1022 réponses à ce sujet

[Shimmer_Gloom]

nremies1 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

They still train infantry soldiers in hand-to-hand combat both with knives and without. I believe Marines also use a technique to stab an unaware between the ribs to collapse one of their lungs and prevent the target from making too much noise. Shooting people isn't always feasible, for a variety of reasons. Guns are loud, and bullets usually kill people, and you don't always want to kill somebody, etc.

You have both the rifle-butt and the omni-blade in ME3, as far as I'm aware. Besides, Rule of Cool.

Homophobic aversions to stabbing based on theoretically psychobabble are entirely irrelevant.

First: stab between the ribs to collapse a lung?  If you are hellbent on stabbing somebody who is unaware, you're going for the kidney.  Intense pain paralyses the victim and he dies quickly and quietly.  Collapsed lung or not, there's nothing stopping the vic from screaming his head off, nevermind the fact that's not a fatal wound.  And if you're trying to subdue a guy without killing him, you're not chasing after him with a knife to stick him.  Rifle butt + zip ties = subdued hostile that you don't have to have a medic patch up because you STABBED him.

Second: rule of cool?  That's it in a nutshell.  It's cool, flashy, and over the top, so let's do it.  Makes no sense?  Who cares?  The John Woo fans will totally dig it.

Third: all the study of this stuff points to the fact that soldiers don't stab one another.  That point is made in response to people laboring under this Hollywood notion that knives are used frequently in combat.  They're not, and that's why.  Go ahead and read the compiled results of years of study on armed combat before dimissing it as "theoretically psychobabble."

They also have this magical bit of technology called a suppressor that - ready for this? - makes your shots harder to hear.  They're fairly handy and I hear all those "Special Operations" dudes are well-funded enough to have them.  Actually, wait, they're pretty much the standard "get in and get out quietly" accessory these days.

Okay you obviously are familiar with military stuff... but ...

Here.  I just googled "do soldiers use knives" and this is the first entry.  Its a forum post about "Green Berets top 5 combat knives"  Combat knives!  Did you hear that?  KNIFE THAT IS USED IN COMBAT.

It happens.  As to where you stab somebody, I have read the best place is the spine.  In the neck or back.  If in the neck it takes out the nervous system and there is no 'screaming.'  Just silent death.  I have even heard special ops soldiers would 'blunt' the point so that it would not 'get stuck in bone.'  A quick, silent stab.

Knives are still used in combat.  Do they use it like Shepard does in ME3?  No.  But Shep has a Omni-bldae which is more like a pickaxe was in the midevil ages... ie something to cut through armor.

[Schneidend]

iakus wrote...

Superior?  Debatable.  But I propose that it's easier, more realistic given the technology we've seen, and let's face it, it would look cool too[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Glad we can agree on that much. =)

What I was getting at is I assumed the drone coloring was a game mechanic, not that the drone literally took on that color.  Because enemies could have combat drones as well, and there was a chance the player could accidentally try to destroy a friendly drone.  A blade in Shepard's hand has no logical reason to be color coded.

The point being, why should the blade look like a hologram, when it's solid?  The orange on the omnitool is a holographic display.  Logically, the blade should look like, well, a blade in Shepard's hand, perhaps with the omnitool display running at the same time.  Instead it looks like Shepard should be saying "In Brightest Day, in Blackest Night" while the blade's being called up.

Like I said, aesthetic consistency. That's part of the whole looking cool thing.

Makes sense for a complex item, I guess.  But a blade has no moving parts.

It does if its a vibro-blade or a non-Newtonian fluid being kept solid by sonic resonance. Something has to generate the sonic pulse, and that something has a power source.

I really, really hope it's the former.  I really do.

I am indifferent. This is a sci-fi game, and therefore any of the methods I've described are equally plausible in-universe.

nremies1 wrote...

Second: rule of cool?  That's it in a nutshell.  It's cool, flashy, and over the top, so let's do it.  Makes no sense?  Who cares?  The John Woo fans will totally dig it.

"Who cares" indeed? Tropes are not inherently bad. There's plenty of in-universe explanations available for the omni-blade, it is cool, and it looks like a fun gameplay element. Bonus points if it can be upgraded or switched out for different kinds of blades entirely. Your concerns about how macho, macho men do or do not kill each other are rather inconsequential in the face of Lore, Awesomeness, and Gameplay, which are all that have ever mattered about a game.

[Sidney]

nremies1 wrote...
Third: all the study of this stuff points to the fact that soldiers don't stab one another.  That point is made in response to people laboring under this Hollywood notion that knives are used frequently in combat.  They're not, and that's why.  Go ahead and read the compiled results of years of study on armed combat before dimissing it as "theoretically psychobabble."

They also have this magical bit of technology called a suppressor that - ready for this? - makes your shots harder to hear.  They're fairly handy and I hear all those "Special Operations" dudes are well-funded enough to have them.  Actually, wait, they're pretty much the standard "get in and get out quietly" accessory these days.

Studies of combat say that only about 1 in 10 men actually fires a weapon in anger either but we're not simulating that. In the end, melee combat did happen and does still - read House to House for an example of up close and personal work in the Iraqi War for example.  The Marines on Guadalcancal enaged in hand to hand, the Germans and Soviets also did at Stalingrad. It happens but it is really rare still there is a reason that hand to hand combat is caught and men are issued knives.

Suppressors also really don't do what the movies show them to do. They don't sound like a caught, just a slightly less loud gunshot.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

@Sidney: from literature I have read (fiction and non-fiction) plus that one episode of Mythbusters where they tested movie sounds to real life sounds...

Suppressors work almost exactly like they do in the movies (the movie version sounds slightly meatier and has more texture but it is damn close). Just an fyi.

But yeah. Military issues combat knifes for a reason. Also, nobody (but me) has talked about the nature of combat in Mass Effect. Kinetic barriers need to be considered. They deflect bullets. If you have a weapon (Omni-blade) that cuts through them in one blow... it would be VERY useful indeed.

[ChristianSoldier]

I prefer a real futuristic rambo blade on a soldier and the infiltrator. Engineers and sentinels use omni blades, and vanguards and adepts use biotic smash.(In ME2 samara did those moves alot.)

[Sidney]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Sidney: from literature I have read (fiction and non-fiction) plus that one episode of Mythbusters where they tested movie sounds to real life sounds....

I've been around them in real life, trust me. They muffle at best but there's still a sharp sound -- you don't get that nice thhhhpt sound you get in the movies that can't be heard 10 feet away.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Sidney wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Sidney: from literature I have read (fiction and non-fiction) plus that one episode of Mythbusters where they tested movie sounds to real life sounds....

I've been around them in real life, trust me. They muffle at best but there's still a sharp sound -- you don't get that nice thhhhpt sound you get in the movies that can't be heard 10 feet away.

Well you can still hear them fairly well in the movies too.  From what I have read them just dampen the sound (so it is not heard as well from miles away) and they make it less charictaristically "gunshot" sounding.  And Mythbusters and the movies (the good ones at least) seem to varify that.

I don't think anyone thinks that you could fire it and not have it be heard from ten feet away...

But yeah.  I don't have any first hand experience.

[Iakus]

Schneidend wrote...

I am indifferent. This is a sci-fi game, and therefore any of the methods I've described are equally plausible in-universe.

What you've described has potential, but not the "hard light" thing.  And I still think a "real" blade would work at least as well with less explanation needed.

Awesomeness is fine, to a certain degree.  But it can be overdone.  Just look at DA2 

[LonewolfXIII]

If Sentinals could make kinetic body armor whats so far-fetched about a kinetic blade? Im lost as to what all the screams about retcon are for

[Iakus]

LonewolfXIII wrote...

If Sentinals could make kinetic body armor whats so far-fetched about a kinetic blade? Im lost as to what all the screams about retcon are for

Because I always saw the tech armor as a specialized shield boost, not as a physical armor.  

The blade we've seen takes on the appearance at least of a hologram.  Nothing but an image that somehow does damage.

[Destroy Raiden_]

It looks neat and when the blade comes out it screams, " I'm gonna give you pain," but it seems its a stab only weapon and therefor prone to miss if the enemy moves just a hair over. I hope its a stab and slash combo type that tracks enemy movements so if they try to get away I'm not left open for their bullets.

[Kileyan]

Sidney wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Sidney: from literature I have read (fiction and non-fiction) plus that one episode of Mythbusters where they tested movie sounds to real life sounds....

I've been around them in real life, trust me. They muffle at best but there's still a sharp sound -- you don't get that nice thhhhpt sound you get in the movies that can't be heard 10 feet away.

First, in this game the workings of a silencer would not represent anything we know. There is no gunpowder explosion to muffle. In a much higher tech world they'd likely be using something nifty like counteracting the guns mechanism noise with opposite sound waves or whatever:)

As for real life, I've been around an mp5 silenced weapon, it is pretty darn muffled, but more of a change to its noise that a total abscense of noise, still much lowered decibels. I'd like to see/hear firsthand that silenced shotgun that was on the Discovery Channel's Sons of Guns. It ins't a pfft noise like in the movies, but it sounds like little more than someone dropping a plastic dvd case on a tile floor, as opposed to a BOOM of a friggin shotgun explosion.

[MrFob]

Didn't read the whole thread and I guess this has been mentioned but stil:
I don't have a big problem with the omni-blade and I don't see how it violates lore. Let's wate fr the codex entry. My guess for now is that it is an extremely thin ME field with effects similar to warp. However, since it is thin, it effectively slices like a knife.
Why the hologram? Simple. The user needs to have visual feedback on where the blade starts and ends to reduce the risk of self-injury. Since night time full fledged stealth is not part of MEs gameplay, there is no reason for Shep to deactivate the hologram either.
As for all the "expert" discussion about tactics that is going on here: This is enough of a reason to have a knife for me .

[Saiphas85]

To all, here from Weekes' twitter an answer to the omni-blade.

http://twitter.com/#%21/patsquinade

"@The_MaDSaM diamond monoblade created from canonically present omni-tool fabrication tech, charged with ME or plasma field?"

[illusive_wolf]

i like it makes the omni tool seem to have more use then it did before my question though is, is it for soldier engineer or sentinel

[joltmajor]

iakus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

joltmajor wrote...

As much as I dislike "energy" objects in scifi given that there really is no "almost-realistic" scientific explanation for it, ME2 did have Tech Armor and those portable barriers the collectors could put up, so an "omni-blade" isnt too far fetched.

The Geth also had those energy barriers, if I recall. 

Tech armor I interpreted as merely a specialized variety of kinetic barriers.  Didn't like the look but meh, I don't play Sentinels.  And even if I did, I'd probably just look at it as an indicated like the ammo icon.

Portable barriers were, I thought, simply portable kinetic barrier projectors.  I can see those.  If you can make them small enough to fit onto an outfit, why not make ones to carry around to "build your own cover"?  

But an energy based melee weapon, especially in a universe which so far hasn't even been able to spit out directed energy weapons, is ridiculous.

Imagine if the Firefly universe suddenly had "tech blades"

think about it like an ultra portable kinetic barrier that you smack people with.

[WizenSlinky0]

I believe they would do well to integrate this into the lore and make the Omni-blade actually play a part in its every day use. Insert blade into every-day security port, and you hack directly from the omnitool (zoom in and play the "fun" little mini-game for the upteenth time...just this time on a shiney glow-y hand tool).

While I highly doubt civilization could manage to replace all their systems with it in such a short amount of time...didn't stop them from getting rid of omni-gel. And Bioware keeps a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor with their choices. Which is good.

Overall I have a willing suspension of disbelief simply because it looks kind of fun. I agree it really doesn't make all too much sense. But I can see where it came from if you use the tech armor as a base.

[Crackseed]

The question I'd ask for all the dissenters about this change is this: Does this addition to gameplay hurt you in anyway possible when you play ME3? The real answer? No. It doesn't affect you. You don't ever have to use it. You can still elbow people or rely completely on ranged abilities to win every single fight. Bioware is just adding more options, more cool and giving players the choices to use them.

The only genuine place they stand to take some flak on is how they choose to explain the in-game application of the Omni-blade via the codex entry. God knows the ammo change alone despite the codex fixes, etc still cause a ruckus to this day though of course ammo DID affect everyone whether they liked it or not >.>

Modifié par crackseed, 07 juin 2011 - 07:53 .

[CannotCompute]

The Omni-blade attack looks awesome imo. Also love the sound it makes when Shep whips it out

Modifié par CannotCompute, 07 juin 2011 - 08:11 .

[Biotic Sage]

CannotCompute wrote...

Also love the sound it makes when Shep whips it out

...........ok, I've gotta go with a "that's what she said" here

[MrGone]

I think the Omni Blade is cool, but it does seem odd on the Soldier class. Seems like something only the Engineer, or possibly the new melee-centric class should get (does that have a name yet? Basher? Fighter? Closer? What?).

I mean it does make sense that if engineers can make hard-light armor that they can make a hard light blade. OK I'm with you there.

But a soldier does seem to be the type to go for more of the vibro-knife.

But maybe the Infiltrator gets that?

The blade is cool, just maybe not for that class.

Unless . . . the Omni-Blade might be one of the weaker melee weapons. I mean, it's light, so it might be easily countered (barriers should be able to diffuse light I'd think) and the REALLY cool knives, swords, batons etc will be reserved for other classes may?

I dunno, too early to tell.

[Biotic Sage]

MrGone wrote...

I think the Omni Blade is cool, but it does seem odd on the Soldier class. Seems like something only the Engineer, or possibly the new melee-centric class should get (does that have a name yet? Basher? Fighter? Closer? What?).

There is no "melee-centric class," that was a misconstrued piece of information that Christina Norman already corrected via Twitter.  There are the same six classes as there always have been.

Edit: I agree with you though about it seeming odd on a soldier.  However, it is consistent with the soldier favoritism that goes on with Mass Effect marketing.  Think of something cool, give it to the soldier.  It WOULD make much more sense given to omni-tool specialists (engineers, infiltrators, or sentinels; personally, I would go with infiltrator because they are the most assassin-like class).

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 07 juin 2011 - 08:22 .

[SSV Enterprise]

I think it's cool. A neat way to weaponize kinetic barriers.

[ForumPortal]

I don't get how a holographic sword supposed to kill you? It's just a 3D image of a sword so it would just go right through you

[Tripedius]

Looks like one of the rpg elements Bioware put in is a 'sword'. Maybe they want the medieval rpg crowd to like ME too? Also who didn't laugh their pants of at the 'robot dog' you get from the CE? More catering to the DA crowd me thinks

But seriously it kind of looks silly, esp the pose at the end of the new trailer. It also makes me wonder if ME will be controlable on the PC as with melee, roll, cover, run, jump, ,move companion 1 & 2 and the 4 move keys thats a lot of buttons which a controller has but you can't use that on a pc.