he prefers playing paladins and i don't see why alignment would affect things.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 15 juillet 2011 - 06:38 .

[kevL]

I think the issue is more important to fix for MP than SP. i believe the person-person competitive aspects of MP (inc PWs) promotes 'bragging rights' & exploits. compete = cheat (to an extent)

more personally, i Don't believe in caps: I wish ability bonuses were cumulative, but that ain't gonna happen. All PnP means to me anymore is Pause n Puppet ..

empirically, it's good to have the d20 rules as a basis; logically, to assume they're balanced for NwN2 is to assume they can be implemented - ain't gonna happen. Balance your own game or PW - rule nought, right?


As i noted above, I've simply commented out the code & recompiled and it's working fine for me (SP). Kaedrin's efforts have far too much value to throw the proverbial baby out with the water. I'm sure mr. I_Raps would agree


my feeling is intuitively sure that K's code, without switching myself into Coding Mode (only one cup of coffee so far today), can be tweaked with additional checks and subroutines to correct the issue I_Raps has duely noted. And thanks Pain, i think you've answered questions I've secretly pondered as to HitPoint discrepancies!



ps. i doubt it has anything to do with alignment; the OP might have been experiencing a coincidence, where his evil characters had Bear's Endurance w/ +Con item .... post.

[I_Raps]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I think you should refrain from reading things you don't really understand and stating what the intentions are based on a bug. Most fixes to the game have initial bugs like this, report them as facts, don't unload how you feel and start ascribing blame or ranting nonsense about PW's ruining the game, there are a lot of folks on PW's which have helped get the game as good as it is now. There is a reason Kaedrin does not frequent the forums here, and he's doing this out of his own time freely.

I think you should refrain from saying anything at all about me and what I understand since you obviously don't know anything at all about me.  YOU are the one who bumped this MONTH OLD thread that had been resolved just to **** about an OPINION I voiced - which I apparently don't have a right to say.  As for Kaedrin, I think his feelings are far less tender than you seem to think.  He can live with criticism... and even bug reports, dare I say (he's actually fixed a couple I've reported).

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

( please forgive any math errors here, and replace with whatever math or correct rules for how con should work, this is all coming from my basically halfway insane brain and feeble memory. )

If you have bonus con, you don't get "bonus hit points", you get the hit points that come with the extra con. IE if your con goes from 16 to 18 and are 3rd level fighter, you should go from 30+3*3 hit points to 30+4*3, which is a 9 bonus to a 12 bonus from con, or 39 hit points to 42 hit points.

That is not bonus hit points, that is your "con bonus" which is not disputed here, a player with 18 con should have 42 hit points at 3rd level as a fighter plus any points that come from toughness, epic hit points, and the "bonus hit points" property. Your character should have 42 as his max hit points and his current hit points, not a point more or less.

No math necessary here, just a little elementary scripting.  Those 3 hit points are EXACTLY what those lines I quoted above TAKE AWAY when you equip the item.  Your OWN words "not a point more OR LESS" (my emphasis) demonstrate that you don't understand.  YOU'RE GETTING LESS.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I have some in depth understanding of this issue and capability to fix the problem, and as such have every right to post in this thread, and am not just bumping dead threads to "attack" you, nor am i making ANY assumptions about you beyond what i read here. My sole aim is your "opinion" that the excerpt of code posted defines some intent to nerf.

I also have worked extensively on this specific issue, solving it in many ways on my PW a long time ago which i shared with Kaedrin, and i also review every new version of code he puts out and implement any changes i agree with in my codebase, and have reported numerous bugs over the years which are in the official game, kaedrins code and numerous other projects. I have been working on getting this specific issue resolved for a very long time in a proper manner, both via script and making others aware of it, and test cases to recreate it.

I happen to have code which does almost the exact same thing as him which works correctly on a smaller scale, and thus when i read the exact same excerpt of code i can understand what his intention was and "why" it was written since i've done it myself. My comment on what you understand is based on your conclusions posted here, i just happen to have considerable background on the subject, which lets me read the same code and come to a contrary conclusion.

This is not a "MP" issue where PW's are lobbying for changes, which is irrelevant, nor is it a nerf, or some "intention" of his to remove any hit points given by the rules, all of which go beyond criticism, this is just an area where the engine is running off and doing something it shouldn't be which needs to be corrected if possible, and done in a way which is not causing it to actually start damaging the players legally obtained hit points.

To me, and this is my opinion, this focus on intention or if things are a nerf goes beyond the line and it moves into the type of criticism that makes it stop being fun anymore to do things. Assuming others have "Thick Skin", well that should not be a requirement, we need all the hobbyist devs we can get no matter how thick their skin, eventually the comments get to them which hurts the community when they engage less. Report the facts and the facts alone when you find a bug, which most devs are very happy when they get support like this. Leave out how you feel about it ruining your game, your build, if things are a nerf, or if the dev is taking the sides in some fictional SP/MP/Roleplay/action war or whatever. I have seen far too many developers state they avoid the forums completely due to things like this.

No math necessary here, just a little elementary scripting. Those 3 hit points are EXACTLY what those lines I quoted above TAKE AWAY when you equip the item. Your OWN words "not a point more OR LESS" (my emphasis) demonstrate that you don't understand. YOU'RE GETTING LESS.

In my testing using a vanilla game, when you have 18 con, and use a spell which does the con bonus effect but the con does not change, the hit points change from 42 to 45, max hit points are still 42. This is why it would remove 3 to get it back to 42 and there should not be any bonus hit points. The math is very necessary to describe this issue.

[I_Raps]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I have some in depth understanding of this issue and capability to fix the problem, and as such have every right to post in this thread, and am not just bumping dead threads to "attack" you, nor am i making ANY assumptions about you beyond what i read here. My sole aim is your "opinion" that the excerpt of code posted defines some intent to nerf.

And yet you've offered NOTHING of any substance here.  All you've done is attack my "understanding."  And been wrong repeatedly on the facts ("so it might be something you can turn on and off via a 2da edit in cmi_options" - WRONG;  "That is not bonus hit points, that is your "con bonus" which is not disputed here" - WRONG), just as if you don't know what you're talking about.

+Con Fix - Equipping/Unequipping items will now handle all cases of +Con items. You cannot go above or below your current hit points when equipping +Con gear. For example, a 10 HD fighter equipping a +4 item will be at 100/120 hit points. Unequipping the +4 item (assuming no other +Con items are equipped) will heal you back to 100/100. Multiple +Con items handle the interaction correctly. No more exploits and no more excessive damage/healing unless you change gear too fast for the code to keep up (.3s delay).

Kaedrin's OWN words.  http://nwvault.ign.c...comment_page=18

That's his target - 100/120.  And it's his CHOICE.  He could have just as easily given back the proper number of Hit Points.  It's quite clear - from his own words - that he doesn't think equipping a +Con item should give you immediate extra hit points. This is wrong.  This is not the way it's supposed to work.  And you know it - you said as much.  Although as I fully expected, you backtracked from your own clear and definitive statement - what was it again?  "Not a point more or less."  Oh, yeah.  Good show.  As for Kaedrin's motivation, again, his own words:

limaxophobiac on Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:56 am

Well, after some looking around on the net I found out it was because of 'fix' to a previous problem with con bonus items*. To be honest I found the fix more troublesome than the original problem, which is a minor bug I can just choose not to abuse. 

Kaedrin on Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:05 am

Given how many players abused the exploit, it's the cost of being human.

http://nwn2customcon...stitution-items


And, contrary to what I said way back when, this is a game-breaker.  I hadn't found Qara lying dead on the Flagon floor yet.  There are any number of cutscenes - dozens, probably - that will break if this happens (just ask Sevann if you don't believe me).  And the players will be screwed, but  I guess that's just the "cost of being human."


p.s.  Speaking of nerfs and how Kaedrin doesn't use them - whatever happened to my Ring of the Ram?
p.p.s. *  I wonder where he might have found that helpful information.

Modifié par I_Raps, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:11 .

[I_Raps]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

To me, and this is my opinion, this focus on intention or if things are a nerf goes beyond the line and it moves into the type of criticism that makes it stop being fun anymore to do things. Assuming others have "Thick Skin", well that should not be a requirement, we need all the hobbyist devs we can get no matter how thick their skin, eventually the comments get to them which hurts the community when they engage less.

You think THIS:

I_Raps wrote...

It's a fix I don't agree with, myself. To my mind, Bear's Endurance and the like should give you bonus hit points. Bull's Strength gives bonus to carrying capacity and to AB/damage; Cat's Grace gives bonuses to armor class and skills and missile/finess AB; etc. Why is +CON nerfed?

... is going to make Kaedrin take his ball and go home?    (For some reason I have the urge to say, "What is it this time?  Did I eat your favorite sheep?)

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Report the facts and the facts alone when you find a bug, which most devs are very happy when they get support like this. Leave out how you feel about it ruining your game, your build, if things are a nerf, or if the dev is taking the sides in some fictional SP/MP/Roleplay/action war or whatever.

No.  I'll express my opinion of other people's submissions any damned time I care to.  You can call that "the cost of publishing."

Modifié par I_Raps, 16 juillet 2011 - 07:15 .

[elugreymantle]

kevL wrote...

sounds like Kaedrin's PrC constitution change

the fix is to find the code, comment it out, and recompile .. i can probably help ya with that, if you can recompile ..

The same thing was happening to my Con-boosted characters - a few module transitions and was almost ded from HP loss - track down the related code in cmi_player_equip, cmi_player_unequip, cmi_pc_loaded. Approximate lines: 18 - 112, 58 - 85, 164 - 268 ( approximate ) respectively..

Thanks kevL, I play mostly SP modules using Keadrin's PrC packs among many other mods/overrides. I was having the positive energy self-inflicted damage issue with a pair of +2 Con boots on a Rogue. So following your guide I loaded each of these 3 .NSS scripts in the toolset and edited out the suggested code snippets and recompiled. Loaded my game and my rogue with the +2 con boots was no longer getting hit with cumulative positive energy damage on area transitions and item unequips/reequips. Upcoming cmi_options switch in 1.42:

• New cmi_option to allow SP users to turn off the Con fix code.    

[kevL]

hehe,

aside: i came across another snip of code in a fourth file somewhere, that Kaedrin's ConFix also uses, but since that bit wasn't directly affecting things .. i just left it washing in the seas


looking forward to 1.42 w/ trepidation.