262 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

Realmzmaster wrote...

 If the rogue is allowed wear any armor there should be a penalty to the ability to go into stealth. Full plate armor is not as slient as leather or studded leather. Also if wearing metal gauntlets the lockpicing or pickpocketing skill is affected unless the rogue removes the guantlets. If a game is going to use classes then penalties should  apply when a character wants to use skills of another class.

You could have a system where use determines the class like the Dungeon Siege I & II or the TES games. In Dungeon Siege if you use melee weapons the most your rank changed from squire to grand champion. If you use ranged weapons more you went from bowyer to Grandmaster sharpshooter. If you used nature magic more you rank changed from apprentice to archmage. If combat magic rank was from savant to Grand High Sorcerer. Depending on what combat mode you use the most your rank changed. So you could dabble in all the modes and specialize in one. But your had to meet the attribute requirements to wear certain armor

I have no problem with that.  But it seems that the way things are being done latel, no one is looking for any kind of compromise, it's just get rid ot it and call it a day.

[Dragoonlordz]

Thats the thing with Bioware they really struggle to get the mouth and teeth right in heir games big time imho. I have had far too often clipping and god awefull animation as far as the mouth goes. By accident Aaleel has just shown it's still a problem in DA2. Add to that the nasty hair as in looks plastic popped on Bioware still need to improve imho with regards to faces.

[Sad Dragon]

First things first.

1. LA Noire runied every other game out there in terms of facial animations for me -- Yes its really that good (sadly makes the characters get some uncanny valley symptoms at times, but the animations are solid)

2. @Aaleel: First pic not to flattering, not your fault though, engin problem. Second Pic shows you achieved something I have yet to do: A custom face that doesn't look horrid (Though I still like my custom Shep to the original).

3. I will try to keep this sort.

While the topic isn't really a discussion topic as much as an observation that tastes differ. I have now read through the whole thing and can say that there have been some good points of discussion within the thread.

Now I have not yet played through TW2 so I can not offer any real insights more then as to what I have played -- I'm more or less at the end of Act 1 -- but I thought I would add my own voice to the thread, so here goes.

Personally I like what CDPR did with TW2 -- but as has been pointed out here DA2 did to something amazing as well. CDPR shows us what choices in an RPG really means -- I have to say the sword thing that has been talked about makes you really feel like you should consider how you play as even small things that might look inconsequencial on the surface will change the world around you.

DA2 however shows us how an RPG could be made in terms of giving your character personality. Now I do not think that DA2's personality system was perfect, far from. The personalities did not take into account who your where talking to and that you might want to act differently depending on who your spoke to, the fact that things like bluff, persuasion and intimidation tied into the system did not help either. Still a step forward for RPGs.

BioWare in themselves have a greater opportunity then CDPR though when it comes to future installments. For while I can see BW incorporating choice into their games in the future I can not see a Witcher game without Geralt -- Now I don't really mind RPing Geralt for a verity of reasons, which I will not list here as to not use up space.

I think however it is safe to say that everyone can stand to learn from what the games actually did good, and build on it in the future.

Thats all.

Typos are brought to you by:
- The Sad Dragon

[Schamino]

neppakyo wrote...

Doesn't sound like you actually played the Witcher 2(TW2 is the game being compared to DA2, not TW1). And unless your son is over 17, he shouldnt be playing that game, if he is under 17, then you're a horrible parent. ^-^

I am agree with you. I have just started to play The Witcher and I must say It's not a game for children. Both cinematics and language is adult related at times.

Though I have just started to play the game, I got to say there are many reasons it can not be compared with DAO or DAII. Boring hmm maybe, but good graphics and story has it's potensial. I will give it a try.

[blakskyz]

played witcher 2 for about 2 hours..couldn't play it anymore. graphics are nice, but omg..the VA is crap. So monotone and boring.

I'll wait on Skyrim, ME3 and Kingdoms of Amalur. Saw trailers/demo on E3 and looks freaking awesome. TOR might be a viable option, but don't care for MMORPG's.

[Chromie]

Morroian wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Nope not even. Bioware's game look very bland. Maybe it's L.A Noire after playing that all facial tech just seems flat and lifeless compared to it.

You would have to say that about every other game apart from LA Noire though. DA2 does facial animation the best of any game I've played (obviously I haven't played LA Noire).

Even if you haven't played L.A Noire then I would say that statement is..sad : /

[DragonRageGT]

blakskyz wrote...

played witcher 2 for about 2 hours..couldn't play it anymore. graphics are nice, but omg..the VA is crap. So monotone and boring.

I'll wait on Skyrim, ME3 and Kingdoms of Amalur. Saw trailers/demo on E3 and looks freaking awesome. TOR might be a viable option, but don't care for MMORPG's.

This is like watching Fringe and people from the other side...  VA is crap? Really? EVen with so many BW featured voice actors in The Witcher? The game is fraking amazing and the VA is awesome. Facial expression, I can give you that, are not par with BW's but that doesn't make the slighest difference given the grandeur of the game

I can actually detect lots of influence from Bioware on CDProjekt, not only the Aurora engine on the first Witcher but some stuff on TW2. If you ask me, there has been some consulting. On the other hand, BW could use some of their consulting too.

I had some 20 runs with Origins and there will be more... 5 with DA2 and there will be no more... I'm on my 5th run thru TW2 and I can't wait to finish this to go back to TW1 and do a full witcher run! (Like I  do with ME/ME2 every now and then). Boring? Play it on Insane and stay alive... if you can! Yes, I can!

[bossk-office]

I am agree with you. I have just started to play The Witcher and I must say It's not a game for children. Both cinematics and language is adult related at times.

I would call it adolescent related rather than adult related. Would have loved to play that game when I was 14! Today, as an adult, not so much.

[Lumikki]

Sad Dragon wrote...

CDPR shows us what choices in an RPG really means -- I have to say the sword thing that has been talked about makes you really feel like you should consider how you play as even small things that might look inconsequencial on the surface will change the world around you.

Yes, I agree, but here comes the big but, CDPR choise only ably in STORY choises, because other ways it does the opposite, it doesn't really give any other choises for players character it self. Okey I take one example from both TW1 and TW2 prologue or chapter I.

In TW1 when you talk in the inn owner in beging of chapter I, how does Gerald talk? Basicly Gearld takes threatening attitudeas, as intimidate fear to target. There was no other choise to player at all. Who sayed I want my Geralt behave like that? Player had no choise in attitude how to treat others or choose the behavior.

In TW2 when you play prologue in first prologue you wake up next to Triss? WTF? Who sayed anything me wanting to have relation or sex with Triss? Game default assumes again how Geralt behave in situation.

My point is that while TW series game allows make story related choises as how it goes, what is really great. TW series games doesn't allow player to play any other kind of Geralt than developers pre-define attitute and behavior Geralt. I'm not talking appereance customation, or gender or even class as combat gameplay choises. I'm actually talking to have personality and behavior choise. Is this little too hard to judge, I mean there is also choises in how to behave. Sure, there is, but only when it fits for developers.

DA2 however shows us how an RPG could be made in terms of giving your character personality. Now I do not think that DA2's personality system was perfect, far from. The personalities did not take into account who your where talking to and that you might want to act differently depending on who your spoke to, the fact that things like bluff, persuasion and intimidation tied into the system did not help either. Still a step forward for RPGs.

Yeah, while DA2 may fail in choises in story, it still allows players to choose they character behavior and attitude. DA2's problem is in consequences, as there is none. You can play you charcater how you like, but it doesn't mean anything after. That's DA2's problem.

panchamkauns wrote...

I am agree with you. I have just started to play The Witcher and I must say It's not a game for children. Both cinematics and language is adult related at times.

I would call it adolescent related rather than adult related. Would have loved to play that game when I was 14! Today, as an adult, not so much.

Yeah, that's actually really funny. How important for some people is that content is more adult. When you self  become mature adult, then adult stuff has very little meaning to us. Meaning while we still enjoy adult mature  behavior, we don't any more like when it's over done just for make something feel more like adult content. It's little like some teen agers trying to prove that they are mature and can handle it. We real adults don't anymore care about that sameways. I think we more adult people like our content more calmer, not childish or too adult.

In my opinion TW content is little dark, what is fine. Trying little too much to be adult, but doens't over do it yet, maybe little bit, but not much. So, I think TW is fine. Little too dark for me, but that's personal taste.

DA2 how ever, is over doing it in direction of childish. it's like Bioware tries to do "cool" factor, but over does it. Cool isn't cool, if it's common.

Modifié par Lumikki, 09 juin 2011 - 06:15 .

[Nohvarr]

My main problem wit the Witcher 2 is lack of character custmoization, and the being forced to take potions outside of a fight. It's gorgeous and has a number of things going for it, but those two things really drag it down. Plus it's not particiularly interested in telling you how to do things, and Geralt isn't the most responsive of characters. I've hit the attack button and watched Geralt stare at me as if I were stupid, when I had the sword out and ready to rock. I've gotten into fights with monsters that I had potions for, but hadn't know the fight was coming and was thus stuck.

Also, there's no one in the game I really like, everyone has at least one flaw that makes me want to sock them in the mouth.

[CloudOfShadows]

I really don't know.

Who actually says TW2 is an RPG? It's more of an action adventure. And as to choices with consequences, only really one stands out. Most annoying to me where to QTEs. As if the combat system alone didn't scream "action" in TW2.

And as to mature content? Uh, using swear words and showing explicit stuff is mature? Ahem. I actually think that DA2 had some way more mature choices in it than TW2. E. g. how to treat that deranged son of a magistrate, for example. That's something I wouldn't want a child to handle.

DA2 is so even better after having given TW2 a twirl.

Modifié par CloudOfShadows, 09 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[Tirfan]

CloudOfShadows wrote...

I really don't know.

Who actually says TW2 is an RPG? It's more of an action adventure. And as to choices with consequences, only really one stands out. Most annoying to me where to QTEs. As if the combat system alone didn't scream "action" in TW2.

And as to mature content? Uh, using swear words and showing explicit stuff is mature? Ahem. I actually think that DA2 had some way more mature choices in it than TW2. E. g. how to treat that deranged son of a magistrate, for example. That's something I wouldn't want a child to handle.

DA2 is so even better after having given TW2 a twirl.

I felt TW2 to be far more an RPG, While Geralt isn't my character, I could get better into playing him than Hawke.
Please, define RPG. Combat wise - Both DA2 and TW2 are action rpg:s to me - TW2 just handles the roleplaying aspect far better, as it did the combat, even though I could tell from the first combat sequence in TW2 that I'm going to suck at it, it was oddly addictive.

Roleplaying game to me is a game where you play a role, a character, you can add various descriptions to this general definition, like action rpg, classical rpg or PnP-rpg.

[CloudOfShadows]

Roleplaying for me means that I can actually influence the character development. In TW2 that seemed to be limited to choosing which of the three paths I went. And combat wise? I didn't like TW2 at all.

In DA2 I never had the impression that I was playing an action game. I didn't have to aim my attacks, I selected a target and told my fighter/rogue/mage to blast it away. I didn't have to click for every single sword swing. Urgh.

I forgave TW1 the crappy combat because of the story, but honestly? The story in TW2 just lacks - it's nearly told as heartless as Drakensang games. And those are actually pretty good RPGs with tactical combat - much like DA:O, BG series, etc. Just lack in story telling.

Modifié par CloudOfShadows, 09 juin 2011 - 07:30 .

[Tirfan]

It really seems like we didn't even play the same games. Personal differences I suppose, And yeah, I wasn't exactly the greatest fan of TW2 combat, but I enjoyed it to some extent, while I despaired at the fact how much I sucked at it. No such feelings for me about DA2 combat, I just felt like playing an action-rpg where I smashed the number-buttons instead of left-clicking with the mouse.

Modifié par Tirfan, 09 juin 2011 - 07:38 .

[CloudOfShadows]

... well, if stories are important to you, I can suggest a few good books.

[Tirfan]

Go ahead, I have already surpassed the critical mass in books (really, I have no space where to put my books anymore, I have a couple boxes full of them in my wardrobe and under the bed and just about everywhere except the fridge) so a couple more can't hurt anymore.

and  to continue a bit; I have been planning on doing another run on TW2, I will consider what you said about it, and perhaps compare it a bit more with DA2, the first time I played TW2 I just wanted to forget the horrifying experience DA2 was for me.

Modifié par Tirfan, 09 juin 2011 - 07:44 .

[ozenglish]

Just decided to delete the post, no matter how many times I wrote that.. it didn't sound right.

What I am trying to say, if a parent actually interacts with their kid while the kid is gaming, then you should generally be able to address any concerns violence and language has in regards to context. 

Being an adult, and having watched classical Disney films, when my kids watched them, I made sure that I sat with them in case they had questions, those stories are not for little kids. Yet they are touted for them.

SO, unless you are willing to invest your parenting time into your children, sure, let a 17 yo play an adult game, and parent them. If you are going to let the console/pc parent your children, then no. You should go to counselling and learn a new skill. 

So kudo's to the dad letting his kid play it, and actually (I presume) interacting with the kid while playing. My parents let me play Leisure suit larry as a kid, and dad actually kicked me off so he could play it.

Modifié par ozenglish, 09 juin 2011 - 09:02 .

[Cyberarmy]

CloudOfShadows wrote...

I really don't know.

Who actually says TW2 is an RPG? It's more of an action adventure..

You really don't know.

And i am actually saying The Witcher 2 is an excellent  RPG. And Dragon Age 2 is a medicore Hack&slash.

[Firefeng]

I've played The Witcher 2 for the first 15 minutes. After those 15 minutes, I'm holding off on continuing until I get a graphics card that can play the game at decent settings, but those first 15 minutes is an annoyance of clunky combat that will probably color my perception of the game throughout my eventual playthrough.

If you all really want to see an RPG trying and failing to mimic an action-combat game, The Witcher 2 qualifies far more than Dragon Age 2. Now, if TW2 had DA2's combat system (note to the selectively illiterate: I emphasized "system", and did not say "encounters" or "animations" or anything else), I might be more inclined to jump back into it whenever my computer can run it decently at 1920x1080 resolution. It's not nearly as fun a battle system as even PS:T...

Cue the eventual responses involving steep learning curves and whatnot attempting to rebut my opinion.

And Dragon Age 2 is a medicore [sic] Hack&slash.

Diablo 2=Hack&slash.  Baldur's Gate 2: Dark Alliance = Hack&slash.  Heroes of Might & Magic (on the consoles, at least) = Hack&slash.  The Witcher 2 = Hack&slash.  Hunter: The Reckoning = Hack&slash (of sorts).  Hack&slash ≠ PC DA2 (although console DA2 would certainly apply, given its lack of autoattacking).  


Really.  Hack&slash refers to a battle system, not a particular genre of game...

Modifié par Firefeng, 10 juin 2011 - 01:32 .

[Tirfan]

Cyberarmy wrote...

CloudOfShadows wrote...

I really don't know.

Who actually says TW2 is an RPG? It's more of an action adventure..

You really don't know.

And i am actually saying The Witcher 2 is an excellent  RPG. And Dragon Age 2 is a medicore Hack&slash.

Cyberarmy - read the conversation between me and CloudOfShafows that ensued from the post you quoted. I can understand his position on that matter really well, it is based on personal experience & the way he defines an RPG which is a bit different from mine. I agree with you on TW2 being a excellent rpg but I would go as far as to say that DA2 was a horrible action game with some rpg-elements.

[Firefeng]

Tirfan wrote...

Cyberarmy wrote...

CloudOfShadows wrote...

I really don't know.

Who actually says TW2 is an RPG? It's more of an action adventure..

You really don't know.

And i am actually saying The Witcher 2 is an excellent  RPG. And Dragon Age 2 is a medicore Hack&slash.

Cyberarmy - read the conversation between me and CloudOfShafows that ensued from the post you quoted. I can understand his position on that matter really well, it is based on personal experience & the way he defines an RPG which is a bit different from mine. I agree with you on TW2 being a excellent rpg but I would go as far as to say that DA2 was a horrible action game with some rpg-elements.

And having played countless games of different genres, I would have to argue that DA2 was an RPG that faltered on the RPG aspects a bit, and that the only relation DA2 had to action games was the general responsiveness of the user input.  To use a different approach, ME2 was far more analagous to a shooter game than DA2 was to an action game.  Even some PS1 JRPGs contain far more of an action game aesthetic than DA2 (Valkyrie Profile, I'm lookin' at you).  You may count it as a failure of action elements in DA2; I'm far more inclined to ignore perceived action elements in DA2, of which their are next to none besides more tactile response to user input compared to DA:O.

Now, if DA2 had The Witcher 2's dodge key, quick time events, and combo attacks based upon user input?  Then, maybe, I could agree...but it doesn't.  The closest it comes is time-based cross class combos, which have been around in RPGs for well over a decade.

[Tirfan]

Well, I don't play games from countless different genres, at least not anymore, as I played DA2, to me it just felt like a bit overcomplicated action game, as I really just felt that I was smashing the number keys and occasionally picking a new target. Whereas, of course, in a more classical action game I probably would be smashing the left/right mouse button but still, It is the feeling of the game.

[Firefeng]

Tirfan wrote...

Well, I don't play games from countless different genres, at least not anymore, as I played DA2, to me it just felt like a bit overcomplicated action game, as I really just felt that I was smashing the number keys and occasionally picking a new target. Whereas, of course, in a more classical action game I probably would be smashing the left/right mouse button but still, It is the feeling of the game.

Your conclusions are understandable, then, even though I don't agree with them.  Granted, I've got a ton of console-oriented action games under my belt to which I can compare DA2.  The closest DA2 comes to an "action" game is with its console versions (mostly because they lacked an auto-attack, and thus required repetitive tactile interaction), and even then it bore more comparison to hack & slash games on consoles than it did with "proper" action games like Ninja Gaiden, DMC3, and God of War.  I'll reiterate again that TW2's basic combat interaction bore far more resemblance to action games (most notably, God of War, although the gameplay mechanics between the two are still quite a stretch) than did Dragon Age 2.  DA2 is still an RPG at heart, at least from my experiences.  TW2's customizability and usage of traps and spells did add quite a bit of depth, but ultimately it was still hack & slash game, very similar to Diablo 2 even if its presentation suggested otherwise--and, really, I'd go so far as to say that it lacked the depth of even Diablo 2, insofar as skill progression is concerned, given its limited combat choices.  

Then again, I realize most people laud TW2 on these forums for its excellently executed world and plot decisions, something lacking in both DA2 and my aforementioned action game examples.

Modifié par Firefeng, 10 juin 2011 - 02:54 .

[Tirfan]

Glad to know we can agree to disagree - perhaps if I played those "proper" action games I would change my view to what one can only speculate, perhaps I would call DA2 just another hack & slash game then. I just can't see DA2 as a classical RPG game, even at heart, perhaps I'm stuck too much in the Baldur's Gate era - as even Origins was so streamlined from those (which really was a good thing) that it took a while to get used it, but I found that Origins offered, at least to me, rather the perfect combination of rather simple combat where you still actually could employ tactics, even if this more in line of evaluating which of the mobs were the biggest threat and deciding how to deal with it.

I just can't find any of that in DA2, and I am quite sad about it, mostly because I truly felt that Origins was a game specifically designed to me and was hoping to get the same experience with the sequel.

TW2, as you have pointed out, is further away from those classical RPG:s, but the main thing that makes TW2 great for me is that I actually can get into Geralt as a character, and as I mentioned, I suck at the combat in TW2, but it is oddly addictive for some reason, perhaps I will soon be playing the God of War series.

[erynnar]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Good post Shantisands.

Talking with Persepone about this refined my view on the game. I do think DA2 did improve somewhat over Origins vis-a-vis relations with companions (I just find them less interesting than those in Origins, but I digress). And they do somewhat react to what he says and does (though I still believe it's marginal and could have been more). But it's a combination of other things, including like you said, an unchanging and unresponsive world / setting, lack of any real influence which stands in contrast to the mass murders we keep perpetrating (and for me at least, just bad writing in general that lacks nuance and complexity), that seriously harm the game imo.

That said, DA2 did take a few steps in the right direction. Not enough for me to feel that my 60$ were justifiably wasted, but what can you do.

And this for me too! I agree with you and Ali and Shan.