411 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

Bad King wrote...

I doubt Kahoku got it wrong- his info was mostly bought from the Shadow Broker who has a reputation for providing top quality info. Besides that there are other clues in the game- Dr. Wayne, one of the scientists responsible for Akuze was an Alliance scientist (confirmed by Hackett)- of course Akuze occurred before the split, so it was an Alliance project. As for the codex getting it wrong, that makes perfect sense- the primary codex tends to reveal information only known to the public (there's a lot of false info regarding the protheans and reapers etc). The Alliance have been working hard to cover up their ties to Cerberus- if the public discovered that Cerberus was once part of the Alliance, it would be a scandal, and there would certainly be a backlash against the Alliance. So better to claim that Cerberus has always been an independent terrorist organisation than a secret department of the Alliance that went rogue.

Now for a bit of speculation!

My theory is that there is no retcon and that after TIM founded Cerberus, he merged the small organisation with the Alliance. Under the Alliance the group grew, and by ME1, TIM decided to split with the Alliance in order to give Cerberus more independence- this would allow them to be regulated less by the Alliance which in turn would allow them to make better preperations against the Collectors/Reapers due to increased freedom. With their newly gained freedom hey started the super soldier projects to create shocktroopers (Thorian Creepers and Rachni) to aid humanity in the coming conflict with the reapers. The chief operative in charge of this was Armistan Banes who faked his own death to escape the Alliance and blackmailed Dr. Chloe Michel for supplies for the project. When Kahoku investigated, Banes made sure that a fake body was left. However Banes was afraid that the conspiracy would still be revealed by Kahoku's marines and so lured them into a Thresher maw nest, and later killed Kahoku in order to cover up the projects.

Ah yes, Dr. Wayne. I had totally forgotten about him. Thanks for the reminder.
I have to say though that the codex is kinda selective as to when it gives public information and when it doesn't. Example, Indoctrination has its own codex entry, but is not public knowledge. The Cerberus entry could indeed be just public information or still a retcon. We can't know for sure, because like I said, the Codex is selective.

Now about your theory. I was wondering, why would the Alliance, a public and governmental body and the face of humanity to the galaxy, agree to merge with Cerberus, a private organization?

[Phaedon]

Concerning the Kahoku thing, you can either retcon it by justifying that the Shadow Broker was wrong or was feeding fake info to Kahoku, or you can say that the initial Cerberus was indeed a black ops group that broke off the Alliance.

2185/6's Cerberus can't possibly be just that, they also have a politicoeconomic cell. Besides, their casualty rates are high. How many of the original cell survived? Or, you can go as far and say that by black ops group, they mean Core, Hislop and Harper.

Think about it. They worked by the Alliance as "specialists". Not "mercenaries" or "soldiers". Plus, if you combine that last two theories, TIM could have started Cerberus by rounding up the rest of the "specialists".

Modifié par Phaedon, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:29 .

[HTTP 404]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Subtle influence? Is that what you call jumping from shuttles with custom paintjob using jetpacks, extravagant armour and shooting up the place?

Don't forget the fifteen tall mech they drop from a high altitude that also starts to shoot up the place.

they are obviously space plumbers

[AesirMan]

I still wonder why someone would want to go back to the Alliance after they slandered your name and then made you a recruitment icon and finally the council knowing of the reapers (the salarians) and they still won't back you in ME1 and 2. Sorry but the one thing Shepard says "Don't Disrespect the dead" in the interview paragon/renegade both. I think Rupert Gardner the mess sergeant summed it up very well. As NCO's can say it how it is when asked. "The Council and The Alliance have their heads shoved so far up their butt puckers..."

I Just hope that Cerberus isn't the end all be all enemy and they still allow shades of grey.

[AesirMan]

And is the Council or Alliance stepping up to the plate? No.
Is Cerberus trying to step up to the plate? Yes. (Overlord is a big step up as the geth can then be made to leave Humans alone) No more Eden Primes....
Like I said before... I trust TIM MORE yes MORE than before because I realize that he is willing to do what is necessary and SACRIFICE. A person unwilling to make sacrifices is NOT the sort of hero we need when it comes to fight against Galactic Genocide. Someone unable to make the tough calls that stomp on the happiness of a few to save the many even if the call is immoral is not the hero we need when it comes to fight against GG. The one we do NEED are those that are willing to pull the trigger when it can be morally grey. Cerberus is morally grey and they are a fine renegade choice to join. Because Cerberus DOES the things that are necessary.

And before one gets all hollier than thou attitude Cerberus has and does still things to advance humanity. They do the hard stuff the immoral research and once the immoral stuff are done it gets passed onto the Alliance and well in a year or so low and behold The Alliance has a breakthrough... and the Alliances hands are "clean"


Kaiden wouldn't be a sentinel.... shepard... couldn't be an adept, sentinel or vanguard if it was NOT for Cerberus. Jacob wouldn't be a vanguard. Jack would have been just a lil brat kid. That is because we owe biotic potential to TIM. Why?? Because he allowed that sacrifice to take place. He knew that for humanity to flourish we needed biotics and well

Just of Note Cerberus poisoned Colonies with E-Zero and many died a few actually became full fledged biotics. Others had birth defects and other maladies. But because of that scientists could isolate genes and start manipulating and finding those with biotic talent. Crude yes. Efficient Yes. Cold Hearted Yes. Necessary Yes. Renegade Yes. Did it help humanity as a whole Yes.

Did the Alliance in a few years have biotics Yes.

If someone sends me on a suicide mission and they tell me its a suicide mission but its to save the earth... I'd probably go... yeah there is a chance to survive and all and if the organization was the ONLY organization that was wanting to represent and help humanity more the better. And the Collector ship scenario. I understand completely; sometimes you can't tell the man on the ground everything as that would ruin the trap that needs to be sprung especially if the enemy underestimates you and you are able to get what you needed.

I think people don't actually RP when they think about their characters and instead portray shepard in a very linear line.

Like a Ruthless Colonist. I could see that because his family and friends were murdered by Batarian Slavers and that in Torfan he went out of his way to Butcher Batarians that we might have a bit of a racist. While a Survivor would have a totally different outlook on life.

[alperez]

Aesir

The problem with your line of thinking is that because it makes sense to you that you should work with cerberus you ignore the fact that to others it makes no sense whatsoever. Its this line of thinking that blinds you to the truths you disagree with and instead of questioning the methods and motivations of cerberus you continue to make excuses for them.

Your justifications are based on the premise that I like Cerberus, I agree with what they've done and what they stand for therefore i am right and should be given the option to work exclusively with Cerberus despite whatever reason there might be not to. I

There ends justify the means argument that because cerberus did this it led to this misses the simple point that they shouldn't have done it in the first place. Its not a question of because they did the experiments it led to biotics which is helpful but by doing the experiments in the first place it shows what kind of an organisation they are.

In me2 despite whatever reservations people had they had no choice other than to be railroaded into working with cerberus, yes we could get our spectre status back if we had played a certain way but that was it, we could not say no, we had in essence no choice.

So in me3 we may be forced to work with the Alliance/Council and all cerberus fans cry foul because they are not getting their way even though the very same thing happened to non cerberus fans in me2.

The problem is that people who support Cerberus's either idealogically or just because they think they're a badass group never question that idealogy or the methods used to put it forward, for this reason any argument as to why they shouldn't believe or accept anything cerberus says or does as being the complete truth is completely wasted.

I have come to accept that cerberus loyalists aren't interested in any scenario that doesn't allow them to be loyal to cerberus, that no amount of evidence, argument or hints that were thrown their way will allow them to consider cerberus as enemies as anything other than a retcon.

The funny thing is i'm fine with that, that's their choice, even if i personally believe its the wrong one.

[AesirMan]

f you want a challenge and to make a real impact it would be to go against Cerberus being ruthless or not and try to save everyone while stop the GG.

And that goes against what being ruthless is about. Mission first and if it means people die for the many to live... then well sucks to be the ones who died. I will mourn your loss at the end but SACRIFICE being necessary as it was on Virmire. And being cloned and being controlled by Cerberus.... ((which I doubt they'd do... but ok...)) Is any different than being a pawn and a yes man to the council?

[AesirMan]

Alp.

The problem is that people who support Cerberus's either idealogically or just because they think they're a badass group never question that idealogy or the methods used to put it forward, for this reason any argument as to why they shouldn't believe or accept anything cerberus says or does as being the complete truth is completely wasted.

The problem is that people who don't support Cerberus either Idealogically or just because they are "evil" group always believe that they can't be of any help and must be eradicated. And no matter what arguement as to why they should believe or accept what Cerberus has to say is wasted. It goes both ways is all I am saying.


I have come to accept that cerberus loyalists aren't interested in any scenario that doesn't allow them to be loyal to cerberus, that no amount of evidence, argument or hints that were thrown their way will allow them to consider cerberus as enemies as anything other than a retcon.

Yes because well Loyalty is something that is prized and rewarded right?? That no amount of helping and believing and working for means that they should just kill off the "rare exceptional piece on the chessboard" To me yes that would be a retcon. You don't kill off billions upon billions of credits when its loyal to you. So yeah that would be a retcon in my book.


In me2 despite whatever reservations people had they had no choice other than to be railroaded into working with cerberus, yes we could get our spectre status back if we had played a certain way but that was it, we could not say no, we had in essence no choice.


You were not railroaded. You were given the morally grey choice... work with this organization as a free agent (paragon that is) and one can screw over Cerberus from the inside. Convert 3 Cerberus Operatives (joker, miranda and Jacob) , their AI and still have an impressive cruiser to boot all while ruining their operations, setting research back and blowing up the collector base. Railroaded hardly... Council won't help you as Cerberus brought you back to life. Alliance is taked to capacity so its the choice... do you save the universe with Cerberus flipping the bill and funding you or do you say "screw you Cerberus and Doom humanity and the universe?

Because we all know that the Council has human interests at heart....




There ends justify the means argument that because cerberus did this it led to this misses the simple point that they shouldn't have done it in the first place. Its not a question of because they did the experiments it led to biotics which is helpful but by doing the experiments in the first place it shows what kind of an organisation they are.

If they didn't do the experiments in the first place... humanity would be that much worse and Sovreign would of succeeded as humanity would have been that much weaker. How much advancements can we attribute to them? Probably a ton as they pass it off to the Alliance shortly after they have it.... strange??

Its the sort of organization that puts human interests first as they did biotic testing to find a way to advance humanity. Project Overlord? Who wants another Geth invasion or Eden Prime?


The problem with your line of thinking is that because it makes sense to you that you should work with cerberus you ignore the fact that to others it makes no sense whatsoever. Its this line of thinking that blinds you to the truths you disagree with and instead of questioning the methods and motivations of cerberus you continue to make excuses for them.

And the same line of thinking that blinds you to the truths that you disagree with instead of knowing that the methods are necessary but you continue to cast them as villains.

Now Do I think Cerberus is Necessary Yes I do. Do I think that they need more Oversight. Yes I do. See where this gets us though... neither side is willing to see the other side as true because we all have different morals and principles and how far are we willing to go.

[Someone With Mass]

AesirMan wrote...

I still wonder why someone would want to go back to the Alliance after they slandered your name and then made you a recruitment icon and finally the council knowing of the reapers (the salarians) and they still won't back you in ME1 and 2. Sorry but the one thing Shepard says "Don't Disrespect the dead" in the interview paragon/renegade both. I think Rupert Gardner the mess sergeant summed it up very well. As NCO's can say it how it is when asked. "The Council and The Alliance have their heads shoved so far up their butt puckers..."

I Just hope that Cerberus isn't the end all be all enemy and they still allow shades of grey.

Yeah, I'd like to hear someone else than them say that.

As for the Alliance, I don't think what they did is that bad. They did the best they could out of Shepard's death. 

And causing public panic because they were informed that the Protheans didn't create the Citadel or the mass relays and that there's a race waiting in dark space to wipe everyone out as they've done for millions of years wouldn't be the best move, so they're just trying to hush it down.

I believe that the Council is doing the same, since their secret groups, like the STG knows about the Reapers. 

By the way. Just because we haven't heard much about them doing anything to combat the enemy doesn't mean they aren't.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:29 .

[AesirMan]

But no e-mail no message from the council saying "Hey we know you are correct and all but we don't want to publically acknowledge instead we are just going to smear your name into the dirt calling you crazy without letting you know we know and agree with you?"  I mean after they know your alive, which is damn quick Since Anderson knew right away... (strange no?)  So why slander when you can work with?

Modifié par AesirMan, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:35 .

[AesirMan]

double post my bad

Modifié par AesirMan, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:34 .

[GreenDragon37]

I never saw Cerberus as the good guys, they were always the bad guys, but had an appealing agenda: make Humanity strong. However, I did not agree with their mehtods or their racist agenda.

I think you should be able to kill the Illusive Man, however, you should have a choice to leave the Cerberus organization intact. Kind of like what Liara did in Lair of the Shadow Broker. She has a chance to change it for her own agenda. Why waste all of those contacts and resources?

[AesirMan]

I have been to say I believe in Cerberus organization being one similar to the STG its necessary but it needs more oversight.

[Someone With Mass]

AesirMan wrote...

But no e-mail no message from the council saying "Hey we know you are correct and all but we don't want to publically acknowledge instead we are just going to smear your name into the dirt calling you crazy without letting you know we know and agree with you?"  I mean after they know your alive, which is damn quick Since Anderson knew right away... (strange no?)  So why slander when you can work with?

Because Shepard is a public figure since the battle of the Citadel. He could be a liability.

[didymos1120]

AesirMan wrote...
  I mean after they know your alive, which is damn quick Since Anderson knew right away... (strange no?)

That was thanks to TIM.  He deliberately leaked rumors of your return and also made sure to link your name with Cerberus while he was at it.

[vallore]

Do we actually know if it is Cerberus - the organization - that is hunting Shepard? Or could that be just a compromised and indoctrinated cell?

[GreenDragon37]

AesirMan wrote...

But no e-mail no message from the council saying "Hey we know you are correct and all but we don't want to publically acknowledge instead we are just going to smear your name into the dirt calling you crazy without letting you know we know and agree with you?"  I mean after they know your alive, which is damn quick Since Anderson knew right away... (strange no?)  So why slander when you can work with?

I always hated that, too. The Council could have told us, privately, that they were looking into the matter. However, there is some evidence that the Salarians are looking into the Reapers. The STG especially. Really, I think BioWare just went about it the wrong way. They wanted to cut you off from everyone so they could hammer in the "you have no choice, Cerberus is all you've got" message. *sigh*

[Praetor Knight]

vallore wrote...





Do we actually know if it is Cerberus - the organization - that is hunting Shepard? Or could that be just a compromised and indoctrinated cell?

Not yet, but there can also be the plausibility that TIM sees the value in having Shepard appear to stand apart from Cerberus.

TIM is not above sacrificing his personnel after all.

[GreenDragon37]

AesirMan wrote...

I have been to say I believe in Cerberus organization being one similar to the STG its necessary but it needs more oversight.

Yes. It should have more government oversight, and be used for actual research and special ops, not propogating an anti-Alien agenda and torturing people with brutal experiments. It makes Humanity look bad.

[AesirMan]

Yes and even public figures can be convinced to hush up for the greater good. Instead of slandering one can just say "Hey we know and believe you please keep it quiet while we don't want to cause panic but we will continue to build our foces." Makes sense to me instead of pissing off the symbol of humanity....

Or like I said I think that Cerberus and Alliance are still linked in some ways... like how Admiral Hackett got on board of a Cerberus vessel? The XO a Cerberus Officer just lets him in... so a "known terrorist" lets an Alliance Officer in? And how did the Alliance seem to know where the "terrorist vessel is?" After it was "jump to anywhere but here?" Sorry there is a link somewhere,

No we don't Vallore, if its a comprimised and indoctrinated cell(s) then thats fine, entire organization is where I call it bs.

[AesirMan]

Aliens see it as anti-aliens while Alliance gives it that name to denounce their special ops for plausible deniability.

[GreenDragon37]

AesirMan wrote...

Aliens see it as anti-aliens while Alliance gives it that name to denounce their special ops for plausible deniability.

Then why does everyone seem to like the STG? They aren't saying anything about "Salarian domination" and hating on Aliens.