73 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Silfren wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

In a way, choices mattered, as you were allowed to sort of set the tone of the story and decide on what Hawke's outlook would be... but on the other hand, a lot of the decisions you make led to the same outcomes... I can't really say that choices mattered in terms of impact on the world, but they did matter in terms of the way the game played out for each version of Hawke.

I don't really understand that.  I've seen quite a few people insist that the "tone" of the world is entirely different based on Hawke's "decisions," and whether her personality is aggressive, humorous, or diplomatic, but I honestly don't see it.  I've played different Hawkes in order to play each personality tone consistently throughout the entire game, and make different choices with each playthrough, but I never noticed any real distinction in the overall feel, none at all. 

I don't think there is any difference, really.  The game brings you to a certain point, no matter what you do.  How you get there doesn't seem to matter, either - it's not the journey with DA2, it's the destination.

And to cut off the argument - yes, DAO was different,  Sure, you killed the AD no matter what.  But who did it could change, who ruled Ferelden could change, who ruled Orzamar could change, who lived and who died could change, etc.  In DA2, you kill Orsino, you kill Maredith, Hawke vanishes.  Sure, maybe Fenris fights you or joins you, maybe Anders lives or dies, but everyone goes their separate ways at the end no matter what - no lip service about travelling with you LI, or staying in Kirkwall to rule, etc.

Cassadra makes a mention, I think after Act 1, maybe Act 2, to Varric, about how she thought Hawke had come to Kirkwall with a mission, a plan in mind, and apparently she was wrong.  To me, it's more like she drew the wrong conclusion, since the facts don't really seem to change.

[Kaiser Shepard]

TJPags wrote...

And all they really needed to do to balance the pro-mage v pro-templar sides was have a choice of final boss, much like Branka or Carridan - side with Meredith,  they can show the mages winning the battle, until the end when you see Orsino has become a Harvester, thus making all the fears about dangerous mages come true.

Alternatively, side with the mages, and you face super-Meredith at the end, making the pro-mage fears of insane out of control Templars come true.

I agree, especially because it would have provided a more tanglible result in future games, namely Meredith or Orsino surviving and continuing to lead their people in the Mage-Templar War. It shouldn't even be such a difficult one to implement, either, as it really would've been a 'one or the other' decision.

Now, it seems we'll get little more than a couple of alternate lines that state whatever side Hawke chose.

[Silfren]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Silfren: Basically, the story can be wildly different based on whether you support mages or not, or whether you side with the Qunari or Mother Petrice. Those are just two examples, but I think they give the game a completely different feel based on how you approach certain situations. Now, don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that these decisions are actually important, since no matter what you do, the Qunari will attack and Meredith will go crazy. I'm only saying that it's possible to see the game differently based on whatever mindset you decide to go with. Picking a dominant personality also has in impact on this, but it's minor. I'm talking more about who you decide to kill and who you spare, the fate of your sibling at the end of Act 1... things like that.

There is some flexibility in what story gets told and how you see it... even if most of the big decisions have inevitable outcomes.

Hmm.  I just really don't see how the story can be so different.  The only changes I see based on different decisions and personalities are ultra minor and always superficial.  I guess some people are just really good at getting into their character's mindset, because no matter what sort of Hawke I try to play, from a gaming aspect I see utterly no difference in the "tone" or "feel" of the game whatsoever.  I guess I could see it if there was a substantial difference in how characters reacted to you or if quests were slightly altered in how they played out, if not in their resolution, but there isn't any of that.  So the whole "different feel" claim just makes me wonder if you people all just got a nicer edition of the game than the rest of us.  

I agree with you TJPags that DA2 isn't about the journey but the destination.  This is why it fell so horribly flat where Origins soared; because yes, even though you had a fixed ending, the "flavors" of that ending, and the way you got there, was entirely up to you.  Origins was completely about the journey.

[Icy Magebane]

@TJPags: Personally, I prefer a game like DA:O where you actually decide the fate of the world, and make decisions that impact cities and races. However, given the amount of discussion on this board about what's right and what's wrong regarding the mages, who's the best love interest, whether the Arishok had a point, and so on, it's impossible to say that this is the same game to everyone who plays it.

I agree that this game isn't the place to find branching paths that lead to completely different worlds in the end, but there is still a decent amount of variation between playthroughs when you take into account the things you do have control over.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TJPags: Personally, I prefer a game like DA:O where you actually decide the fate of the world, and make decisions that impact cities and races. However, given the amount of discussion on this board about what's right and what's wrong regarding the mages, who's the best love interest, whether the Arishok had a point, and so on, it's impossible to say that this is the same game to everyone who plays it.

I agree that this game isn't the place to find branching paths that lead to completely different worlds in the end, but there is still a decent amount of variation between playthroughs when you take into account the things you do have control over.

Thing is, the game actually has a bunch of those more concrete choices, but instead the team opted to restrict them to Hawke's personalities. Such a shame, especially because the decision to actually side with Petrice against the Qunari is one I can see quite a few users making.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Turning both Orsino and Meredith into insane monsters was the mistake, IMO.

All through the game we were dealing with human (elven, whatever) issues, and it's resolved with Hollywood-style boss fights.

The Arishok duel might have been tedious because of the bloody combat mechanics, but I found *that* more enjoyable and satisfying than Orsino and Meredith put together. Why, because I was fighting the *ARISHOK*, and not some mad demonic flesh-monster or a madwoman with a glowy red sword of doom with the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

With the Arishok you felt like you were dealing with a real person. Like the Templars and Mages, he wanted to change the city to his vision of what was better. Horrible as that vision might be, you could feel actual regret for killing him because he was perfectly sane and not *wrong*--Kirkwall needed fixing, just not his way.

Orsino and Meredith, by contrast, were dehumanised in the blink of an eye and had to be put down like rabid animals. I don't think many people cared about their deaths at all. They both wanted to better the city too in their own ways, but instead of facing them as rational people dedicated to their causes they were both mosterfied so we could have epic boss fights and a light show at the Gallows.

Killing them as a human or an elf, like they were, would have been morally harder and arguably more interesting to debate than 'They were crazy so they both had to die. The End.'

But I agree that if Orsino HAD to change, he should have had a better lead-up to it instead of just snapping (which was especially jarring if you'd stopped every single Templar from breaching the hall). Meredith...eh...I hated the idol. If you've got Anders with you and he says it's full of evil magic when you find it, *naturally* the smart thing for Hawke to do is toss it to Varric and say "Cha-ching!"

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 06 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[Silfren]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

@TJPags: Personally, I prefer a game like DA:O where you actually decide the fate of the world, and make decisions that impact cities and races. However, given the amount of discussion on this board about what's right and what's wrong regarding the mages, who's the best love interest, whether the Arishok had a point, and so on, it's impossible to say that this is the same game to everyone who plays it.

I agree that this game isn't the place to find branching paths that lead to completely different worlds in the end, but there is still a decent amount of variation between playthroughs when you take into account the things you do have control over.

Thing is, the game actually has a bunch of those more concrete choices, but instead the team opted to restrict them to Hawke's personalities. Such a shame, especially because the decision to actually side with Petrice against the Qunari is one I can see quite a few users making.

I don't suppose there's a list somewhere of all the choices that have special options based on Hawke's personality?  The wikia would indicate that these options are quite rare, as opposed to there being a bunch.

Modifié par Silfren, 06 juin 2011 - 04:22 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Silfren wrote...

I don't suppose there's a list somewhere of all the choices that have special options based on Hawke's personality?  The wikia would indicate that these options are quite rare, as opposed to there being a bunch.

As far as I know, there isn't. Which I suppose is one of the symptoms of the problem, whatwith there being no clear indication of there being such an option when you have the "wrong" personality.

[CalJones]

How it should have gone:
Pro-mage: Meredith joins fight, cut-scene ensues where she kills Orsino. End battle with Meredith.
Pro-templar: Orsino comes in, crazy with blood magic and kills Meredith. End battle with Orsino.
Result: both antagonists are dead leading to no problems with canon in future games. More incentive to replay game by taking different paths. Win-win.

[Rifneno]

CalJones wrote...

Pro-templar: Orsino comes in, crazy with blood magic and kills Meredith. End battle with Orsino.

That would so be my new screensaver.

[Sharn01]

CalJones wrote...

How it should have gone:
Pro-mage: Meredith joins fight, cut-scene ensues where she kills Orsino. End battle with Meredith.
Pro-templar: Orsino comes in, crazy with blood magic and kills Meredith. End battle with Orsino.
Result: both antagonists are dead leading to no problems with canon in future games. More incentive to replay game by taking different paths. Win-win.

This would have helped a lot but there is really no saving the whole third act unless its all completely redone from the very beginning.  The whole game up to act 3 has its moments, I have not been as vocal as many with my complaints about DA2, I think it had potential that wasnt realized, but its not a bad game until you get to act 3, every part of the game up to that point could be fixed without making drastic changes to the story.

[Sajuro]

I wish (if you are pro mage) at least the Harvester at first ran by you to start killing the templars before you catch up to it in the courtyard before the area of the Gallows you usually spend time in. Then after you beat the Harvester, you go out to Meredith who says you let the Harvester kill a lot of Templars as her beginning to go crazy spiel, You or Duncan say "What the ****? I just stopped it!" or if you are snarky Hawke "Too bad it wasn't able to get you too" She then says it is your fault it got that far and her sword becomes all glowing and ****, then the fight.

[Corto81]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Silfren: Basically, the story can be wildly different based on whether you support mages or not, or whether you side with the Qunari or Mother Petrice. Those are just two examples, but I think they give the game a completely different feel based on how you approach certain situations. Now, don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that these decisions are actually important, since no matter what you do, the Qunari will attack and Meredith will go crazy. I'm only saying that it's possible to see the game differently based on whatever mindset you decide to go with. Picking a dominant personality also has in impact on this, but it's minor. I'm talking more about who you decide to kill and who you spare, the fate of your sibling at the end of Act 1... things like that.

There is some flexibility in what story gets told and how you see it... even if most of the big decisions have inevitable outcomes.

I didn't see any of that in DA2.

Whatever you decided, you game remained 99% the same.

I'm sorry, but choices should matter like in Origins or Witcher 2...
Saying "Go Mages" for 30 hours and the game completely ignores is borderline insulting after the experiences you get when you make choice in the said Origins or TW2.

AND... Worst of all, it's so immersion-breaking it's really annoying. Not to mention, the world just ignoring the Champion doesn't make sense at all.

[themonty72]

If Bioware would had added more plot quest In Act 3 instead of three , maybe things would had made perfect sense.We really didnt get to know about Meredth and Orsino personally because of these three simple quest.That s not much to go on Bioware. I wanted to learn more about these characters and before I knew it I had defeated them both and the damn game was over. I mean both of these characters didnt even show up until Act 3, yes we got a little glimspe of Meredth in the begining when that thief stole your money. 

Modifié par themonty72, 06 juin 2011 - 06:59 .

[Mickespel]

themonty72 wrote...

If Bioware would had added more plot quest In Act 3 instead of three , maybe things would had made perfect sense.We really didnt get to know about Meredth and Orsino personally because of these three simple quest.That s not much to go on Bioware. I wanted to learn more about these characters and before I knew it I had defeated them both and the damn game was over. I mean both of these characters didnt even show up until Act 3, yes we got a little glimspe of Meredth in the begining when that thief stole your money. 

It would have been nice if they where more involved yes, even to the point of where we could seek them out and even get some questas for them. Build some trust and at some point they will start to give you excluding quests, where you by taking them are taking sides. However, excluding quests should not be mandatory. In the old space game Frontier, one can safely take military quests for both the federation and the empire but once you start doing stuff that hurt the other part, they will start to dislike you.

[berelinde]

CalJones wrote...

How it should have gone:
Pro-mage: Meredith joins fight, cut-scene ensues where she kills Orsino. End battle with Meredith.
Pro-templar: Orsino comes in, crazy with blood magic and kills Meredith. End battle with Orsino.
Result: both antagonists are dead leading to no problems with canon in future games. More incentive to replay game by taking different paths. Win-win.

That certainly would have made everything that happened from the Docks onward more sensible, yes. BSC would still be illogical for mage-friendly PCs, but 50% of the problem would have been solved.

[TEWR]

CalJones wrote...

How it should have gone:
Pro-mage: Meredith joins fight, cut-scene ensues where she kills Orsino. End battle with Meredith.
Pro-templar: Orsino comes in, crazy with blood magic and kills Meredith. End battle with Orsino.
Result: both antagonists are dead leading to no problems with canon in future games. More incentive to replay game by taking different paths. Win-win.

No it should've been more like this:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Honestly, the transformation could've been done better. Here's a few ways:

• Account for whether or not the mages live. I'm tired of saving mages only to see them die from sudden heartattacks at the same time caused by a fungal infection of the big toe (end of Broken Circle and Orsino scene)
  
• If all the mages die, Orsino loses it completely (he was still showing some sanity, though what he did was stupid), cuts his wrist, gets possessed by a demon, restrains it long enough to tell Hawke what he just did was foolish but the fear and everything else that's happened was too much to bear and that Hawke needs to slay him, and then he turns into a Harvester. That might've worked better.
  
• If none of the mages die, Orsino doesn't do anything and is optimistic about winning. He then tells Hawke that he'll stay a little longer to fight off Meredith (which wouldn't happen, he'd be dealing with say a few other templars) and escape to warn the other Circles.
  
• Using the above scenario in number 3, the Veil is torn so much that a Pride demon possesses a dead mage and casts a spell that transforms it and all the other corpses into the Harvester, which Orsino would help defeat.

Along with giving us at least 3-4 additional main quests that were really well done to show the rising tensions between the Circle and the Templars. We should also have seen more of Cullen starting to dislike what Meredith asked and he starts to question her orders.
The pro-templar path was the best in terms of Orsino's transformation, but another problem is that we don't see enough of the Gallows to feel like a RoA is going on. Do some mages escape? Are some Templars helping them escape? We don't know, and what's worse is that the other Circles rise up and set the world on fire. How? We didn't see any mages escaping. Are we to assume that it did happen? DA:O showed enough of Kinloch Hold (the Ferelden Circle) so that we knew a RoA was needed. It showed enough of where the mages live. In DA2, all we explored was the Courtyard and the office area of the First Enchanter and Knight Commander. But there is obviously more to the Gallows then those two places.


Frankly, Best Served Cold doesn't make sense on a pro-mage playthrough.

"We know you're spying for Orsino!"

The hell does that mean? Orsino's the one defending the mages and they think he's the bad guy? They think Hawke, the one who publicly denounced Meredith, is a bad guy? Grace ends up attacking you because she couldn't handle the fact that Decimus attacked you and you defended yourself. Which brings up the question of why Decimus would attack you openly if you are a mage/you have one or both of your mage companions with you.


Decimus shouldn't have attacked you unless you said to him and the others "I'm turning you in", but if you offer to help him he remains in your debt and eventually they do get captured, but Best Served Cold doesn't end with Grace or Decimus attacking you or Thrask dying, but the rebellion is put down because Samson reports to Cullen.


Seriously, some additional quests we could've done depending on each side could be:

• You investigate claims that Templars are framing mages for practicing blood magic and either making them Tranquil or killing them (pro-mage)
  
• A Senior Enchanter of the Circle has been summoning demons using Tevinter knowledge and is controlling them to make his own army to take on the Templars (pro-Templar. Somewhat similar to Tarohne but not the same thing)
  
• You hear about many mages disappearing underneath the Gallows and find out that they are being possessed due to how thin the Veil is in that particular spot, so you not only kill Abominations and Demons but defend a few mages while they attempt to mend the Veil somewhat. in that particular area, as it's the only place that can be mended. (Pro-Mage)

Those are just some ideas.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 juin 2011 - 01:15 .

[Uzzy]

All the focus on Orsino means that the Meredith factor is being ignored, in a pro-Templar playthrough. Yeah, you can argue she's insane so turns on you, but that's as much of a cop-out as Orsino just turning into a Harvester as they've no chance.

You can be the most pro-Templar character possible, killing all the mages (and I do mean all), supporting the Templars all the time, even wearing Templar armour and still Meredith tries to do you in. Why? Never explained, other then 'she's insane'. It's a horrendous cop-out and really disappointed me.

[MDT1]

Even if there would be a undeniable reason to kill both, and I still don't think the story delivers it, it's just implemented very poorly into the game, no matter what side you choose.

[TEWR]

Uzzy wrote...

All the focus on Orsino means that the Meredith factor is being ignored, in a pro-Templar playthrough. Yeah, you can argue she's insane so turns on you, but that's as much of a cop-out as Orsino just turning into a Harvester as they've no chance.

You can be the most pro-Templar character possible, killing all the mages (and I do mean all), supporting the Templars all the time, even wearing Templar armour and still Meredith tries to do you in. Why? Never explained, other then 'she's insane'. It's a horrendous cop-out and really disappointed me.

I kinda agree but not really. It really boils down to the fact that she and Orsino should've been met in Act 1 and interacted with. You never get to know them enough, what they're going through, what they're trying to do, and everything else. They should've shown Meredith as a tough woman who earnestly believes that she's keeping the city safe but she can be reasoned with, and then she gradually starts to show herself as becoming unstable, insane, and unreasonable. You should also be able to find out her backstory no matter what.


Orsino is even worse in terms of character development because we know nothing about his past. What was his life like? Were his parents murdered by thugs in front of his eyes and that's when his magical powers surfaced? We don't know and we never get to know.

Again, we should've met and been able to interact with them starting in Act 1 and in Act 2 we can interact with them even more after main quests are done. Just to talk with them, find out their view on the situation, their pasts, etc..

edit: edited because I just rushed through reading his/her post to try and avoid the BSN logging me out, and as a result was unclear on certain things

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 juin 2011 - 02:59 .

[Rifneno]

Uzzy wrote...

All the focus on Orsino means that the Meredith factor is being ignored, in a pro-Templar playthrough. Yeah, you can argue she's insane so turns on you, but that's as much of a cop-out as Orsino just turning into a Harvester as they've no chance.

You can be the most pro-Templar character possible, killing all the mages (and I do mean all), supporting the Templars all the time, even wearing Templar armour and still Meredith tries to do you in. Why? Never explained, other then 'she's insane'. It's a horrendous cop-out and really disappointed me.

The idol is not a "cop out." People are ignoring the Meredith turn because the Meredith makes sense. I don't know why you'd claim it's never explained other than "she's insane" when you know as well as the rest of us that she was tainted by an ancient malevolent force that's played a significant part in the story thus far.

[themonty72]

....not getting to know them enough thats what I said on this page. Three simple main plot quest in Act 3 is no way near enough. Bioware must had been running out time and thru Act 3 together and the results were leaving players upset and saying WHAT THE HELL

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

All the focus on Orsino means that the Meredith factor is being ignored, in a pro-Templar playthrough. Yeah, you can argue she's insane so turns on you, but that's as much of a cop-out as Orsino just turning into a Harvester as they've no chance.

You can be the most pro-Templar character possible, killing all the mages (and I do mean all), supporting the Templars all the time, even wearing Templar armour and still Meredith tries to do you in. Why? Never explained, other then 'she's insane'. It's a horrendous cop-out and really disappointed me.

The idol is not a "cop out." People are ignoring the Meredith turn because the Meredith makes sense. I don't know why you'd claim it's never explained other than "she's insane" when you know as well as the rest of us that she was tainted by an ancient malevolent force that's played a significant part in the story thus far.

Agreed. I have no qualms with the idol because Meredith is a Templar and templars use lyrium, though I forgot to put that in my previous post . And we know that it is a deadly lyrium idol, so it's not a cop-out.

my real issue is that we don't see enough of Meredith's character in game.