411 réponses à ce sujet

[Saaziel]

hhh89 wrote...

Saaziel wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Hell no. He founded Cerberus to stop the Reapers, whenever they'll come.

Someone
told me that some other Bioware game had a quote from Nietzsche. I'm
paraphrasing here but it goes a little something like this - He who
fights monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster himself
. And if you gaze into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.-

Not that I'm a big Nietzsche fan , but its clear some at BW might be, so i wouldn't call trolling on their part.

My
problem isn't that TIM joins the Reapers, or that he becomes a monster.
My problem is that he worked with them since ME. Which I can't neither
understand or accept. Maybe it's not trolling. They could do whatever
they want with their games. But for me, it will be stupid, and I don't
know if I can accept it. Not that Bioware should care about me. It's
only my opinion.

Perhaps I'm wrong , but Cerberus was "Created" well before the events of ME1 . So its quite possible that they'd be in league by that time.

Modifié par Saaziel, 14 juillet 2011 - 10:28 .

[alperez]

hhh89 wrote...

My problem isn't that TIM joins the Reapers, or that he becomes a monster. My problem is that he worked with them since ME. Which I can't neither understand or accept. Maybe it's not trolling. They could do whatever they want with their games. But for me, it will be stupid, and I don't know if I can accept it. Not that Bioware should care about me. It's only my opinion.

You can't accept the possibility that all along Cerberus and the reapers have worked together Why not?

[The Elder King]

Saaziel wrote...



Perhaps I'm wrong , but Cerberus was "Created" well before the events of ME1 . So its quite possible that they'd be in league by that time.

Exactly, and TIM created Cerberus to stop the Reapers (from the comic Evolution) . And to join their side, the only possible way was to find Sovereign. I don't think that TIM found it, and I doubt that  Sovereign didn't use him and Cereberus along with Saren in ME in the case TIM found it. Remember that their first and main plan was to open the Citadel relay, so it should have used every resources it had to this plan (except the Collectors, whose served to another purpose).
And for the reason I've already stated in my previous post.

alperez wrote...



You can't accept the possibility that all along Cerberus and the reapers have worked together Why not?

Because from what we know about TIM, he was always against the Reapers. Why should have him helped Shepard destroy the Collectors? Why should the Reapers wanted that?

And to clear something, I'm not saying that Cerberus working with the Reapers from ME doesn't make sense, or it's stupid, as universal. In my opinion, it's stupid and doesn't make sense.

Modifié par hhh89, 14 juillet 2011 - 10:39 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

That's just because Cerberus has infiltrated the Alliance's ranks.

That's just because General Williams was TIM's drinking buddy back in the day.

Zulu's back!


Awwwww yeah now all we need is King Zeel, Elite Midget, and Extreme One and we can have a party!

[alperez]

hhh89 wrote...

Because from what we know about TIM, he was always against the Reapers. Why should have him helped Shepard destroy the Collectors? Why should the Reapers wanted that?

And to clear something, I'm not saying that Cerberus working with the Reapers from ME doesn't make sense, or it's stupid, as universal. In my opinion, it's stupid and doesn't make sense.

Tim like Saren before him found info about the reapers and has been trying to stop them, but perhaps like Saren before him he has come to the conclussion that they cannot be stopped and like Saren before him he's been trying to prove that organics could be useful to ensure his own survival. However one small problem in that logic the reapers already had organic help in the form of the collectors, so TIM decided to take out the competition.

Thats without going into the whole indoctrination angle.

[The Elder King]

alperez wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Because from what we know about TIM, he was always against the Reapers. Why should have him helped Shepard destroy the Collectors? Why should the Reapers wanted that?

And to clear something, I'm not saying that Cerberus working with the Reapers from ME doesn't make sense, or it's stupid, as universal. In my opinion, it's stupid and doesn't make sense.

Tim like Saren before him found info about the reapers and has been trying to stop them, but perhaps like Saren before him he has come to the conclussion that they cannot be stopped and like Saren before him he's been trying to prove that organics could be useful to ensure his own survival. However one small problem in that logic the reapers already had organic help in the form of the collectors, so TIM decided to take out the competition.

Thats without going into the whole indoctrination angle.

Sorry, but I really don't think it's even possible. Other than the fact that the Reapers will kill TIM if he was their "ally" and decided to kill the other organic help, why did TIM took Shepard from the SB (who was working for the Collector-Harbinger) and revived him?
I know that for you and probably a lot of others this makes sense, but for me (despite the fact that I don't like Cerberus) this doesn't make sense, and the theory of TIM that killed the Collectors to take out the competitors is less reasonable (for me) that the theory of his indoctrination.

[AesirMan]

Alpez glad we can keep this civil... it is actually a bit refreshing.

Now here's the key point, all of these things have to mesh up and work in a continous story arc, the problem is that no matter how its written (good or bad) no matter how they story arc plays out, cerberus loyalists won't accept any outcome that doesn't either paint TIM as a super genius with a master plan or a misunderstood hero.


To me if they don't give the option that is more like a slap to the face to some and bad writing to others. It also pretty much pisses all over the renegade train of thought and their actions in ME2.



We need to gather allies in me3, allies that may not want to work for someone who works with Cerberus, something they have already shown us by not allowing us to work with the Alliance or Council in me2. Its a similar thing with choosing a council made up entirely of humans, you immediately create a level of distrust amongs alien races.

I find the council to be actually useless. Something that they don't help humanity and well in 50 years humanity rose to high heights in power that is great but to punish them for it... means that i will only help the council or aid the council or request aid when it benefits humanity as they seem to be on the same mindset we help humans when it benefits us.... we won't help their colonies we see no benefit in it.

Who said Cerberus can't have allies? I never claimed to go pure renegade.... actually in my games I am generally 70 30 renegade paragon. I have Rachni and the Krogan cure.... I made sure to keep the overlord project running just in case the geth get some reprogramming.... I told the quarians to make peace after nuking the rogue geth. Sorry but brainwashing to me is not something I'd do because if I could do it the opponents could easily do it back. Thus domination is preferable. So I have the quarians, geth, krogan and rachni.... Earth Alliance will come along and Cerberus would be behind the scene.((maybe))? Do I expect to win.... maybe... maybe not... but I plan to give a good fight.


Given the choice Cerberus on your side and no one else or everyone else but no cerberus who would you pick? and logically is it possible that the rest of the galaxy would just ignore every action cerberus has ever taken and accept their help knowing what goal cerberus ultimately wants?

First question Everyone else. Second Logically speaking yes, yes they would. Here is why: In the area of genocide and survival from genocide morality and ethics are very cloudy. War makes the strangest bedfellows. Here is a hypothetical.

You take a Wahabist, a Salafist and a sociopathic Shia give them all knives... and leave them in a room with 10 random Americans... The 3 with knives know that the 10 will overpower them if they do not act in unison. So they put aside their differences and proceed to butcher the 10 for survival. The Salafist and Wahabist being Sunni then proceed to kill the Shia if the Shia still lives. So yes War, Blackmail, Genocide all can make strange bedfellows.

At once again the people that hate Cerberus seem to only be able to paint TIM as a monster and a villain and nothing else? Could it be that he is a Villain and a Hero? Or a Genius and a Monster that fights for humanity?

The thing is I see no middle ground really on either camp but since BW has yet to make anything but a few minute demo which just says "Cerberus has been indoctrinated." Could just mean 1 or 2 cells or it could mean the entire organization and what the pro cerberus camp pretty much thinks if its the entire organization thats horrid writing as the renegade shep has pretty much been pro cerberus... Why kill your loyal minion?

And TIM being indoctrinated since ME1 makes sense to me whatsoever. If he was indoctrinated Why would he get Sheps body back from the shadow broker and prevent it from going to the collectors if the collectors serve the reapers... If he is indoctrinated in ME3 that to me is poor writing... once again my opinions on the whole indoctrination thing.

Modifié par AesirMan, 14 juillet 2011 - 11:13 .

[alperez]

hhh89 wrote...


Sorry, but I really don't think it's even possible. Other than the fact that the Reapers will kill TIM if he was their "ally" and decided to kill the other organic help, why did TIM took Shepard from the SB (who was working for the Collector-Harbinger) and revived him?
I know that for you and probably a lot of others this makes sense, but for me (despite the fact that I don't like Cerberus) this doesn't make sense, and the theory of TIM that killed the Collectors to take out the competitors is less reasonable (for me) that the theory of his indoctrination.

Well your forcing me to go with the indoctrination angle since you don't like this explanation.

Saren when indoctrinated retained his free will to a point as it was needed in order to find the conduit, so an indoctrinated TIM would also retain some elements of his own free will, perhaps that explains why some actions fit in with a TIM trying to stop the reapers and some may fit with a TIM working with the reapers.

Or perhaps TIM's indoctrination is based solely on proximity to reaper artifacts/reapers themselves which come me3 will kinda be hard to be any great distance from, once near those artifacts/reapers a TIM who isn't properly Indoctrinated becomes Indoctrinated thereby forcing him from someone who wanted to stop the reapers into another Reaper tool.

[The Elder King]

AesirMan wrote...

snip

I like your post. Though I don't like Cerberus much, I never expected before the first ME3 news that they're working with the Reaper in ME3. I really hope that they find a good explanation for that (because I don't like the indoctrination theory).

[AesirMan]

And that is stale writing going into indoctrination of TIM... they studied indoctrination and they have a decent idea on how it works and to avoid it. TIM would probably stay away from reaper tech and let techies do their thing as he recieves status updates and video footage of the area to make things are looking alright.

[The Elder King]

alperez wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


Sorry, but I really don't think it's even possible. Other than the fact that the Reapers will kill TIM if he was their "ally" and decided to kill the other organic help, why did TIM took Shepard from the SB (who was working for the Collector-Harbinger) and revived him?
I know that for you and probably a lot of others this makes sense, but for me (despite the fact that I don't like Cerberus) this doesn't make sense, and the theory of TIM that killed the Collectors to take out the competitors is less reasonable (for me) that the theory of his indoctrination.

Well your forcing me to go with the indoctrination angle since you don't like this explanation.

Saren when indoctrinated retained his free will to a point as it was needed in order to find the conduit, so an indoctrinated TIM would also retain some elements of his own free will, perhaps that explains why some actions fit in with a TIM trying to stop the reapers and some may fit with a TIM working with the reapers.

Or perhaps TIM's indoctrination is based solely on proximity to reaper artifacts/reapers themselves which come me3 will kinda be hard to be any great distance from, once near those artifacts/reapers a TIM who isn't properly Indoctrinated becomes Indoctrinated thereby forcing him from someone who wanted to stop the reapers into another Reaper tool.

Maybe you misunderstood me. I didn't say I cant' accept that TIM  choose on his own to join the Reapers (though I don't like the idea) I said that I don't understand that TIM is working for the Reapers since ME.
And really, I don't see the reason to make that decision. If they wants that Cerberus work with the Reapers, they can find a good and reasonable explanation to make this alliance begin a little bit prior to ME3. There's no reason to make TIM working with them before ME, in my opinion.

Modifié par hhh89, 14 juillet 2011 - 11:21 .

[alperez]

Aesir 2 people having a civil discussion on an internet forum isn't that the first sign of the apocalypse lol. I'm going to use numbers on your points to try and clarify it a little.

1. To me if they don't give the option that is more like a slap to the face to some and bad writing to others. It also pretty much pisses all over the renegade train of thought and their actions in ME2.

Yes and no, it eliminates the option of working with cerberus which is to some a slap in the face but it doesn't eliminate the option of renegede actions.

2. council.

Yes the council like practically every government refuse to take action until the last possible moment which you can argue makes them useless and yes they do seem to try to limit humanities rise and help only when it suits thier needs.

But firstly they are technically in charge of the whole galaxy and have dealt with races who rose too quickly, (krogans) so limiting humanities rise and helping when it suits their own needs is partly because of fear of what could happen and partly to ensure the stability of the galaxy (some races already fear humanities rise as it is).

3. Allies.

Its not a particular point at how you or i play more a logical one, We're told from the start that the council and alliance view Cerberus as a terrorist organisation, we know from Tali how the Quarians feel about them. I doubt theTurians hold them in high regard either (my opinion only).

So logically would all of these people just accept being led by someone with close ties or working with cerberus, personally i don't think so.

4. allies working with cerberus just because of potential genocide.

Your argument makes a certain kind of sense, but here's the rub, some of those allies need to be convinced to work with you and not on their own, some of those allies have political and idealogical reasoning why they may not work with Cerberus.

In a perfect world the scenario would play out just as you suggest, alas not a perfect world, so other factors have to be taken into account.

5. middle ground.

I agree there really isn't one and we still don't know the context of how things will play out.

Personally i think it'll be revealed to be TIM and by definition Cerberus acting under the illusion that what they are doing is right, one bad apple spoiling the bunch, but i could be wrong. As for the bad writing well thats where we really do disagree i think.

You say because your pro cerberus and played in that manner having TIM turn on you is bad writing because it force you to play against what you believe, i say that anti cerberus people have already been forced to do the same.

But even despite all that, people turn on people, people betray for reasons they themselves have, If TIM is in fact indoctrinated then stopping Shepard by any means he can makes perfect sense no matter how you yourself feel about cerberus.

For a non indoctrinated TIM who seeing the devestation the reapers cause when they arrive could decide we can't win so instead try and make the best deal possible, that deal being Shepard's head on a platter.

6. Indoctrinated TIM

Well two trains of thought on this, firstly we don't know when or how much he's been indoctrinated by and by default how much control he has or the reapers do over his actions.

So either he hasn't been indoctrinated fully until me3 perhaps because his full indoctrination requires the presence of an actual reaper or he's been indoctrinated all along but like Saren he retained some of his free will.

[alperez]

AesirMan wrote...

And that is stale writing going into indoctrination of TIM... they studied indoctrination and they have a decent idea on how it works and to avoid it. TIM would probably stay away from reaper tech and let techies do their thing as he recieves status updates and video footage of the area to make things are looking alright.

Saren tried to stop himself being indoctrinated also, he also didn't think he was in fact indoctrinated almost up to the end, with TIM we know he was in contact with a reaper artifact which somehow changed him, so maybe its just the same as it was with Saren, tim just doesn't realise it yet.

[alperez]

hhh89 wrote...

Maybe you misunderstood me. I didn't say I cant' accept that TIM  choose on his own to join the Reapers (though I don't like the idea) I said that I don't understand that TIM is working for the Reapers since ME.
And really, I don't see the reason to make that decision. If they wants that Cerberus work with the Reapers, they can find a good and reasonable explanation to make this alliance begin a little bit prior to ME3. There's no reason to make TIM working with them before ME, in my opinion.

No maybe, definetely lol.

So let me see if i have this right now, its pretty much from the events of me2 that you don't get how TIM could have been indoctrinated before then?

[Someone With Mass]

"Omega stands alone. Beyond the reach of galactic politics, the space station has provided a home for commerce unwelcome elsewhere for years – all it’s criminal gangs fearing its leader, the powerful asaribiotic Aria T’Loak.

But there are those who do not respect Aria’s rule – or anything else. Following Commander Shepard’s successful expedition against the mysterious Collector menace, the prohuman organization Cerberus establishes bases beyond the Omega 4 relay to investigate the alien threat.

When Cerberus’s experiments with Reaper technologies goes wrong, a new threat emerges from the Relay, ready to wreak destruction on an unsuspecting galaxy. The first stop on the path to utter destruction: Omega, which stands, as always, alone…"

Good job as always, Cerberus.

[alperez]

Someone With Mass

Yeah i read that as well, some people just don't learn from their mistakes.

[alperez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Omega being wiped out is a good thing.

Nuhuh, Asari lapdancer number 2 said she liked me.

[The Elder King]

alperez wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Maybe you misunderstood me. I didn't say I cant' accept that TIM  choose on his own to join the Reapers (though I don't like the idea) I said that I don't understand that TIM is working for the Reapers since ME.
And really, I don't see the reason to make that decision. If they wants that Cerberus work with the Reapers, they can find a good and reasonable explanation to make this alliance begin a little bit prior to ME3. There's no reason to make TIM working with them before ME, in my opinion.

No maybe, definetely lol.

So let me see if i have this right now, its pretty much from the events of me2 that you don't get how TIM could have been indoctrinated before then?

More or less. He clearly stated that he was against Reapers even in the prologue. I'd say helping Liara retrieving Shepard's body and opposing the SB that worked for the Collectors is something to consider. Plus, as I already said, he found Cerberus to protect humanity from the Reapers (and for rise humanity). I know that something could have changed him when he was exposed to the artifact, but I hope that if Bioware is going on the indoctrination line the indoctrination starts in ME3, or at least after ME2. Though if they have found a better explanation for this alliance I'll be more happy. The thing I want most is that Cerberus didn't work for them in ME and ME2. But again, that only my opinion.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

alperez wrote...

Someone With Mass

Yeah i read that as well, some people just don't learn from their mistakes.

I can't feel sorry for them. I really can't. They deserve every ounce of punishment and torment coming their way.

Unless Shepard is involved, messing around with Reaper tech will always end in disaster. At least for Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

alperez wrote...

Someone With Mass

Yeah i read that as well, some people just don't learn from their mistakes.

I can't feel sorry for them. I really can't. They deserve every ounce of punishment and torment coming their way.

Unless Shepard is involved, messing around with Reaper tech will always end in disaster. At least for Cerberus.

EDI was a disaster?

[The Elder King]

Someone With Mass wrote...

alperez wrote...

Someone With Mass

Yeah i read that as well, some people just don't learn from their mistakes.

I can't feel sorry for them. I really can't. They deserve every ounce of punishment and torment coming their way.

Unless Shepard is involved, messing around with Reaper tech will always end in disaster. At least for Cerberus.

Do you mean every people who work for Cerberus? I have to say that the people on the Normandy seemed ony eager to fight the Collectors/Reapers to protect humanity.
Edit: and as someone said, EDI isn't a disaster.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Omega being wiped out is a good thing.

Hell, not to put too fine a point on it, but-

If you want to spoil the ultimate Reaper surprise attack, pre-empting it with a threat in the Terminus is pretty much the best way to get the rest of the galaxy to start moving post-haste. If it comes from someone/something distinct from the Council both the Terminus and the Council will not only find the opportunity for common cause, but could force them better than anything else to recognize a Reaper-type threat.


And that's if this was an accident, mind you. If this is a deliberate Cerberus action, there's far more that could be involved.

[Dean_the_Young]

hhh89 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

alperez wrote...

Someone With Mass

Yeah i read that as well, some people just don't learn from their mistakes.

I can't feel sorry for them. I really can't. They deserve every ounce of punishment and torment coming their way.

Unless Shepard is involved, messing around with Reaper tech will always end in disaster. At least for Cerberus.

Do you mean every people who work for Cerberus? I have to say that the people on the Normandy seemed ony eager to fight the Collectors/Reapers to protect humanity.
Edit: and as someone said, EDI isn't a disaster.

Nor were the Collector Weapon DLC. Or the Thannix utilization.

[The Elder King]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

alperez wrote...

Someone With Mass

Yeah i read that as well, some people just don't learn from their mistakes.

I can't feel sorry for them. I really can't. They deserve every ounce of punishment and torment coming their way.

Unless Shepard is involved, messing around with Reaper tech will always end in disaster. At least for Cerberus.

Do you mean every people who work for Cerberus? I have to say that the people on the Normandy seemed ony eager to fight the Collectors/Reapers to protect humanity.
Edit: and as someone said, EDI isn't a disaster.

Nor were the Collector Weapon DLC. Or the Thannix utilization.

You're right about the Collector Weapon. Though the Thanix was created by the Turians.

Modifié par hhh89, 15 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .