73 réponses à ce sujet

[Arthur Cousland]

Didn't Bioware pull the plug on Origins content because of how nicely DA2 was coming along? It didn't make sense for Bioware to kill off Origins and then release a rushed DA2. Most people would have been happy if DA2 came out a year later. Situations like this could have been done better with more development time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Turning both Orsino and Meredith into insane monsters was the mistake, IMO.

All through the game we were dealing with human (elven, whatever) issues, and it's resolved with Hollywood-style boss fights.

The Arishok duel might have been tedious because of the bloody combat mechanics, but I found *that* more enjoyable and satisfying than Orsino and Meredith put together. Why, because I was fighting the *ARISHOK*, and not some mad demonic flesh-monster or a madwoman with a glowy red sword of doom with the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

With the Arishok you felt like you were dealing with a real person. Like the Templars and Mages, he wanted to change the city to his vision of what was better. Horrible as that vision might be, you could feel actual regret for killing him because he was perfectly sane and not *wrong*--Kirkwall needed fixing, just not his way.

Orsino and Meredith, by contrast, were dehumanised in the blink of an eye and had to be put down like rabid animals. I don't think many people cared about their deaths at all. They both wanted to better the city too in their own ways, but instead of facing them as rational people dedicated to their causes they were both mosterfied so we could have epic boss fights and a light show at the Gallows.

Killing them as a human or an elf, like they were, would have been morally harder and arguably more interesting to debate than 'They were crazy so they both had to die. The End.'

But I agree that if Orsino HAD to change, he should have had a better lead-up to it instead of just snapping (which was especially jarring if you'd stopped every single Templar from breaching the hall). Meredith...eh...I hated the idol. If you've got Anders with you and he says it's full of evil magic when you find it, *naturally* the smart thing for Hawke to do is toss it to Varric and say "Cha-ching!"

QFT.

[YeGodz]

For all her limited screen time, Meredith gets a decent amount of character development on the templar route. I mean, yeah, she's crazy, but her crazy makes sense from a certain viewpoint. Kind of a more extreme Loghain. The templars on the whole get this treatment: you interact with them throughout the game, and most of them come off as complex and conflicted about what they're doing.

The mages...not so much. Innocent victims or EEEVIL killers. They could have been more complex, but you never really got to interact with them. Except for Orsino in act 3, and even then he's just sort of there. You don't even find out that he was "O" unless you side with the templars.

[Areksu]

There should have been a third option for the ending. By the time you get to the end of DA2, all of the nobility owe you there lives, you have the entire city guard on your side, Varric probably has enough information to blackmail the criminal elements of the city into next tuesday (plus I can promise them future profits for assisting the champion), and Isabella has a ship (storyline wise, ship + Isabella = sinking Qunari dreadnaughts). Not to mention there is so much corruption on both sides that supporting either of them isn't going to help. If you've completed all of the side quests, it really shouldn't be a question of who you are with, but more of who is with you. There is no doubt that both sides have to go, I just wish that the creators of this game didn't do so much to disempower the protagonist even though storyline wise he is the most influential character in Kirkwall.

[Areksu]

wastelander75 wrote...

don't forget the possibility of forging some alliance with Tal'Vashoth scattered around the area.

That's a bit iffy. They are supposedly "revelling in chaos" and live off terrorizing caravans along the coast. It might be possible to convince them by promising them positions in kirkwall's military or guard (Qunari are big on their roles), but from what I can tell of the storyline they really don't look like the type to cooperate.

Modifié par Areksu, 06 juin 2011 - 10:16 .

[WhiteKnyght]

True magic can be dangerous and blood magic and Orsino creates a grey area so the players don't all lean on the side of the mages. But the path is still clear to me as the Templars do nothing but make bullies of themselves.

- By taking any and everybody with magic and imprison them they are forcing people to submit to their religion just like the Qunari do.
- They imprison and murder anybody for petty things like giving food to an apostate or harboring one. Elthina claims the Chantry respects the law but the Templars sure don't. They don't even respect their own laws.
- Several Templars abuse, rape, tranquilize, and kill mages for sheer please and nothing more. Even Meredith abused the Right of Annulment to satisfy her own.

Not to mention the fact that the Chantry and Templars claim they are fulfilling The Maker's will. But its been pointed out before that it does not say in Chant of Light that mages should be kept under lock and key. They kidnap, imprison, and kill because of two verses that don't even say what they say it says.

If nothing else, the mages are honest in their goal. Freedom. Whereas the Chantry is just punishing anybody with magic for the Tevinter Imperium's past crimes and claiming it as the will of the Maker..

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 06 juin 2011 - 11:12 .

[HSHAW]

Areksu wrote...

There should have been a third option for the ending. By the time you get to the end of DA2, all of the nobility owe you there lives, you have the entire city guard on your side, Varric probably has enough information to blackmail the criminal elements of the city into next tuesday (plus I can promise them future profits for assisting the champion), and Isabella has a ship (storyline wise, ship + Isabella = sinking Qunari dreadnaughts). Not to mention there is so much corruption on both sides that supporting either of them isn't going to help. If you've completed all of the side quests, it really shouldn't be a question of who you are with, but more of who is with you. There is no doubt that both sides have to go, I just wish that the creators of this game didn't do so much to disempower the protagonist even though storyline wise he is the most influential character in Kirkwall.

#1: The guards are busy dealing with riots and looting during The Last Straw (and the criminal elements of the city are busy looting things in the chaos so that's those two allies out).

#2: Didn't Isabela spend most of that running away then go into a strom in the hope of sinking the Qunari Dreadnought?

#3: You assume that the nobility have enough forces on hand to be a threat to the Templars and that they would be willing to risk going against Meredith.

#4: How many soldiers do you think will turn and run when Meredith starts animating statues?

#5: You're the second most powerful individual in Kirkwall (second to Meredith obviously), not the most powerful in Kirkwall.

Modifié par HSHAW, 07 juin 2011 - 07:50 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers admitted Orsino becoming a Harvester was simply to prevent the mage option from being "the good choice," which is why it makes absolutely no sense for a pro-mage Hawke to get Orsino turning into a Harvester, but this is the same game where my pro-mage apostate Hawke has to go through "Best Served Cold" and have everyone claim he's working for Meredith after he publicly denounced her.

Where did they say this?

I want to say in the being of Act 3.  Orsino asks for Hawke's opinion, your character has a dialogue option pop up.  I always tell them they are both wrong and I'm still accused of working for Meredith because you get her letter first. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Didn't Bioware pull the plug on Origins content because of how nicely DA2 was coming along? It didn't make sense for Bioware to kill off Origins and then release a rushed DA2. Most people would have been happy if DA2 came out a year later. Situations like this could have been done better with more development time.

Yes, they did.  There was so much they could have done with Origins in regards to dlc and expansions.  I'm sure when the decision was made to scrap the old engine and rebuild it was when this happened. 

[Nightdragon8]

well you have to admit that the new engine is nicer to the computer, and doesn't crash nearly as often, I mean genreally one AOE in orgins was flirting with crashing the game or not.

back on topic.

I think the fight with Meredith was inevitable cause on the pro templar route, she is emotionally devistated at teh fact the mages killed her "friend" Elsa the tranquil mage. (btw why is Elas wearing makeup? I mean I don't she really cares what she looks like. (which makes me wonder if Meredith was lovers with Elsa.because of the way she emotionally breaks up over her death))

So imo Meredith was going crazy partly due to her own veiws and the idol. Also if you where a mage her turning on you isn't that big of a surprise cause at that point Mage = Evil.

 I agree Orisno was a WTF moment during the pro mage side. What they should have done was shown the stress of seeing the templars killing the other mages near you while the fight was going on, so at least give a sense of why he would snap. They could have also shown the stresses of "waiting for battle" I mean Hawke and gang are IMO seasoned fighters, I mean Hake Varric spent what 2 weeks in the deep roads. I'm pretty sure they can handle whatever life can throw at them. While Orisno was cooped up in the gallows for 10 years with only being able to get out during the Qunairi invasion. So he isn't really used to having to kill and stuff. So they should have at least had some dialoge that would show that he is stressed out and may be on the verge of snapping.

But also if you think about it Orsino was in communication with the guy who killed your mother. They where working on Necromancy. So in a way from at least act 2 you can say Orsino didn't have all his screws inplace as well. So him snapping and turning to blood magic shouldn't be that big of a surprise.

So in my humble opionion we had 2 people who really didn't have the right stuff to be the leaders of there respective organizations under that high of a stress of an environment

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 12 juin 2011 - 01:49 .

[themonty72]

Agreed

[Annarl]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers admitted Orsino becoming a Harvester was simply to prevent the mage option from being "the good choice," which is why it makes absolutely no sense for a pro-mage Hawke to get Orsino turning into a Harvester, but this is the same game where my pro-mage apostate Hawke has to go through "Best Served Cold" and have everyone claim he's working for Meredith after he publicly denounced her.

The part about Orsino going Harvester that bothers me most is WHEN he does it - during a complete lull in the battle, he decides to change into a Harvester - and attack the people fighting with him, rather than going out the gate and attacking the Templars.  To me, that's the biggest "FAIL" moment of the whole thing.

And all they really needed to do to balance the pro-mage v pro-templar sides was have a choice of final boss, much like Branka or Carridan - side with Meredith,  they can show the mages winning the battle, until the end when you see Orsino has become a Harvester, thus making all the fears about dangerous mages come true.

Alternatively, side with the mages, and you face super-Meredith at the end, making the pro-mage fears of insane out of control Templars come true.

Frankly, fighting both no matter what remains a "this makes no sense" moment for me.

I totally agree.  Orsino attacks you, his ally, it makes no sense....well except for the crazy thing.  It should have happen in battle against the templars or something.  I really hate that ending.  

[lobi]

Golems Of Amgarrack did not make as much as they thought it would so they decided to reuse the Harvester to offset losses and tacked a loose plot point around that economic decision. Thats how it seemed to me because we saw both bosses no matter what we chose. Should have been one boss per path. Orsino could have had a red Lyrium amulet.

Modifié par lobi, 12 juin 2011 - 03:23 .

[Nightdragon8]

lobi wrote...

Golems Of Amgarrack did not make as much as they thought it would so they decided to reuse the Harvester to offset losses and tacked a loose plot point around that economic decision. Thats how it seemed to me because we saw both bosses no matter what we chose. Should have been one boss per path. Orsino could have had a red Lyrium amulet.

funny enough i thought that was going to happen also during the pro templar route but nope meredith still had it and turned on you.

Also the reason I gernally go agianst the Templars is this 

You: "I don't want to get involed" "
Meredith: "You are involed, You are the champoion of Krikwall Do your duty or fall with these mages"

IMO You did not just treaten me. Do your duty or die? Sorry if any line has to be crossed to say she was a tyrant thats the line do or die.

[dragonflight288]

I agree. The champion could just as easily say he will do his duty and protect the common people alongside the guards as the gangs may take this opportunity to start looting, killing, etc... But nope, it's all about templars and mages.

[Marcy3655]

There's a line from a movie....

"Maybe there's more to the story that we don't get yet..."

M

[Alex Kershaw]

Are you really defending Bioware's decision on this one? Giving the game one unsatisfying ending is not good enough.

[Lethys1]

themonty72 wrote...

That might not be much of a topic maybe it is. Players say your choices didnt matter in act 3 because no manner who you sided with you achievet the same results. I kind of think  the reason why your Hawk had to killed Orsino because he turns to blood magic and you had to protect kirkwall before he got out into to city. Everyone knows that. What  i pointing toward the reason why your choices didnt manner..This  is the reason Orsino tuns to blood magic is out of fear,  i dont think he belive that your hawk,the mages and himself could defeat Meredith thats proves that Meredith was more powerful than Orsino.. And the reason I think your choices didnt matter if you choose the templars and had to kill Meredith is because she didnt trust you either. Your Champion Hawk was threat to her are you could blame it on the staue as Varrick said.Yeah I might be wrong and you might be right. Tell me your thoughts

Lolwut?  They both go crazy for no reason.  Doesn't matter specifics, both of them deserve to die for their actions on any playthrough, Orsino for hiding Quentin and protecting him and Meredith for being overly tyrannical.  That's before you take into account the idol or the blood magic.

All this leads to a story where killing everyone is the only option, but still you are presented with who you want to support.  Who will you feel most bad for while slaughtering everyone?

I hated this game's plot, one of the worst written pieces of entertainment of any kind, ever.  It's story treats us like we're children with it's ludicrous plot developments.  No multiple endings is, to me, unforgivable nowadays.  Especially for a not that great combat game which had bugs, one environment and no tactical camera.

Modifié par Lethys1, 14 juin 2011 - 11:01 .

[Torax]

Keep in mind in regards to the logic in a Pro-Templar game (Of which I've never played personally). Meredith was trying to consolidate power. The Viscount being dead meant she was truly the reigning power of Kirkwall except for one person who became a hero despite what Meredith wanted. The Champion saved all the Nobles along with taking out hordes of Qunari through many areas during the invasion. On top of that was making headway against how many criminal groups through the years. Meredith was being manipulated by the Idol and power had to be a part of it. So she would be looking for a way to discredit/remove the champion once the time called for it. The actions of taking out a bunch of the Circle including Orsino would have elevated the Champion far beyond anything Meredith could control.

Meanwhile if you're a mage supporter and or even diplomatic in general.

Player - "Wow this is going great. Send more at me. I'll save everyone. It's not my fault they're attacking. They didn't even talk to me first."

Orsino - "THIS IS GOING TERRIBLE!!! I'M GOING TO TURN INTO THIS CREATURE YOU SAW IN A DLC IN THE LAST GAME. OMFGBBQWTFKK?"

Player - "Did you miss the part where I just turned them all into paste? I mean seriously if you just chill with that baulding idiot with the std's we'll be fine. I promise."

Orsino - "NO IT'S TOO LATE. I'M GONNA BE THIS MONSTER NOW AND ATTACK YOU CAUSE THE SCRIPT DEMANDS IT."

Player - "Couldn't we at least talk this over first..." (Fight begins)

-----

Hawke gets asked by Orsino to go check out some mage happenings

Player - "I'll just walk over there and say hello."

Player - "Hi, my name is Hawke. I'm a mage and I really like mages."

Angry Mage - "We know you are working with Meredith so we have to kill you now!"

Player - "No I'm not. I don't even like her. I'd probably kill her if they gave me a chance. She even gave me a sort of angry look when she called me champion."

Angry Mage - We are going to attack you. The plot demands."

Player - "Look I love mages. As long as you don't attack me, I don't have a reason to fight you. I have mage friends."

Angry Mage - "The plot demands."

Player - "Look I even got lots of money and a big estate. We could get some food and ale and get really thrashed together. It'll be great. I'm buying."

Angry Mage - "You die now!" (Fight Begins)


That is a bit about how the game goes.

Last example.

Player - "Okay I escorted this Qunari Mage thing despite saying No to the priest chick. He apparently wants to join back with you. I've never heard a him say anything but a grunt. He is all your's nice Qunari guy. I got no qualms with you. Be seeing you."

Arvaarad - "Thank you for showing respect. It's rare that ever happens."

(Saarebas speaks some kind words to Hawke. Arvaarad kills him.)

Arvaarad - "He died honorably. Now I must kill you and your companions."

Player - "But I helped you. I respect your people. I even kind of agree with the Qun."

Arvaarad - "You have to die. The Pl'eerQun demands."

Player - "Look I didn't even kill your people. I killed other people trying to kill your mage. I didn't even want to be here in the first place. What if I just go and apologize to the Arishok. We're cool beans I promise."

Arvaarad - "The plot demands!" (The fight begins.)

The list goes on and on.