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What's up with Saarebas? (Shepherding Wolves spoilers.)


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#1
Firky

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I just minorly necroed my thread to ask this, on next page.

So, Gaxkang the Unbound was called "Unbound" why? Does anyone know? The
only other time I've heard the word "unbound" used is when our friend,
the suicidal Saarebas, said "I am ... unbound. Odd. Wrong."



Original post.

So, one of my favourite moments in the game was at the end of the Shepherding Wolves quest. I found it really evocative. But, I want to know more about the Saarebas.

1. Was the control rod destroyed before the Saarebas could speak? Or just disabled? Can it be reenabled?
2. Why stitch his mouth if it is the control rod was preventing him from speaking anyway?
3. If the Saarebas presumably spent so little of his life able to speak, why was he then able to do so fairly well? (Like co-ordinate his mouth, tongue etc to produce sounds.)
4. During the quest, how was the Saarebas controlled? No-one had a control rod, did he have free will - within Qun limits? There was a time when he appeared to protect Hawke with fire but then didn't fight in the ensuing battle.
5. What is a kaaratam and why is he corrupted without it?
6. What do you reckon would happen if a demon got hold of him? 
7. How do you reckon his upbringing would differ from, like a soldier, etc?
8. Why did he follow Hawke? 

I suspect the answers to some of my questions might be unknown, but some of you guys are major lore buffs. Any insight or speculation? (I just find him fascinating.)

Modifié par Firky, 17 juin 2011 - 10:25 .


#2
Porenferser

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Firky wrote...

So, one of my favourite moments in the game was at the end of the Shepherding Wolves quest. I found it really evocative. But, I want to know more about the Saarebas.

1. Was the control rod destroyed before the Saarebas could speak? Or just disabled? Can it be reenabled?
2. Why stitch his mouth if it is the control rod was preventing him from speaking anyway?
3. If the Saarebas presumably spent so little of his life able to speak, why was he then able to do so fairly well? (Like co-ordinate his mouth, tongue etc to produce sounds.)
4. During the quest, how was the Saarebas controlled? No-one had a control rod, did he have free will - within Qun limits? There was a time when he appeared to protect Hawke with fire but then didn't fight in the ensuing battle.
5. What is a kaaratam and why is he corrupted without it?
6. What do you reckon would happen if a demon got hold of him? 
7. How do you reckon his upbringing would differ from, like a soldier, etc?
8. Why did he follow Hawke? 

I suspect the answers to some of my questions might be unknown, but some of you guys are major lore buffs. Any insight or speculation? (I just find him fascinating.)


1. It looks like it exploeded. Maybe because Hawke didn't know how to use it properly?
2. Good question. Maybe just because it looks cooler.
3. Well, he may have watched the others and learned it by imagining it.
4. I think he just didn't fought gameplay-wise, maybe because it was difficult to script. Story-wise, I think he fought. And I assume he just followed because he knew he would be lead to his kind.
5. It is his group. No qunari-mage is allowed to walk without his *guards*
6. He would have become an abomination I guess, like evry normal mage. Just a bit powerfuller maybe.
7. As a soldier, he wouldn't have followed Hawke or Petrice, he would have fought.
8. Because he wanted to be lead to his kind.

Modifié par Porenferser, 05 juin 2011 - 10:53 .


#3
Firky

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Thanks for reply. Sorry, I think I spelled "karataam" incorrectly. Are they "guards" or mages? Or both, I wonder.

Mmm. But if he was following Hawke to get to his kind, and there was no control rod present, why couldn't he speak then? He could suddenly speak when in the presence of an exploding control rod? Or was that "his" control rod? I don't think it was - because he told the Aarvarad that he might be corrupted due to losing his karataam. (I'm a bit hung up on the speech thing, I know.)

#4
Porenferser

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Guards, but maybe with some more saarebas.
But in-game, Saarebas aren't in groups very often, likely because they would be too dangerous then.

Yep, the problem with the speech thing is that it isn't really explained.
Or maybe it's not very logical at all?
Maybe David knows the answer, hopefully he'll look into this.

#5
Firky

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That's true. I was assuming that karataam meant a group of mages, but it the game you only see one at a time (I think) so it might mean wider unit.

It's just that, if exploding-rod-freed Saarebas has speech capability, that implies to me that the Qunari might not recognise mages until they are - a number of years old and have learned to speak well - or that Saarebas are periodically "allowed" to speak.

He also appeared to be answering Hawke's questions with grunts. Did he know he couldn't be understood? Why did he bother grunting at all?

#6
frustratemyself

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Just because Saarebas doesn't speak doesn't mean he can't. If a mages gifts manifest in childhood say from age 5 or 6 then you are able to talk by then. You also learn a certain amount from observing people around you.
With mages considered so dangerous by Qunari the Saarebas would likely consider himself dangerous. The silence would probably also be part of his role.

#7
Porenferser

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He also appeared to be answering Hawke's questions with grunts. Did he know he couldn't be understood? Why did he bother grunting at all?

Maybe he wanted to tell him *You clearly can hear that I can't speak. Why do you bother me?:bandit:*

:lol:
But then again, he could've just remain silent.
Here again, I think it was just meant to be 'cool':P

#8
Firky

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^ Haha, yeah, maybe.

Why would silence be part of a Saarebas' role? Spellcasting doesn't require speech. Maybe from preventing knowledge of blood magic being spread? Do they use blood magic?

I dunno. At the end of the quest he seemed to be struggling to speak, so I guess that could be consistent with learning to speak until the age of ...... not sure.

#9
Porenferser

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I don't think they are allowed to use blood magic.
They are not even allowed to study.

#10
Patchwork

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When I handed him back to the guards Saarabas seemed to ask for permission to speak. Avaarad waved, twisted...did something to the wand and Saarabas was able to speak to me (condemning me to death, thanks pal).

So perhaps the rod is part of an enchantment which prevents speach and the sewn lips are symbolic?

#11
dragonflight288

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There's an inconsistency between Origins and DA2. Sten says that the Kerataam cut out the tongues of mages. That's why I thought he couldn't speak, yet he does. How? He shouldn't have a tongue in the Qunari culture.

#12
Porenferser

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I think the 'cut tongues off' thing may have been meant more symbolic then literally.

#13
Firky

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@Ser Bard Actually, that's a good point. I didn't hand him back, but I did see that on a youtube playthrough.

#14
Icy Magebane

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Porenferser wrote...

I think the 'cut tongues off' thing may have been meant more symbolic then literally.

I don't think so... Sten really emphasised that point on more than one occasion.  I think he would have mentioned it if he was speaking figuratively.  Given the number of alterations to the lore from DA:O to DA2, I don't see why this isn't just another example of that.  They probably figured the quest would be better if "Ketojan" could speak at some point, so they took some liberties...

#15
Firky

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^ I always took the tongue cutting out thing as truth, when playing Origins, but then, when Saarebas could speak, I thought it might indicate that Sten's military unit and upbringing had nothing to do with the Saarebas so he didn't know much about them.

I dunno. The tongue line goes, "Our mages are controlled to do less harm than yours. They have their tongues cut out, and are kept in pens."

Then he calls them "beasts in the shape of men" a few times (which makes me think they shouldn't be able to talk.) The he says this, "I misspoke. They are not beasts. Beasts learn, eventually." What does that mean?

And this, "I know nothing of mages themselves. Only their actions."

I dunno. Sounds like he might be a little unclear, overall.

#16
Patchwork

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As a solider Sten might have only interacted with mages on the battlefield where they are tightly controlled. I doubt they would have been allowed to speak so perhaps the common thought is that Saarabas tongues are cut out when in truth their voices are magically bound.

#17
Firky

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^ Sounds possible.

You know what else is funny? I've been looking at the choice which lets you give him back. The Arvaarad asks him a question while still bound and he growls and the Arvaarad goes, "You are certain?" He growls again and the Arvaarad says "OK then," Saarebas says thanks to Hawke and Arvaarad kills him. So Arvaarad can understand the growls.

After that, the Arvaarad says, "An uncollared Saarebas has spoken to you. There is no way to know what demon may have ridden his words" so maybe that's why they prevent them from speaking; they believe demons can be passed through speech. I guess him grunting at you isn't a problem, but speaking "uncollared" is; like, with words.

What if the Saarebas had spoken words to the Arvaarad? Would the Arvaarad have fallen on his own sword? He's not a mage, but neither was Hawke in this playthrough. And non-mages can be possessed by demons anyway, right? Why did Saarebas thank Hawke if he knew "a demon might ride on his words" and Hawke would be screwed? He also spoke to Hawke in the other ending but didn't fry him too. I think I'm missing something.

Gee, I love the Saarebas, and the qunari in general.

#18
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Then he calls them "beasts in the shape of men" a few times (which makes me think they shouldn't be able to talk.) The he says this, "I misspoke. They are not beasts. Beasts learn, eventually." What does that mean?


I suspect the 'Beasts learn' comment is in reference to spellcasting. Aveline and Bethany have a conversation once where Avs says "I can put down my sword." to which Bethany replies, referring to her magic, "Believe me, I've tried."

So maybe Sten's remark is that mages never 'learn' to stop using magic.

*will have to think about the OP questions* :)

#19
Patchwork

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Firky wrote...


What if the Saarebas had spoken words to the Arvaarad? Would the Arvaarad have fallen on his own sword? He's not a mage, but neither was Hawke in this playthrough. And non-mages can be possessed by demons anyway, right? Why did Saarebas thank Hawke if he knew "a demon might ride on his words" and Hawke would be screwed? He also spoke to Hawke in the other ending but didn't fry him too. I think I'm missing something.

Gee, I love the Saarebas, and the qunari in general.


Oh the fun of trying to make sense of DA2.;)

The Qun demanded Saarabas die, it's either by Arvaarad hand or he kills himself.

Perhaps a Qunari mage and handler have an almost symbiotic relationship. The magic which binds the mage's voice also ties a Saarabas and Arvaarad together. A Arvaarad always understands their collared Saarabas's meaning even though there are no words. Cullen says in Act 1 that Templars were once greatly respected because they protected people against dark magic (or something like that) maybe that still holds true in Qunari culture. Arvaarads are both respected and feared because of their deep ties to the Saarabas. They protect people from mages and the mages from people.

However worthy the Arishok and Saarabas deem you to be you're still bas. Would Saarabas care if he gave you demon cooties or condemned you to death by speaking to you? You are indirectly responsible for the circumstances which call for his death.


-The party didn't need another mage but I would have loved to find out more about Qunari cultured by recruiting a freed Saarabas.

#20
AngryFrozenWater

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Then he calls them "beasts in the shape of men" a few times (which makes me think they shouldn't be able to talk.) The he says this, "I misspoke. They are not beasts. Beasts learn, eventually." What does that mean?

I suspect the 'Beasts learn' comment is in reference to spellcasting. Aveline and Bethany have a conversation once where Avs says "I can put down my sword." to which Bethany replies, referring to her magic, "Believe me, I've tried."

So maybe Sten's remark is that mages never 'learn' to stop using magic.

*will have to think about the OP questions* :)

I've seen this raised before. This is my take on it... Magic is part of the mage and thus cannot be separated from that mage. That explains Bethany's statement. A warrior can be separated from his or her sword and thus not use it. I feel that Aveline is not honest about her statement, though. She can be separated from her sword, but it is likely she won't do that voluntarily. What's more, if a warrior has a sword he or she will use it when required, just as a mage will use magic when required. Wynne and Ferelden's First Enchanter are examples of mages who are in full control. It's likely that their training helped them with that. Often people will bring up that magic is more dangerous, but that has little to do with the basic principle described.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 juin 2011 - 11:22 .


#21
Firky

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@Ser Bard Me too. And there was a Tal'Vashoth who turned up later in the Hanged Man too.

Mmm. If some kind of symbiotic relationship were true, I wonder how it would work. Just that they know each other well/can interpret body language, etc, or would be it magically/anti-magically based etc. I just looked at the Templar abilities for DAII and they sort of seem a bit similar to what the Arvaarad was doing with the "leash" actually. Sort of - well, "silence" blocks enemies from using spells, which is interesting.

(I know, I have lots of questions - with the world in general, too. Haha.)

@SoL. That's quite a cool interpretation.

Modifié par Firky, 06 juin 2011 - 11:21 .


#22
Netem

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1. It looks and sounds as if the control rod was simply deactivated, both when Arvaarad and Hawke use it. My guess is the control rod can easily be reenabled; it would be a very ineffective tool otherwise.

2. I've been wondering about this, too. I mean, an Arvaarad would have to remove the stitches every time he would feed his Saarebas. Someone here said it's probably symbolic, and I'll have to go with that, too.

3. More importantly, how could he speak the common tongue? Apparently, very few Qunari are able to, but this Saarebas, who no doubt hasn't had that many opportunities to practice, seems to handle the language just fine. I would say that Qunari mages, for the most part, are allowed to speak (unless they start dealing with demons), but then the rest of the conversation comes to mind, along with Sten's insistence that mages have their tongues cut out.
The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that Ketojan learned how to speak in the Fade, as there are no physical restrictions there, and that the knowledge carried over to the physical world.

4. Petrice says that Ketojan followed every direction given, and Arvaarad later confirms that Saarebas are only allowed one purpose -- to be led.
If you bring Fenris, he will point out several times that being a slave twists one's perception, and that Saarebas might not even know himself why he obeys.
Additionally, Mary Kirby or David Gaider wrote in a q&a that the Saarebas are like well-trained attack dogs. Ketojan's behavior (following without question, protecting his handler etc.) seems in line with that description.

5. A karataam is a group of Qunari mages and their handlers, i.e. several Sareebas + their Arvaarad.
My guess is that an Arvaarad is a fail safe -- by watching his Saarebas constantly, he can make sure that he is not corrupted, or if he is, end it quickly. So the fact that Ketojan has been running around without an Arvaarad makes it impossible to know whether or not he has actually become corrupted. I see it as a preemptive strike of sorts.

6. Judging from the little gift Hawke receives, a demon already has. Which means that Arvaarad was right. Anyway, I suppose Ketojan would become an abomination, just like an elf or human.

7. All Qunari are given their basic education by the Tamassran, regardless of whether they are to be soldiers, farmers, artisans etc. I suspect the manner of  Ketojan's upbringing would be dependent on how early he was revealed to be a mage.
When Ketojan speaks to Hawke, he seems knowledgeable about the Qun, so one could assume that he has read it, or had it read to him. Kirby or Gaider has stated that Saarebas are considered an extension of their Arvaarad, a weapon, and as such I imagined that they are only taught what they need to know to serve as a good tool. Like total obedience.

8. Because everyone follows Hawke.
Though Ketojan followed Petrice as well, so it's not really that strange -- Hawke is more honest, powerful and charismatic than Petrice, regardless of how you play him/her, and Ketojan tells him/her that s/he is worthy of following, a Basvaarad (a non-Qunari handler). To me, it seems like Ketojan is trying to stay true to his purpose, to be led, just as devotedly as any other Qunari, and in the absence of an Arvaarad, he chooses the best alternative available.

Modifié par Netem, 06 juin 2011 - 01:20 .


#23
Shadow of Light Dragon

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1. Was the control rod destroyed before the Saarebas could speak? Or just disabled? Can it be reenabled?


Don't know this one :)

2. Why stitch his mouth if it is the control rod was preventing him from speaking anyway?


It may just be a visible mark of what a saarebas is, since I agree there's little practical purpose to it (he could speak even when his mouth was sewn shut and the rod disabled, so...eh?).

3. If the Saarebas presumably spent so little of his life able to speak, why was he then able to do so fairly well? (Like co-ordinate his mouth, tongue etc to produce sounds.)


I'm coming from the DA:O claim/assumption that saarebas could *not* speak, and were mutilated specifically for this purpose. So I don't know. :/ I suppose if they are permitted to retain the ability to speak and are just *prevented* by those rods, it depends when their magical abilities show themselves. I don't know how long it takes to forget how to talk if you're struck mute for several years of your life...least of all if you're of the kossith species.

4. During the quest, how was the Saarebas controlled? No-one had a control rod, did he have free will - within Qun limits? There was a time when he appeared to protect Hawke with fire but then didn't fight in the ensuing battle.


I believe he had free will and was not being controlled. He chose to follow and protect and obey Hawke.

5. What is a kaaratam and why is he corrupted without it?


Karataam: A group of Qunari mages and their handlers.


According to the wiki. I think a mage is corrupted if he is separated from his handler, like you might fear an animal picking up a disease if it escaped into the wild. An extreme view perhaps, but the qunari are good at extreme views.

6. What do you reckon would happen if a demon got hold of him?


No different to any other mage, I assume. Abomination, the strength of which is dependent on the mage.

7. How do you reckon his upbringing would differ from, like a soldier, etc?


Once he is discovered to be a mage, I'm guessing it goes downhill. A soldier would be trained in weaponry and tactics and physical endurance, the mage? I'm unsure. On one hand the qunari subjugate their mages, but on the other they want to harness the powers of the saarebas to combat other mages (read: the war with Tevinter). So I am not entirely sure how their mages become powerful, learning spells etc. Circle mages have to study for years to advance in their arts. Do saarebas get taught, or are they largely wild?

8. Why did he follow Hawke?


He wanted to return to his people, the Qun demanded he return to a handler, so he chose to follow.

Those are my guesses. :)

#24
Netem

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If all lore is assumed to be right and applied at the same time, Saarebas would first have their tongues cut out, then their mouths stitched shut and finally the magical choke activated. Plus the golden masks and the red leashes (which are not featured in-game.)

I think it's more reasonable to assume that different methods of containment are used in different situations: perhaps only blood mages have their tongues cut out. Perhaps the magical collar is the newest invention within mage handling, straight from Par Vollen, substituting both the actual leash and the cut-out-the-tongue-process -- two-in-one. Or perhaps the control rods are simply too expensive/materials too rare for every mage to have one, and the mages of the Arishok's army are prioritized.

As for the grunts, I played through just now and realized that every single grunt could be interpreted as a "yes". E.g. when Hakwe says, "You need to be led out of the city?", "Be ready, Ketojan.", "Did I hit the right phrase or something?", "Did you react because your lead was threatened?" etc etc.
I guess it's likely that Saarebas are trained to be responsive to their Arvaarad, since they logically can't choose when to eat, sleep, go to the bathroom etc. A grunt for yes, silence for no.


Firky wrote...

You know what else is funny? I've been looking at the choice which lets you give him back. The Arvaarad asks him a question while still bound and he growls and the Arvaarad goes, "You are certain?" He growls again and the Arvaarad says "OK then," Saarebas says thanks to Hawke and Arvaarad kills him. So Arvaarad can understand the growls.

[...]

What if the Saarebas had spoken words to the Arvaarad? Would the Arvaarad have fallen on his own sword? He's not a mage, but neither was Hawke in this playthrough. And non-mages can be possessed by demons anyway, right? Why did Saarebas thank Hawke if he knew "a demon might ride on his words" and Hawke would be screwed? He also spoke to Hawke in the other ending but didn't fry him too. I think I'm missing something.



What Arvaarad says is, "Nehraa aqun ebra kata Arvaarad."
Nehraa = to do something for something/someone, e.g. Sten's battlecries "Nehraa Beresaad!" and "Nehraa Kadan!"
Aqun = unknown. "[...] aban aqun." is translated to "[...] but the sea is changeless." Could also be a reference to the actual Qun?
Ebra = given the context, this could be a conjugation of "ebost", which means "to return."
Kata = death, or die, e.g. Sten's battle cries again: "Katara, bas!"

To me, it sounds as if Arvaarad is offering to return Saarebas to the Qun by killing him personally. It's a yes or no question, and if a grunt is indeed the equivalence of a yes, then there doesn't really need to be a deeper understanding between handler and mage.

Anyway, I also wanted to answer the second part I highlighted of your post, because the situation is hilarious. I'm hoping that Ketojan weren't messing with Hawke, but actually knew that Hawke would be executed regardless (for simply being in Ketojan's presence, or because Arvaarad thought Hawke was responsible for the trail) and so decided to express his gratitude as a form of acknowledgment.

I'm under the impression Ketojan didn't try to burn Hawke too because it wasn't part of Ketojan's role.

As for Arvaarad, I can only assume that he has received special training, becoming less likely to succumb to a demon, or even possessing templar-like abilities. I.e. an Arvaarad can tell when someone is being corrupted, and can thus stand to be addressed by an uncollared Saarebas. Otherwise it doesn't make sense -- every time a mage child is discovered, everyone around it would have to die.

And now I'm thinking about the Arishok and a mage Hawke.

#25
Firky

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Mmmm. You guys are raising some really interesting points. Thanks.

I guess a system of yes/no grunt/silence would make complete sense.

I do know that if you reveal yourself or Anders to be a mage when talking to Arvaarad, he attacks. I'd tend to forgive the Arishok not recognising Hawke as a mage, if that is in fact the case, like townie Templars because it's not that kind of reactive game - and its a plot thing too? (Hell, Viconia in BG 2 was a drow and that only had implications here and there - reputation, Keldorn etc.) But, the qunari do seem to take their mages very seriously. I wonder what Arishok thinks of the other mages in Kirkwall. I wonder if they can control human mages with "leashes."

So many questions.

I still think the idea of a demon travelling on his words is fascinating. (But the idea that Hawke would be already "corrupted" with or without Saarebas speaking to him does make more sense.)