262 réponses à ce sujet

[happy_daiz]

You guys are mean. :-)

[Chromie]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

I like DAO and DAO also Ariella!

Me too, I would never be able to choose between DAO and DAO!

Lies! Everyone with any taste knows DAO could never top DAO.

Pfft. Idk what game you were playing but DAO clearly beats DAO on every level.

[Dubya75]

Ringo12 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

I like DAO and DAO also Ariella!

Me too, I would never be able to choose between DAO and DAO!

Lies! Everyone with any taste knows DAO could never top DAO.

Pfft. Idk what game you were playing but DAO clearly beats DAO on every level.

You have a point. If I had to choose between DAO and DAO...I'd get DAO!

Back on topic however, I think it's been made clear that games with the same elements can (and should) be compared!
If a company is going to sell a title as being an RPG but it lacks certain core elements - or alas, the quality it requires, then it is also fair to compare it to a more feature-rich title that also sells itself as being an RPG.
In today's competitive market game makers have to strive for more than a half-baked 18-month development cycles and endless recycled environements stuck on a sub-par engine.
CDP has achieved much better results retricting support to DX9 only, where BioWare had DX11 to take advantage of but failed.
TW2 also has a much deeper story with none of the meaningless fetch quests that DA2 is riddled with.
Ignorance is bliss providing you don't find a comparison. In this case the bubble burst for me when I started playing TW2.
It is not unreasonable, it is reality.

Modifié par Dubya75, 06 juin 2011 - 04:02 .

[Dariuszp]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

Ariella wrote...

I felt (and continue to feel) no impetus to finish either TW (past Visima) or TW2 (past Flotsom), whereas I played through both DAO and DAO several times. I think that pretty much sums up my own feeling on these games.

However, Last Wish is a pretty good book, especially considering I was reading it translation. I think I may stick to reading about Geralt rather than trying to play him. I find him more compelling on the page than on the screen.

That is easily the biggest flaw for me with both Witcher games (but particularly the first one as I never got close to finishing it) With all Bioware games (except Sonic DB) the first time I played I couldn't stop. Their style of story etc is always so compelling that I have to keep going. I lose sleep and waste hours and hours on each one.

TW1 I put down and never came back, and even in TW2 which I love it took several hours of intermittent play feeling a little bored before it gripped me and pulled me in.

It's just gameplay. To make small comparison, you probably didn't like Gothic series. Some people do, some dont. I love Witcher style of telling story and consequences of your action. Also i like open world with all those people around and other stuff.
But my brother for example hate all this. Hi think that any cutscene or something that require runing at some distance is unnesesery. So he never get to like Gothic or Witcher.
Just like some people love grinding in korean MMORPG. They spend hours just to make 10% of 1 lvl (Silkroad or something - my friend play it). And some people just want instant action. So they play games that are 5-6 hours long but full of shooting, destroying and stuff.

And why people compare this two titles ? Or why they will probably compare DA II to Skyrim or meaby Deus Ex ? Because DA II fails as sequel. It was just avarage or less in majority of DAO fans. And few months later we got second big RPG this year. It has already 400k sold copies, critic and user reviews mostly 9.0 and above, it have better graphic, live world, nice combat system (some peopl estill prefer old one) etc. They upgrade almost every aspect of this game but they done it right in my opinion.
Reason why people like me and others talk a lot about Witcher 2 is because Dragon Age II should be like The Witcher 2. It should take what was good in first game and make it better. Then take what was bad and change it.
But what BW do - they take what was good and change it to worst. Nothing more in my opinion.
We can just hope that DA II will be around 2014 or 2015 and It will be as it should.

And I want to point out that Mass Effect 3 have 2-year development cycle (it could be shorter but after DA II they extend it). Just like DA II. So we cannot expect anything better. And they did remove loot of things in DA II (like companion armor, just like in DA II after ME2) so i dont even know what to expect in ME3. I know only one thing for sure. I will not buy ME3 in pre-order. I did it with DA II and if they didn't release demo - I could be screw just like some of you. Good thing that I wait and recive DA II for half a price and ME2 for free as bonus.

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...


TW2 for me was a MUCH more immersive experience.
It's made going back to DA2 feel like cheap plastic. EVERY aspect of TW2 is way better than DA2 from first impressions through to support (IMO).

They are way too different to be compared, IMO. Love 'em both for very different reasons. 

See, I like rubies just as much as sapphires. Both are jewels, yet they go with different clothes, occasions, have different meanings.......

I much prefer to have the cake AND eat the chocolate. I won't choose.

Funny story...rubies and sapphires are the same stone, one got more heat and pressure....Sorry totally geeked out there. Loved Geology. So not the best example for your argument of not comparing. But perfect for mine. They are both action RPGs, one got to spend more time and care making it.

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

shantisands wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

I think its safe to say that TW2 was genre-redefining, in a way that DA2 hoped to be but wasn't. It's good for everybody though, not just the folks who made or simply enjoyed TW2. Even if you didn't like TW2 you will benefit from it being so awesome, because its now the new measuring stick, any game from now on that isn't as awesome as TW2 will be negatively compared to it, and everybody knows it. The TW2 folks have acknowledged that they got their inspiration from Bioware, and you can certainly see plenty of that Bioware influence in TW2. And now Bioware will be inspired by TW2 as they attempt to make DA3 even better than TW2. Its going to raise the standard, so whether you enjoyed TW2 or not you're going to enjoy future games a lot more because of its positive influence, and that means we're all winners!

Agree with this!  Raising the bar, raises the bar, period.  It can do good things for our games!

That said, I would always recommend TW2 to people who didn't care for TW1 as it is much improved in immersiveness,story, environment and general cohesion (imho) just as I would recommend DAO to people who didn't care for DA2.   Sometimes, the comparison between games in the same series can tell a lot, sometimes comparing games in a genre says a great deal also.  It is natural to compare. Being civil about it though, is helpful.

I agree with you both. And that was what gaming used to be all about: Raising the bar and pushing the limits. And about being civl about it... That's what we all should do. That's why I respect Persephone. She's on the other side of the fence and doesn't stir things up to get her point across. If only she didn't like operas, operattas and musicals. Sigh.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, thanks. Sometimes my inner snark does break through, but I do my best to keep it under control.

At the end of the day, we all love RPGs and we stand a better chance as a whole group when it comes to telling Bioware what we'd like to see in their next release. Boy, I do not envy those guys.

And this^ is one of the many reasons you are class act. I am with Angry about you Perse, and my inner snark too get out sometimes. Unlike Angry though, I love opera too.

[Cutlass Jack]

These forums be Snark Infested Waters. Says so on my piratey map.

[erynnar]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

These forums be Snark Infested Waters. Says so on my piratey map.

Yes! But you have your rapier (whit) and your handsome good looks and your pirate skills to traverse them. I flounder, wait, I'm a fish? I tend to fall in those waters.

[_Aine_]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

These forums be Snark Infested Waters. Says so on my piratey map.

*needs a copy of that map*

[Realmzmaster]

What I go away for a few hours and it is like one big group hug. Stop this lovey dovey stuff. Others will start to think we are finding middle ground here. Now everyone back to their respective corners and lets have a good clean fight.

What the fight is over? Will the last person turn out the lights.

Jack can I have a copy of that map or it one of a kind.

[erynnar]

Realmzmaster wrote...

What I go away for a few hours and it is like one big group hug. Stop this lovey dovey stuff. Others will start to think we are finding middle ground here. Now everyone back to their respective corners and lets have a good clean fight.

What the fight is over? Will the last person turn out the lights.

Jack can I have a copy of that map or it one of a kind.

*pounces on Realmzmater and hugs tight* Sorry, no fighting to the death here! And no turning out the lights! We need to party!

And I am hoping for a map copy too. 

[Ariella]

Dubya75 wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

I like DAO and DAO also Ariella!

Me too, I would never be able to choose between DAO and DAO!

I'm so glad you all enjoyed my typo, it made a good substitute for my motley, which is at the cleaners.

I do honestly however enjoy DAO and DA2, in comparison to the Witcher 1-2 which didn't really jump off the screen at me.

Someone, can't remember who, however commented that TW was a better RPG set in a world with better history, I'll disagree here, having just read the first book Last Wish. Many of the curse Geralt encounters or lifts or monsters fought etc, are variations of the old Grimms fairytales and others, washed even darker if that's possible. Snow White, Beauty and the Beast... They're all there, just dressed up in different clothing, I'm not saying that it's bad, just saying that it's not written to be an RPG world. In fact, Geralt's creator took a road similar to Tolkien in that he was retelling the stories in the fashion they "really" happened.

Thedas was created for the top down for over 5 years to be an RPG setting, and has a history, if one reads the codices, a deep one. One that has deep mysteries of it's own. Like where do the dragons really fit? What is the Black City? What's the real connection with Lyrium? What's the truth about the elves and their history? Is the Maker real? Are the Old Gods truly deities or an even higher evolution of Dragon?  Lots of mysteries still to be explored, and lots of places where Bioware can take the player. The Witcher francise is limited by Geralt, unless they start making games set in the world but where one can play a customized character.

It's also easier and a lot less risky to do games based on already successful franchises than strike out on one's own with an original IP. Bioware could have stayed with making more NWNs and KotORs, but they wanted to tell their own story unfettered by the franchise owner's approval. Once CDProject starts putting its toes in the water of original IPs (which is my benchmark for a good RPG company or not) we'll see, but right now I find that Bioware is probably taking a greater risk than CDProject.

At the end of the day, however, Witcher and Dragon Age are very different games in the genre. I'm glad both exist, especially in such a small market as the cRPG scene. The more variety the better. These versus threads, however, is like getting a White Sox fan and a Cubs fan in a room talking about the best team... You're never going to get an reasonable answer, just lots of shouting, and with the comparison I used maybe some creative cursing, but it won't go anywhere.

@Ringo: you asked what I was on in an ealier thread: Benadryl 50mg for sinuses, which while supposed to be non-drowsy turns me into a husk, or a zombie, or Forsaken (pick your brand of sami-mindless undead)

Modifié par Ariella, 06 juin 2011 - 08:42 .

[DragonRageGT]

Ariella wrote...

At the end of the day, however, Witcher and Dragon Age are very different games in the genre. I'm glad both exist, especially in such a small market as the cRPG scene. The more variety the better. These versus threads, however, is like getting a White Sox fan and a Cubs fan in a room talking about the best team... You're never going to get an reasonable answer, just lots of shouting, and with the comparison I used maybe some creative cursing, but it won't go anywhere.

@Ringo: you asked what I was on in an ealier thread: Benadryl 50mg for sinuses, which while supposed to be non-drowsy turns me into a husk, or a zombie, or Forsaken (pick your brand of sami-mindless undead)

*looks for Persephone's post to quote it again* - Never mind. It's been quoted enough already but when the biggest DA2 fan declares TW2 as the " bestest RPG she's ever played" ...

And for the sake of comparison, forget White Sox or Cubs. It's like getting Barcelona's and some 3rd division Spanish League team's fans in a room talking about the best team. Sure, they'll never agree but we all know which team is the better one!

[erynnar]

RageGT wrote...

Ariella wrote...

At the end of the day, however, Witcher and Dragon Age are very different games in the genre. I'm glad both exist, especially in such a small market as the cRPG scene. The more variety the better. These versus threads, however, is like getting a White Sox fan and a Cubs fan in a room talking about the best team... You're never going to get an reasonable answer, just lots of shouting, and with the comparison I used maybe some creative cursing, but it won't go anywhere.

@Ringo: you asked what I was on in an ealier thread: Benadryl 50mg for sinuses, which while supposed to be non-drowsy turns me into a husk, or a zombie, or Forsaken (pick your brand of sami-mindless undead)

*looks for Persephone's post to quote it again* - Never mind. It's been quoted enough already but when the biggest DA2 fan declares TW2 as the " bestest RPG she's ever played" ...

And for the sake of comparison, forget White Sox or Cubs. It's like getting Barcelona's and some 3rd division Spanish League team's fans in a room talking about the best team. Sure, they'll never agree but we all know which team is the better one!

Okay, that sports reference just cracked me up. Rage, you're killn' me.  

@Ari I see what your saying about the difference in the stories and on one hand I agree. But DA2 threw, blew, watered down, or ignored a lot of it's own established lore.  Blood magic suddenly involved talking to demons in the Fade? Since when? Wynne is technincally an abomination, but she didn't turn her Fade spirit evil with her human emotions, and don't tell me Wynne doesn't have her dark side, we all do.

Anders, who was only interested in being free himself and didn't want to kill his oppressors, he agreed with Wynne that the Circle separating from the Chantry was a bad idea, but suddenly decides to allow himself to become an abomination? Justice says he can't jump bodies anymore but he does. Justice belittles Anders for not wanting to support mage freedom everywhere and Anders says welcome to the world of the living.

Witcher and DA are different. But they are both action RPGs. And they can stand as examples to each other. If DA2 had rocked my world, and Witcher 2 disappointed me, you can sure as hell bet I would be holding DA2 up and comparing Witcher 2 to it, and pointing out on the CDP Red's website what they needed to look at in DA2 to improve their own game.

Nothing wrong with comparing. Do I want DA to turn into WItcher? Or BioWare to turn into CDP Red? Nope. Love them both for different reason. Doesn't mean we can't, nor shouldn't, compare and contrast. As an artist I was put in classees where did just that. It made us work to improve our own unique styles.

[Cutlass Jack]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Jack can I have a copy of that map or it one of a kind.

*passes out limited collector edition lithographs to everyone*

There you go.

[erynnar]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Jack can I have a copy of that map or it one of a kind.

*passes out limited collector edition lithographs to everyone*

There you go.

WOOT!!!

[contextual_entity]

neppakyo wrote...

Doesn't sound like you actually played the Witcher 2(TW2 is the game being compared to DA2, not TW1). And unless your son is over 17, he shouldnt be playing that game, if he is under 17, then you're a horrible parent. ^-^

Because the violence, gore and particial nudity of Dragon Age is fine but an animated womans nipple, well that's just evil, surely.

Modifié par Amitar, 06 juin 2011 - 10:08 .

[Ariella]

erynnar wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Ariella wrote...

At the end of the day, however, Witcher and Dragon Age are very different games in the genre. I'm glad both exist, especially in such a small market as the cRPG scene. The more variety the better. These versus threads, however, is like getting a White Sox fan and a Cubs fan in a room talking about the best team... You're never going to get an reasonable answer, just lots of shouting, and with the comparison I used maybe some creative cursing, but it won't go anywhere.

@Ringo: you asked what I was on in an ealier thread: Benadryl 50mg for sinuses, which while supposed to be non-drowsy turns me into a husk, or a zombie, or Forsaken (pick your brand of sami-mindless undead)

*looks for Persephone's post to quote it again* - Never mind. It's been quoted enough already but when the biggest DA2 fan declares TW2 as the " bestest RPG she's ever played" ...

And for the sake of comparison, forget White Sox or Cubs. It's like getting Barcelona's and some 3rd division Spanish League team's fans in a room talking about the best team. Sure, they'll never agree but we all know which team is the better one!

Okay, that sports reference just cracked me up. Rage, you're killn' me.  

@Ari I see what your saying about the difference in the stories and on one hand I agree. But DA2 threw, blew, watered down, or ignored a lot of it's own established lore.  Blood magic suddenly involved talking to demons in the Fade? Since when? Wynne is technincally an abomination, but she didn't turn her Fade spirit evil with her human emotions, and don't tell me Wynne doesn't have her dark side, we all do.

Anders, who was only interested in being free himself and didn't want to kill his oppressors, he agreed with Wynne that the Circle separating from the Chantry was a bad idea, but suddenly decides to allow himself to become an abomination? Justice says he can't jump bodies anymore but he does. Justice belittles Anders for not wanting to support mage freedom everywhere and Anders says welcome to the world of the living.

Witcher and DA are different. But they are both action RPGs. And they can stand as examples to each other. If DA2 had rocked my world, and Witcher 2 disappointed me, you can sure as hell bet I would be holding DA2 up and comparing Witcher 2 to it, and pointing out on the CDP Red's website what they needed to look at in DA2 to improve their own game.

Nothing wrong with comparing. Do I want DA to turn into WItcher? Or BioWare to turn into CDP Red? Nope. Love them both for different reason. Doesn't mean we can't, nor shouldn't, compare and contrast. As an artist I was put in classees where did just that. It made us work to improve our own unique styles.

@Rage, No, it's definately a Sox vs. Cubs thing, trust me on this. One labors under a curse by a goat, the other  can be and has been a contender. I know which one's bettter, just the darn yuppy northsiders and their BMWs.

@ery. I'm going to disagree here, especially given the Anders and Wynne comparison. Wynne's spirit came to her when she was dying, ego was most likely weak and it seems that the spirit probably hadn't intended to merge with her, but to give her enough energy to go on, and Wynne didn't have the same kind of anger management issues that Anders does, plus the fact it's thought it's a spirit of Faith and was still in the Fade at the time this all happened, Plus this spirit had been watching out for Wynne since she'd been a child. Anders and Justice didn't have that kind of time together.

Anders is a different story. If you read the short story of how the merge happened, you have two strong egos trying to inhabit one body. Add to that the fact that Justice has been in the human world for a while now, and we don't know if or how that affected him. Anders was pissed off. He hated the templars with a passion. Ask him in Awaking about what he wants, and his response is that he'd really love a banquet, a harem and the right to rain fireballs down on every templar in existance. And just when he thinks he finally got away from them, the Chantry sends a watchdog to become a Grey Warden.

Then the merge happens, and Rolan turns up with several templars. It's a wonder things didn't go worse then they did.  If the merge had happened in privacy, where Anders could have better managed the situation, it may have gone the way Justice predicted, but a bunch of people tried to murder him. The very people he hated and feared, and in that moment Justice became Vengence and self defense slaughter. None of this changes the lore, especially considering a) very few people get possessed by spirits rather than demons (we've only seen two now) different spirits are going to react in different ways based on their focus of virtue or vice.

Blood magic and demons have been paired since DAO. According to the DA wiki the only way to learn blood magic in Modern Thedas is via demons, so that's no lore gaff.

[Lumikki]

erynnar wrote...

Doesn't mean we can't, nor shouldn't, compare and contrast.

Not really for me, but I wanna comment this.

Of course we can and even should compare.

That wasn't really point, but when you do so, do it fair and admit that both games has issues. Example I have many times tryed to bring up that fixed as pre-define characters can be ISSUE for some players, because in many RPG's,  player can customize your own character. How ever, the fans of The Witcher seem to say it's not issue, because Witcher is based in book, but same time they seem to have a lot of issues with DA2, what may not be issues for others.

Now don't get me wrong, I have also issues with DA2 too, but that's not the point. How ever, people should not dismiss others issues when they actually are part of basic RPG feature. Or is someone here saying ability customize you character and gameplay (class) is NOT normal basic RPG feature?

The Witcher is missing it and it's basic RPG feature. Roleplaying isn't just players choises in story, but also players choises with characters. Now you can create any excuses for it, but that doesn't change, TW is missign one main RPG feature.

1. Tomb Raider: Pre-define character and no choises in story.
2. Dungeon Siege: Customized character , no choises in story.
3. The Witcher: Pre-define character and story with choises.
4. DAO: Customized character and story with some choises.

All these games can be roleplayed, because only thing what you need is any character and story. How ever, RPG, isn't just any character and any story. It's about choises, not just in story, but also with character it self. You customize the story with choises and customize the character with choises, also often you can customize characters gameplay style with choises (class, skills).

You may find some of the listed games little funny, but that's not the point.

My point is that do the comparing fair and start admit that TW's lack of character customation is issue. It's one of the main reason example why I have hard time like The Witcher as playing it, because I'm forced to roleplay character I don't like. it's not just the apperance, but also the gameplay it self as been forced this melee gameplay.

Modifié par Lumikki, 06 juin 2011 - 10:46 .

[Ariella]

Lumikki,

I think you'll find that a LOT of fantasy based games tended to get lumped into the RPG genre back in the day. Anything that had elves or dwarves or dragons or magic. Lands of Lore, for example. Slight customization of character in the first one (had 3 to pick from), the rules system was pretty good combat wise, but it really was point a-b-c, and the characters you could pick from weren't all that personality wise.

A good RPG based on a book series would be Return to Krondor, where the characters look and act like the ones in the book, and it has the same kind of feel, and while the story is still linear, there are enough puzzles and bits, pieces and Easter eggs for those who know the books to enough and those who haven't read the books to want to pick up. The characters encountered are personable too, and there are small quests where you feel like you're making a difference.

[Lumikki]

Yeah, but pre-define character and linear story aren't usually anymore consider RPG, but adventure game.