411 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePwener]

alperez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

alperez wrote...

Considering Bioware have supposedly being planning this whole thing out for as long as they have do you really think they get to the point where EDI says what she does and are winging it?

LMAO, Bioware hasn't planned ****. It is painfully obvious that they're making up most of this as they go along.

A lot isn't planned definetely but you seriously believe they have from day one no idea where they were going and only how they got there may have changed?

Or is this more of the what's been done with cerberus couldn't have been planned because it was not what i wanted stuff you usually post?

This is the kind of stupidity and misinformation that ticks me off. BW has been planning ME for the last 8 years. ME1 came out in 2006. BW had the whole series (1 through 3) already made by 2005. You people are insane. The only thing added are the comics and books.

[Yakko77]

ThePwener wrote...

alperez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

alperez wrote...

Considering Bioware have supposedly being planning this whole thing out for as long as they have do you really think they get to the point where EDI says what she does and are winging it?

LMAO, Bioware hasn't planned ****. It is painfully obvious that they're making up most of this as they go along.

A lot isn't planned definetely but you seriously believe they have from day one no idea where they were going and only how they got there may have changed?

Or is this more of the what's been done with cerberus couldn't have been planned because it was not what i wanted stuff you usually post?

This is the kind of stupidity and misinformation that ticks me off. BW has been planning ME for the last 8 years. ME1 came out in 2006. BW had the whole series (1 through 3) already made by 2005. You people are insane. The only thing added are the comics and books.

There you go making sense again Thepwener. STOP IT!!!  This is the internet.  We cannot allow sensible thought and common sense to corrupt things.

[ThePwener]

Oh, nevermind then....

[Yakko77]

ThePwener wrote...

Oh, nevermind then....

Don't let it happen again!

[ThePwener]

Oh yes master! I'll run along now master!

[alperez]

ThePwener wrote...

This is the kind of stupidity and misinformation that ticks me off. BW has been planning ME for the last 8 years. ME1 came out in 2006. BW had the whole series (1 through 3) already made by 2005. You people are insane. The only thing added are the comics and books.

Let me get this straight your saying every single facet, every plot turn, every character arc, everything has been done since 2005 and your saying we're stupid and misinformed, pot kettle black.

[KevShep]

alperez wrote...


Considering Bioware have supposedly being planning this whole thing out for as long as they have do you really think they get to the point where EDI says what she does and are winging it?

If EDi is completely wrong then what was the point of getting her to say what she does in the first place, is it so we can go back to her in me3, point and laugh and go not as intelligent as you thought you were are you.

The wirters have to give the player...SOMETHING...to go off of because in the game shepard (and you, the player) ask the question..."why are the reapers doing this?" so if the answer to that question is a spoiler then they will not tell you the right answer. This is not that hard. the reason the reapers are doing what there doing at the collector base is a spoiler in ME3.

Modifié par KevShep, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:26 .

[KevShep]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Then you haven't played many Bioware video games.

 some of my favorate games are bioware. This game is a web of truths and half truths and anything that has not been astablished as a fact in that pressent moment in the game then that means that there is more to it thats why the writers of the game will throw out an anwser based on nothing more then a guess in order to solve the question later with the real answer. 

No, the Mass Effect series is painfully blunt and honest. The only lies in the game are those that are directly and openly contradicted later on as a matter of plot. The series has a pathological hatred of direct lies: even lies of omission are nearly always directly addressed shortly after they are made. Mystery and deception come from a lack of information and allowing players to draw their own unsupported conclusions, not erronious information.

This has been a defining aspect of the series since its start. When the nigh-omniscient authoritivative plot exposition device tells you the likely basis of something... that's what happened. If you'd played more Bioware games, you'd have noticed that.

first off the "lies" or guesses about the reason the reapers are doing what there doing in the game...DO...effect the main plot so bioware is not going to tell you the spoiler of ME3 in ME2...This is not that hard to understand. Just like in KOTOR 1 they were carefull what they said so you dont get tipped off that you were in fact Revan.

Modifié par KevShep, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:31 .

[alperez]

Kev

You seem to think that the writers deliberately lie to you in game at the risk of spoiling something they haven't told you the full story of yet. Instead what they do is more hint at things until they are ready to blatantly come out and tell you how it really is.

They show you a part of the puzzle, give you an answer to that part of the puzzle but the answer itself only makes sense when you solve the complete puzzle. What Edi says is step 1, during me3 we get the other steps and when we add all these together we get a coherent answer.

If they tell a blatant lie then each of the steps don't fit together smoothly and we get a incoherent plotline that is full of inconsitencies, while this does happen in some aspects overall it doesn't.

Not to mention the fact that game writing has been dumbed down so much that instead of overly complex explanations the simplest explanation that most people understand is generally the one they go with.

[KevShep]

alperez wrote...

Kev

You seem to think that the writers deliberately lie to you in game at the risk of spoiling something they haven't told you the full story of yet. Instead what they do is more hint at things until they are ready to blatantly come out and tell you how it really is.

They show you a part of the puzzle, give you an answer to that part of the puzzle but the answer itself only makes sense when you solve the complete puzzle. What Edi says is step 1, during me3 we get the other steps and when we add all these together we get a coherent answer.

If they tell a blatant lie then each of the steps don't fit together smoothly and we get a incoherent plotline that is full of inconsitencies, while this does happen in some aspects overall it doesn't.

Not to mention the fact that game writing has been dumbed down so much that instead of overly complex explanations the simplest explanation that most people understand is generally the one they go with.

I understand where your coming from, but the game or should I say EDI says quite clearly to the player(shepard) that she does not know why the reapers are doing this because she has no intel to go off of, so this way they(Bioware) are...NOT...contradicting the plot line thats why its a "guess".   she tells you that its is only a guess and not the real anwser so the devs can say what the real reason later on ...without...contradicting themselves. and its the point Ive been trying to make.EDI...does...not...know for sure and she does in fact stress that to the player.

Modifié par KevShep, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:39 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Bioware knows what they're doing... they just miss some things here and there... like any other game company. They may have changed their goals (or perhaps their budget made them) to a situation where the Paragon choices become the focus and all other choices skim on content to allow new players to feel more welcome... which in turn is incentive to make all the Paragon choices in another playthrough.

It may have started out as a goal to make a game with "hard decisions" but turned into the commercial reality of developing under a budget; consequently focusing on the Paragon outcomes and wrapping the narrative around them.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:32 .

[KevShep]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...


I'm with Saphra. It seems pretty obvious that Bioware doesn't know what they're doing.

But maybe ME3 will prove otherwise. Sadly, I really doubt it.

Casey Hudson says that they have made the whole story before ME1 and he did not know if they could in fact make it in three games. A lot of what is unknown from ME1/ME2 is because they are tied to the main plot and that main plot just happends to still is yet to be revealed in ME3.

Modifié par KevShep, 15 juillet 2011 - 09:35 .

[The Elder King]

alperez wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


More or less He clearly stated that he was against Reapers even in the prologue. I'd say helping Liara retrieving Shepard's body and opposing the SB that worked for the Collectors is something to consider. Plus, as I already said, he found Cerberus to protect humanity from the Reapers (and for rise humanity). I know that something could have changed him when he was exposed to the artifact, but I hope that if Bioware is going on the indoctrination line the indoctrination starts in ME3, or at least after ME2. Though if they have found a better explanation for this alliance I'll be more happy. The thing I want most is that Cerberus didn't work for them in ME and ME2. But again, that only my opinion.

Ok then, Btw is this thread and the are we being fooled thread basically a lot of the same people having the same argument in a slightly different manner lol.

Firstly don't get me wrong despite my posts i hate the indoctrination angle, its just that a lot of time it seems to be the goto excuse why someone is suddenly changed.

I've said this already but perhaps TIM's been indoctrinated ever since he first came into contact with that artifact but the indoctrination hasn't worked out yet and doesn't actually kick in until the reapers arrive, so basically he's been a sleeper all along.

What i mean by this is we know he has some connection with the reapers, that he knows things he shouldn't hears things etc. from the books, so maybe instead of being indoctrinated he's been using that info to stop the reapers thereby in essence saving himself from being indoctrinated at all.

So up until me3, what TIM's been hearing in his head has been the reapers attempts to indoctrinate him but its not worked because they are too far away for the indoctrination to take place and rather than have an indoctrinated TIM do their bidding its having the reverse effect of giving TIM info that could stop them.

TIM uses that info, does the experiments, brings back Shepard etc. because he isn't fully indoctrinated and stopping the reapers would also stop the indoctrination, all the tech etc. that he so eagerly collects serves 2 purposes.

It stops his own indoctrination progressing and it could help to defeat the reapers (would explain why he is so pissed if you destroy the base) but once the reapers arrive he's screwed, the indoctrination takes over and he does what the reapers want, go after Shepard.

th

This is plausible. And while I don't like indoctrination like you, I think it could be possible though in my theory of TIM'S indoctrination I think that something happened in TIM's mind in the moment that the Reapers invaded the Milky Way.

[The Elder King]

KevShep wrote...



Cerberus for reasons we dont know yet(spoiler into why cerberus is working for the reapers) may have been useing the Collector base incident (ME2 plot) as nothing more then an elaborate plan concocted by cerberus and the reapers together.There might have been a problem at the collector base that we did not see or know of that caused them to get shepard involved through an elaborate plan. If the collectors(or reapers) wanted Shepard alive then why did they kill him at the start of ME2?

BTW TIM is...NOT...indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!!!! If TIM is indoctrinated then Bioware would not say in the first place that cerberus is working for the reaper! That....would ....be...to...odvious!!!!!!!!

First, I'm not saying that the Reapers wanted Shepard alive. They wanted Shepard, dead or alive, it doesn't matter. And they hired the SB to retrieve his body, while TIM helped Liara to retrieve it. Why did he help Liara?
About the CB, there is no reason for the Reapers to destroy the Collectors. And plus, Shepard destroyed a Human Reaper larva. This surely the Reapers don't want.

[alperez]

hhh89 wrote...



This is plausible. And while I don't like indoctrination like you, I think it could be possible though in my theory of TIM'S indoctrination I think that something happened in TIM's mind in the moment that the Reapers invaded the Milky Way.

Exactly up until that point he could have been doing the things he was doing for the reasons stated, i think the indoctrination event took place when he made contact with the artifact which does change him, its just that the actual indoctrination itself didn't fully take until the reapers arrival.

Maybe the whole point of TIM's secret base is that he knows if he comes into contact with reaper artifacts again he will be completely indoctrinated so what he's done is to find somewhere that A. limits this chance to zero and B. would be the least likely place to come under attack if the reapers arrive.

If shepard stops the arrival, stops the reapers then TIM doesn't get indoctrinated so to achieve that and to stop the reapers for humanity and his own goals anyway, Tim uses all his resources to bring Shepard back. Unfortunately Shepard doesn't stop the reapers and TIM hasn't gone far enough away to stop his complete indoctrination, leading to the events we may see in me3 and a pretty pissed off TIM.

Think of it like a very rich person knowing they are ill and are going to die doing every single thing possible to delay or stop that from happening.

Modifié par alperez, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:02 .

[Skorpion_hrv]

As a hard-core Cerberus supporter, I agree that using them as cannon fodder is cheap (they could have easily used STG or Asari Commando, we'll see how it turns out) but I don't mind it that much, as long as we get the dialog options to express our love for TIM and Cerberus. I doubt Bioware will disappoint, after all, we did get that awesome line with Vasir in SB. ''Yeah, I'm with Cerberus and don't care''. Thanks Bioware.

[alperez]

Skorpion

I get your a hardcore cerberus supporter like you say but seriously in a game where one the key elements is to gather allies to fight the reapers you think it makes more sense that instead of Cerberus (an organisation we have already faced parts of as antagonists) it makes more sense to have us fight Asari commandos or STG forces.

Logic like that leads to only one thing, drinking of Kool Aid.

[GreenDragon37]

alperez wrote...

Skorpion

I get your a hardcore cerberus supporter like you say but seriously in a game where one the key elements is to gather allies to fight the reapers you think it makes more sense that instead of Cerberus (an organisation we have already faced parts of as antagonists) it makes more sense to have us fight Asari commandos or STG forces.

Logic like that leads to only one thing, drinking of Kool Aid.

Seriously. I think a good twist would be that TIM wants Shep to fight Cerberus so that the aliens will have no fear of working with Shep. Pro-Cerberus or Anti-Cerberus, TIM has painted Shep as the "poster boy" of Cerberus in ME2. That damaged his reputation. By making Cerberus the enemy, TIM is actually helping Shep to gather allies by erasing the ties he had to Cerberus. It may lead to TIM's death, but he might not care if it means that Humanity survives.

If BioWare goes this way, I'll be impressed.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 15 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .

[KevShep]

hhh89 wrote...

KevShep wrote...



Cerberus for reasons we dont know yet(spoiler into why cerberus is working for the reapers) may have been useing the Collector base incident (ME2 plot) as nothing more then an elaborate plan concocted by cerberus and the reapers together.There might have been a problem at the collector base that we did not see or know of that caused them to get shepard involved through an elaborate plan. If the collectors(or reapers) wanted Shepard alive then why did they kill him at the start of ME2?

BTW TIM is...NOT...indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!!!! If TIM is indoctrinated then Bioware would not say in the first place that cerberus is working for the reaper! That....would ....be...to...odvious!!!!!!!!

First, I'm not saying that the Reapers wanted Shepard alive. They wanted Shepard, dead or alive, it doesn't matter. And they hired the SB to retrieve his body, while TIM helped Liara to retrieve it. Why did he help Liara?
About the CB, there is no reason for the Reapers to destroy the Collectors. And plus, Shepard destroyed a Human Reaper larva. This surely the Reapers don't want.

What Iam saying is that there is most likely something going on in the shadows of the main plot in ME2 that we do see....yet. If cerberus is allied to the reapers then cerberus and the collectors may not have actually been against each other after all in ME2. I dont think that the collectors wanted him dead at the start of ME2(they may have been trying to get him alive at the begining) because then cerberus brings him back. what ever the reason is I know that the ME3 big spoiler will have a lot to do with the plot line of ME2.

[The Elder King]

KevShep wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

KevShep wrote...



Cerberus for reasons we dont know yet(spoiler into why cerberus is working for the reapers) may have been useing the Collector base incident (ME2 plot) as nothing more then an elaborate plan concocted by cerberus and the reapers together.There might have been a problem at the collector base that we did not see or know of that caused them to get shepard involved through an elaborate plan. If the collectors(or reapers) wanted Shepard alive then why did they kill him at the start of ME2?

BTW TIM is...NOT...indoctrinated!!!!!!!!!!!! If TIM is indoctrinated then Bioware would not say in the first place that cerberus is working for the reaper! That....would ....be...to...odvious!!!!!!!!

First, I'm not saying that the Reapers wanted Shepard alive. They wanted Shepard, dead or alive, it doesn't matter. And they hired the SB to retrieve his body, while TIM helped Liara to retrieve it. Why did he help Liara?
About the CB, there is no reason for the Reapers to destroy the Collectors. And plus, Shepard destroyed a Human Reaper larva. This surely the Reapers don't want.

What Iam saying is that there is most likely something going on in the shadows of the main plot in ME2 that we do see....yet. If cerberus is allied to the reapers then cerberus and the collectors may not have actually been against each other after all in ME2. I dont think that the collectors wanted him dead at the start of ME2(they may have been trying to get him alive at the begining) because then cerberus brings him back. what ever the reason is I know that the ME3 big spoiler will have a lot to do with the plot line of ME2.

But it makes no sense. The Collectore General (that was controlled by Harbinger) clearly said to the SB that he wanted Shepard's body. Why Cerberus, that in your opinion is allied with the Collectors and the Reapers, helped Liara to retrieve his body, and faced the SB's men, who worked for the Collectors? It makes no sense.

[Skorpion_hrv]

alperez wrote...

Skorpion

I get your a hardcore cerberus supporter like you say but seriously in a game where one the key elements is to gather allies to fight the reapers you think it makes more sense that instead of Cerberus (an organisation we have already faced parts of as antagonists) it makes more sense to have us fight Asari commandos or STG forces.

Logic like that leads to only one thing, drinking of Kool Aid.

Why would you need logic when you can have indoctrination? And yes, if the STG was to go rogue due to indoctrination, it would be fairly easy to gather allies, since everyone would notice that, and that wouldn't be fun. I doubt TIM is indoctrinated or that he is consciously working for the Reapers. That would be the worst writing ever.

[alperez]

Skorpion_hrv wrote...

Why would you need logic when you can have indoctrination? And yes, if the STG was to go rogue due to indoctrination, it would be fairly easy to gather allies, since everyone would notice that, and that wouldn't be fun. I doubt TIM is indoctrinated or that he is consciously working for the Reapers. That would be the worst writing ever.

Even indoctrination has to follow some logic, your missing my point though. Instead of Cerberus a terrorist organisation in the eyes of most of the galaxy, an organisation that by simply indoctrinating the main guy could lead quite easily to indoctrinating the rest of the organisation and an organisation that has for no government, you think it would make more sense to indoctrinate the STG?

We have no advance knowledge of who the STG are, how they're leadership structure works and they are tied into a government who we may need to bring on board as allies, so there are inherent problems, not to mention if they could just indoctrinate the STG then why not the entire Salarian race?

Cerberus being indoctrinated creates much less plot problems considering we already know who they are, they aren't tied directly to any government and we know how they're leadership structure is set up, out of all of the potentially indoctrinated groups they are the only one who could be competely indoctrinated and for it to make any sense.

As for the last bit, you doubt TIM is indoctrinated that's fine but if he isn't and isn't conciously working for the reapers does that mean he's subconsciously working for them and if thats the case wouldn't that mean he's indoctrinated?

[Praetor Knight]

alperez wrote...

As for the last bit, you doubt TIM is indoctrinated that's fine but if he isn't and isn't conciously working for the reapers does that mean he's subconsciously working for them and if thats the case wouldn't that mean he's indoctrinated?

I'm gonna jump in cuz I feel I might be able to add to the discussion about TIM. So, as we saw throughtout ME2, TIM knows how to use his assets and is willing to make sacrifices.

So if Shepard is in danger of getting locked up or executed because of Shep's connections with Cerberus, then it's in TIM's best interest to change that perception so that Shepard can continue the fight against the Reapers.

So in other words, if Cerberus is seen as trying to kill Shepard then how can Shepard be accused of working for them?
That should be enough proof for most individuals anyway, and also does not require TIM to be indoctrinated, thus one way that Cerberus can be after Shepard in ME3.

[Warkupo]

Holy moly, it's like we'd have to play the game to understand its' plot or something! WHAT KIND OF LOGIC IS THIS THAT DEFIES ME SO?