51 réponses à ce sujet

[Eveangaline]

For the stitches, it could be that's how they did it before the rods were developed. And now it's still done out of symbolism or something. Or heck, maybe the rods are an extremely new invention, only a few years old, and the mage still had his lips sewn from before.

And he could have spent like, 12 years being able to speak and learn before his magic showed up. I think they've said Anders was 12 when his first showed up.

So that's more than long enough to learn how to speak properly, and he's stil around people that speak properly all the time.

Modifié par Eveangaline, 07 juin 2011 - 07:13 .

[Firky]

^ That's an interesting idea about the development of technology. And the lips certainly could be ceremonial, I agree with that. After seeing that the templar ability "silence" it occurred to me that maybe the rod wasn't actually what was giving commands, but it did work when Hawke destroyed (?) it. So I guess it is.

Maybe with humans/elves, they are discovered when they are discovered. I had pictured qunari having their roles figured out much earlier but the wiki does say this, "The Tamassrans raise all the children, give them their general education, and evaluate them. Qunari are officially assigned their roles at twelve years of age." I tend to agree that that might help explain why he could speak when "unleashed." Would a qunari mage be dangerous before the age of 12?

Also - why are Ketojan/Saarebas' horns cut off?

[Netem]

I have some vague memory of reading that cutting off your horns is to show that you're dangerous. The Tal-Vashoth do it as well, though officially the reason for them doing so is unknown.

I'll see if I can find the link, cuz I'm really not sure about that one.

Love all your questions, btw, really gets me thinking about the Qunari! 

 EDIT
I should check my facts; couldn't find anything on Saarebas. Some of the concept art actually shows them with horns, so if I were to speculate, maybe Ketojan lost them in battle. What about the other Saarebas in the game? Do all of them have their horns sawed off?

Modifié par Netem, 07 juin 2011 - 03:48 .

[Firky]

^ I'm finding them really fascinating, at the moment. Thanks for discussing it with me. Lonely speculation is a lot less fruitful than communal speculation.

You know what would be cool? If there were a whole bunch of human qunari tucked away somewhere, with human saarebases and stuff. And humans with the paint and the full on qunari attitude. We saw qunari elven converts in DAII, so there might be a couple of human/elven generations of qunari in there. It might muck up their breeding program, though.

Modifié par Firky, 07 juin 2011 - 10:43 .

[Netem]

In Seheron, we know for sure that there are elves and humans, as Sten discusses their placement within the Qun with Zevran.

But outside of Seheron and Par Vollen? It's not unlikely, considering the qunari had conquered quite a bit of Thedas before the Exalted Marches. While the Chantry (presumably) killed off most converted villages during their Marches, there is one settlement in Rivain, Kont-aar, which has human (and probably elven) Qunari. Not much is known about that, though, but in regards to the breeding program, I guess the Qunari simply set up different programs depending on race -- I think it's unlikely that they interbreed elves, humans and kossith.

I'm very curious about how much Kont-aar communicate with Seheron and Par Vollen, though. Since there's only one Arishok, one Arigena and one Ariqun, they'd have to keep in touch, right? And what about the Tamassran? Do each settlement have their own, or is there a central congregation of Tamassran that take care of all Qunari, regardless of where they are born?

EDIT
I keep trying to cut down my posts, but alas...

Furthermore, would it make sense to send all Saarebas, human or otherwise, to the military? To me, it seems as if the Qunari mainly use their Saarebas in combat. After all, Saarebas need an Arvaarad, and Arvaarad is a military unit. The Arvaarad in Shepherding Wolves specifically says that his role (apart from taking care of Saarebas) is to hunt Tal-Vashoth and "bas who have not yet been enlightened."

My guess is that all mages who are born Qunari would probably be assigned an Arvaarad and brought into the military, so even if there are more settlements like Kont-aar, they might not have any mages, unless they also have a military structure of their own.

Modifié par Netem, 07 juin 2011 - 04:13 .

[Eveangaline]

Firky wrote...

^ That's an interesting idea about the development of technology. And the lips certainly could be ceremonial, I agree with that. After seeing that the templar ability "silence" it occurred to me that maybe the rod wasn't actually what was giving commands, but it did work when Hawke destroyed (?) it. So I guess it is.

Maybe with humans/elves, they are discovered when they are discovered. I had pictured qunari having their roles figured out much earlier but the wiki does say this, "The Tamassrans raise all the children, give them their general education, and evaluate them. Qunari are officially assigned their roles at twelve years of age." I tend to agree that that might help explain why he could speak when "unleashed." Would a qunari mage be dangerous before the age of 12?

Also - why are Ketojan/Saarebas' horns cut off?

I think they're discovered when they first use magic, which can happen as late as 12 if Anders is any indication. I don't know if qunari might have some method of finding out who has magical ability before they ever even are able to use it, but it could be possible. I assume that a qunari is raised normally (for qunari), but the first time they use magic and they realize they're a mage, they're saarabas and whatever role the person raising them may have had in mind, it's all thrown out the window and they're used as  a mage.

As for the horns cut off- I don't know. The info you can read about saarabas seem to indicate they still think of them as qunari, just ones unfortunately burdoned by the risk of demonic posession. But how they act seems way more paranoid and odd about it, maybe they really do think of them as lesser beings.

[Firky]

Ugh. Saarebas. In the bit where he fries that guy with fire, it seems to suggest that Hawke happens upon a keyword that calms him down. I've replayed that over and over, but I can't figure out what it is.

PS. Also, what is the difference between a karashok and a karasaad?

Modifié par Firky, 10 juin 2011 - 12:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is merely ranks between soldiers. Karasaad being an unspecified rank, and Karashok being equivalent to a private.

[Firky]

Apologies for necroing my thread, but Saarebas-obsessed-me is back.

So, Gaxkang the Unbound was called "Unbound" why? Does anyone know? The only other time I've heard the word "unbound" used is when our friend, the suicidal Saarebas, said "I am ... unbound. Odd. Wrong."

So, it's probably a spurious link, and I've read Gaxkang's wiki, which doesn't support his, but is there any chance Gaxkang could have formerly been qunari or kossith or saarebas? Or something?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gaxkang was called the unbound because he had previously been bound along his fellow demons: Xebenkeck, the Formless, and Imshael. Gaxkang were the first to become unbound from their prison. Hence his name.

Ketojan refers to himself as unbound for an entirely different reason. He has been bound by the magical leash for most of his life, and he felt that was the right thing. Now he is suddenly unbound of the leash, and he feels that it is wrong.

[Firky]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gaxkang was called the unbound because he had previously been bound along his fellow demons: Xebenkeck, the Formless, and Imshael. Gaxkang were the first to become unbound from their prison. Hence his name.

Cool. Where did you find this? Was he "unbound" long before the others? (Or are you basing on the fact that he was in Origins, so first?)

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xebenkeck's codex entry.
And I'm basing it on him being encountered in Origins, without us having to "release" him, while Xebenkeck was released by us.

[Firky]

I missed Xebenkeck first time, through.

Thanks. Useful.

[PsychoBlonde]

Firky wrote...

That's true. I was assuming that karataam meant a group of mages, but it the game you only see one at a time (I think) so it might mean wider unit.  

It's spelled kerataam I believe, and from context it just means "unit" or "platoon".  I think the term is used again either by the Arishok who expresses surprise that you took out a whole kerataam pretty much by yourself.

[PsychoBlonde]

Netem wrote...I should check my facts; couldn't find anything on Saarebas. Some of the concept art actually shows them with horns, so if I were to speculate, maybe Ketojan lost them in battle. What about the other Saarebas in the game? Do all of them have their horns sawed off?

Yeah, the other Saarebas have their horns cut off.  Concept art isn't definitive.

[Firky]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
I think the term is used again either by the Arishok who expresses surprise that you took out a whole kerataam pretty much by yourself.

I don't remember that bit. Do you know when he said that? Like, still in Act 1? 

On the horns, I do think that every Saarebas I saw in the game had no horns.

Modifié par Firky, 18 juin 2011 - 08:54 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

On the horns, I do think that every Saarebas I saw in the game had no horns.

Art limitation, I'm guessing. I mean, you also get attacked by human mobs where every last one is identical to the next.

I still think the idea of a demon travelling on his words is fascinating.

I think the qunari understanding of magic is either very limited, or the knowledge they have of it is very carefully taught to the military class so that fear of it is bred into the system.

Perhaps, with the war against Tevinter, it's blood magic the qunari truly fear. Remember Idunna, how she speaks to Hawke and almost forces him to slice his own neck open? A qunari under a blood control spell who's forced to turn on his brothers may well be considered under demonic influence at the 'words' of a mage, deemed corrupted and slain. Just another theory.

[PsychoBlonde]

Firky wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...
I think the term is used again either by the Arishok who expresses surprise that you took out a whole kerataam pretty much by yourself.

I don't remember that bit. Do you know when he said that? Like, still in Act 1? 

On the horns, I do think that every Saarebas I saw in the game had no horns.

I think it's in act 1, don't remember specifically.  I play with subtiltes on so I notice the non-English words more.

[PsychoBlonde]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I think the qunari understanding of magic is either very limited, or the knowledge they have of it is very carefully taught to the military class so that fear of it is bred into the system.

I don't think they fear magic, exactly.  They fear chaos, and mages are seen as agents of chaos who cannot control themselves.  If they really feared magic altogether, they'd just kill mages as they're discovered.  Instead, they seek to impose order on the mages from outside.

It's a common thread in dealing with any of the Qunari in either game.  Sten was horrified with himself not for killing some harmless people who'd rescued him, but because he lost self-control and lashed out.  The Arishok hates the chaotic nature of Kirkwall and wants to impose "certainty".

The really funny part is that while being opposed to "chaos", they're also totally opposed to naturally-occurring or emergent order.  They see order as something that *has* to be imposed from outside, either by spiritual submission to the Qun, mental indoctrination, or by physical force.

[Netem]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

I think the qunari understanding of magic is either very limited, or the knowledge they have of it is very carefully taught to the military class so that fear of it is bred into the system.

Perhaps, with the war against Tevinter, it's blood magic the qunari truly fear. Remember Idunna, how she speaks to Hawke and almost forces him to slice his own neck open? A qunari under a blood control spell who's forced to turn on his brothers may well be considered under demonic influence at the 'words' of a mage, deemed corrupted and slain. Just another theory.

It's possible that the Qunari are taught to fear magic simply for "the sake of it", thought personally I wouldn't be so quick to say that it's the Qunari's understanding that is limited. I feel that we don't know enough about magic in DA, but given DAII (blood magic + the presumably inevitable corruption), I'm actually inclined to believe that magic is far more dangerous than humans and elves think, but maybe not quite as dangerous as the Qunari make it out to be.

Now, I'm not going to take Arvaraad on his word just like that, but he does claim that magic is contagious (corruption?), and that the templars don't truly understand how dangerous it is. Blood magic is obviously a tool that can be used for a great many things, both helpful and harmful, Tevinter being perhaps the most recent example. In the context of blood magic and demons, I have to agree that it makes sense for non-magic users to want to control and lock up mages.

As for the second part of your post, I agree -- I'm under the impression that Ketojan was actually a blood mage (considering the "secret thing" he gives to Hawke), so maybe the strong reaction was specific for him? And Hawke/Merrill/Bethany/Anders, being an unknown mage, received the same out of caution? I'm trying to take into account/justify why the Arishok doesn't bat an eyelid at the use of magic...

Modifié par Netem, 18 juin 2011 - 03:44 .

[PsychoBlonde]

It's also entirely possible that the Qunari differ a great deal in their personal attitudes--their philosophy seems to take rather a top-down approach to a lot of things, in that there's a lot of instruction on "when you have X, you must do Y", duties you must perform, ways things have to be, and possibly a lot of personal latitude other than that.

This may be one reason why they seem to have a cultural habit of being non-communicative in the extreme (apart from the fact that we've only seen their soldiers, and said soldiers seem to be rather grim men). As long as you're doing what the Qun demands that you do, nobody gives a damn about you. So keeping their mouths shut and getting on with things may simply be the way they preserve a semblance of personal freedom--they are free in their own minds as long as they don't go around blabbing about what they're thinking.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Netem, that's an excellent point about Ketojan's 'secret thing'. I can't remember if it was in the Codex or somewhere else, but there was a description of it somewhere in the game that implied the item might have been something Ketojan carried as a personal test or temptation, something he may not have used (or, conversely, may well have in the past).

@PsychoBlonde too, their fear of magic need not always be extreme, although the qunari who demands Ketojan back certainly reacts badly if Hawke identifies herself as a mage. I agree that they fear chaos and uncontrolled power/strength. But I say that the qunari fear of magic is tempered with respect of its destructive capabilities--they are not terrified of it, but they are extremely cautious of it. *All* of them seem to be, it's indoctrinated, like it *isn't* indoctrinated in humans or elves or dwarves. The chances of finding a mage sympathiser amongst the qunari, much less someone who'd help them escape, is minute due to how qunari are 'educated' about mages and the demands of the Qun (The Chantry dictates...the Qun demands...).

You also have to remember that according to their own history, they never started using their own mages until they started fighting the Imperium and were forced to *face* magic in battle. They probably consider it a necessary evil to use their saarebas to fight fire with fire.

[Firky]

Wow. You guys make some good points.

I agree with the "secret thing" thing. I hadn't thought of that. Being that "Talisman of Saarebas" bolsters blood magic, does that mean that saarebaseses use blood magic as a matter of course? (And that they see it is no greater threat than other magics or, alternatively, that their mages are more dangerous that human/elves. Like Netem said.) If blood magic is used as a matter of course, or even if a Saarebas is simply a Saarebas, why is the Talisman a "secret" thing though? (@SoL I've had a look but can't see online where it was a test or temptation, but that would be fascinating.)

"So keeping their mouths shut and getting on with things may simply be the way they preserve a semblance of personal freedom--they are free in their own minds as long as they don't go around blabbing about what they're thinking." Now that's an interesting idea. (And probably why I find Sten so intriguing too. I have no idea what he is thinking.) It says in codex etc that qunari fall in love, but don't "mate" for love. I'm fascinated by the idea of some kind of "chaste" qunari union because what would it be? A meeting of minds? (Or maybe the qunari have cannons AND condoms. OK, now I'm thinking too much.)

@SoL.Sten did say, "Prove me wrong, then. Words will not change me." I love that quote. I tend to see meaning where there is none, but maybe it's also indicative of how entrenched the qunari belief that demons are carried on words is. (Although not proof of its accuracy.)

Modifié par Firky, 19 juin 2011 - 04:21 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I checked in my game and it's under the codex entry for Talisman of Saarebas (emphasis added):

A simple shape on a leather cord. The uneven polish is not a failure of workmanship; rather the result of exacting and repeated study by powerful hands.

Black glimmers curl just beneath a surface that should be solid, and there are glimpses of a core that seems to be carved from a piece of horn. Gaze for more than a moment and it seems to stir something in an uncommonly dark corner of the mind, coaxing out a familiar, primal emotion: want. It is impossible to say whether Saarebas intended this as reinforcement or restriction. At the moment, it simply is.

This secret thing was never meant for the eyes of another.

Edit: For some reason I want to think it's made from a bit of a demon's horn, perhaps a desire demon if it evokes 'want'...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 19 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[Firky]

Wow. That's really cool.

I am uncertain of where to begin trying to puzzle that out. "Reinforcement or restriction." What the hell does that mean?

But, if it was "never meant for the eyes of another," maybe that means that he is an isolated blood Saarebas. (Or am I missing the point?)

Saarebas, if I could kiss you through my screen, I would. (He's so interesting.)