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[Praetor Knight]

Warkupo wrote...

Holy moly, it's like we'd have to play the game to understand its' plot or something! WHAT KIND OF LOGIC IS THIS THAT DEFIES ME SO?

As I've read others joke, logic? What a novel concept



The wait is bittersweet, but I feel worth it

[Godak]

...I am always amazed by the number of people on this planet that have such selective memories. 0.o

Oh, uh, don't mind me. Carry on.

[alperez]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I'm gonna jump in cuz I feel I might be able to add to the discussion about TIM. So, as we saw throughtout ME2, TIM knows how to use his assets and is willing to make sacrifices.

So if Shepard is in danger of getting locked up or executed because of Shep's connections with Cerberus, then it's in TIM's best interest to change that perception so that Shepard can continue the fight against the Reapers.

So in other words, if Cerberus is seen as trying to kill Shepard then how can Shepard be accused of working for them?
That should be enough proof for most individuals anyway, and also does not require TIM to be indoctrinated, thus one way that Cerberus can be after Shepard in ME3.

So basically rather than Biowares to this point goto excuse for why a character does bad things (indoctrination) you've come up with a complex scenario where the only real benefit is to make TIM not out to be the bad guy or the fallguy or anything other than the guy we're supposed to hate because thats who he was intended to be.

Cerberus sends people to kill Shepard to get Shepard off from being Locked up or executed even after Shepard is not locked up and is in no danger of being executed and this makes sense how?

All those cerberus troops that are sent to make it look like they are trying to kill Shepard, do they have blanks? or they really ****** poor shots? what happens to this elaborate plan of TIM's if someone gets a lucky shot off and actually kills shepard, does TIM make an oops face?

I get why cerberus fans don't want TIM to be indoctrinated and because of this have convinced themselves that every single thing TIm's been doing has all be part of some elaborate masterplan but sometimes doesn't the simplest answer make the most sense?

Everything we know points to 1.TIM may be indoctrinated and 2. Cerberus are trying to kill Shepard because they're working with the reapers and yet people refuse to believe 1 because it doesn't fit into how they want things to be and try to claim 2. is all part of some elaborate masterplan that will result in the reapers being defeated by someone who isn't even the protagonist in the story.

Now i'm not saying i'm completely right or that i know any more than anyone else how things will play out in me3 but when every piece of information points you in one direction, when every clue you get suggests one thing, unless bioware are pulling off the biggest piece of misdirection ever doesn't it make sense that how things look like going is how they will end up going?

[Praetor Knight]

alperez wrote...

So basically rather than Biowares to this point goto excuse for why a character does bad things (indoctrination) you've come up with a complex scenario where the only real benefit is to make TIM not out to be the bad guy or the fallguy or anything other than the guy we're supposed to hate because thats who he was intended to be.

Cerberus sends people to kill Shepard to get Shepard off from being Locked up or executed even after Shepard is not locked up and is in no danger of being executed and this makes sense how?

Depends on what does happens. I have no problem being wrong.

All those cerberus troops that are sent to make it look like they are trying to kill Shepard, do they have blanks? or they really ****** poor shots? what happens to this elaborate plan of TIM's if someone gets a lucky shot off and actually kills shepard, does TIM make an oops face?

Collector Ship, Reaper IFF. TIM knows it's a calculated risk and likely has alternatives.

I get why cerberus fans don't want TIM to be indoctrinated and because of this have convinced themselves that every single thing TIm's been doing has all be part of some elaborate masterplan but sometimes doesn't the simplest answer make the most sense?

Not a Cerberus fan. But I do prefer to have a complex bad guy. And I think that best bad guy's think they're doing the right thing.

Everything we know points to 1.TIM may be indoctrinated and 2. Cerberus are trying to kill Shepard because they're working with the reapers and yet people refuse to believe 1 because it doesn't fit into how they want things to be and try to claim 2. is all part of some elaborate masterplan that will result in the reapers being defeated by someone who isn't even the protagonist in the story.

Now i'm not saying i'm completely right or that i know any more than anyone else how things will play out in me3 but when every piece of information points you in one direction, when every clue you get suggests one thing, unless bioware are pulling off the biggest piece of misdirection ever doesn't it make sense that how things look like going is how they will end up going?

At least we have a discussion!



The key thing for me is do we want TIM to be a servant, or do we want him to keep doing what he's done without something influencing his decisions.

And I'm hoping for twists and turns in ME3, so I figured that it's plausible for TIM to have a such motivations to defeat the reapers or simply survive at all costs.

[sympathy4saren]

I agree with the OP

[DarkSeraphym]

alperez wrote...

All those cerberus troops that are sent to make it look like they are trying to kill Shepard, do they have blanks? or they really ****** poor shots? what happens to this elaborate plan of TIM's if someone gets a lucky shot off and actually kills shepard, does TIM make an oops face?

To be fair, this is not at all any different from any of the actions that TIM takes twice in Mass Effect 2. He is directly behind sending Shepard into two traps, Horizon and the Collector Ship, knowing what the implications of his death could be. However, despite that, the Illusive Man is confident enough in his abilities both times to believe that Shepard will survive. I'm not seeing the issue in believing that he would be capable of doing it a third time against his own troops.

alperez wrote...

Everything we know points to 1.TIM may be indoctrinated and 2. Cerberus are trying to kill Shepard because they're working with the reapers and yet people refuse to believe 1 because it doesn't fit into how they want things to be and try to claim 2. is all part of some elaborate masterplan that will result in the reapers being defeated by someone who isn't even the protagonist in the story.

Players are not resistant to the idea that TIM is indoctrinated for the reasons you have mentioned. Instead, players are resistant to it because the events of Evolution are typically cited as evidence of such and it creates a large plot hole. For example, if TIM has been indoctrinated that long, why did he opt to bring Shepard back from the dead? After all, the Collectors were directed to destroy Normandy and they nearly had custody of his body. If it hadn't been for the Illusive Man's involvement in foiling that plan, Mass Effect 2 would not have ever transpired.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 16 juillet 2011 - 03:31 .

[Skorpion_hrv]

alperez wrote...

Even indoctrination has to follow some logic, your missing my point though. Instead of Cerberus a terrorist organisation in the eyes of most of the galaxy, an organisation that by simply indoctrinating the main guy could lead quite easily to indoctrinating the rest of the organisation and an organisation that has for no government, you think it would make more sense to indoctrinate the STG?

We have no advance knowledge of who the STG are, how they're leadership structure works and they are tied into a government who we may need to bring on board as allies, so there are inherent problems, not to mention if they could just indoctrinate the STG then why not the entire Salarian race?

Cerberus being indoctrinated creates much less plot problems considering we already know who they are, they aren't tied directly to any government and we know how they're leadership structure is set up, out of all of the potentially indoctrinated groups they are the only one who could be competely indoctrinated and for it to make any sense.

As for the last bit, you doubt TIM is indoctrinated that's fine but if he isn't and isn't conciously working for the reapers does that mean he's subconsciously working for them and if thats the case wouldn't that mean he's indoctrinated?

Isn't this thread about how illogical it is that Cerberus is indoctrinated in the first place? Whose point of view are you talking about? The writer's? Yes, it makes more sense to shot at Cerberus and we'll do just that. And you said it, it's much more easier to simply say ''Cerberus is indoctrinated'' than think about something better, develop the lore and ''create plot problems''. Why are you even so opposed to STG/Asari indoctrination. It would go like this: One day Captain Kirrahe found a strange artifact...
Regarding TIM, because he is such badass, I think the Reapers are actually subconsciously working for him.

[Praetor Knight]

Skorpion_hrv wrote...

Regarding TIM, because he is such badass, I think the Reapers are actually subconsciously working for him.

Then all we'd need is to put Zaeed in the same room with TIM, so that only Zaeed survives
Only Shepard seems to hold that honor, so TIM doesn't stand a chance and we beat the reapers!

[alperez]

Skorpion_hrv wrote...


Isn't this thread about how illogical it is that Cerberus is indoctrinated in the first place? Whose point of view are you talking about? The writer's? Yes, it makes more sense to shot at Cerberus and we'll do just that. And you said it, it's much more easier to simply say ''Cerberus is indoctrinated'' than think about something better, develop the lore and ''create plot problems''. Why are you even so opposed to STG/Asari indoctrination. It would go like this: One day Captain Kirrahe found a strange artifact...
Regarding TIM, because he is such badass, I think the Reapers are actually subconsciously working for him.

I've argued its not illogical though right from the start. yes from my own pov and also from the writers who in books and in game have cerberus take certain actions that are questionable, it makes logic and sense that to then turn them into generic enemies (whatever plot hook they use, Indoctrination etc).

In terms of why not further elaborate on the lore and create plot problems as you put it, its much easier to just simple flesh out the lore you've already created, add in a touch here and there and then explian that as having always been the direction you intended to go in, rather than create new lore. try to explain it and have people accept it.

To introduce the elments you suggest in the third game with no buildup whatsoever would imo cause much more confusion than to simply expand on the elements that may have already been introduced. More people know about Cerberus, their actions and their leadership structure than they do about Asari commandoes or STG special forces.

There is also the simple fact that out of the 3 groups you suggest Cerberus being the enemy is inherently less difficult to explain away than Asari Commando's or STG forces, with or without indoctrination Cerberus and their actions can be tied down to one man Tim. Create a reason why TIM is trying to kill Shepard and you create a reason why Cerberus are, you can't do this with either the Asari's or STGs, which is why its less logical imo to go that route.

For example you suggest something like Kirrahee found an artifact and you miss the fact that not everyone has an idea who your talking about and why this should end up with indoctrinated STG troops, Wheras say the same with TIM and the reasoning is that much easier to sell.

I'm not opposed to STG troops being indoctrinated or to Asaria commando's being indoctrinated but firstly you have to distinguish them from every other indoctrinated Asari or salarian, you then have to create a reason why this means something to Shepard and why these particular enemies should be feared more than random Asari or salarian's who are indoctrinated.

Basically we know TIM, we worked with Cerberus, we know how ruthless they can be when they set their minds to something and what lengths they would go to in order to achieve their goals, by then having those troops come after us we are already on board and know A. this means something to Shepard and B. We need to find TIM to stop this.

As for your last line, thinking the reapers are subconciously working for TIM, i assume you meant that as a joking response to me, if not its the dumbest thing i've heard on these forums ever.

[alperez]

DarkSeraphym wrote...


To be fair, this is not at all any different from any of the actions that TIM takes twice in Mass Effect 2. He is directly behind sending Shepard into two traps, Horizon and the Collector Ship, knowing what the implications of his death could be. However, despite that, the Illusive Man is confident enough in his abilities both times to believe that Shepard will survive. I'm not seeing the issue in believing that he would be capable of doing it a third time against his own troops.

So he's unleashing his elite troops with all new improved weapons inc. the Atlas because he knows that Shepard will survive makes more sense to you than he's trying to Kill Shepard? This seems like a better use of resources than oh i don't know actually fighting the reapers.

The difference is that giving someone part of the story or false info and sending them into a trap costs you only that resource, sending your troops after that person could lose you both resources. All for what purpose to create a smokescreen that Shepard doesn't work for you and hope its bought by people who actually at that point have much more important things to worry about.

So why does he continuously send his troops after Shepard, did people not buy this incredibly complex plan of his the first couple ot times?

Players are not resistant to the idea that TIM is indoctrinated for the reasons you have mentioned. Instead, players are resistant to it because the events of Evolution are typically cited as evidence of such and it creates a large plot hole. For example, if TIM has been indoctrinated that long, why did he opt to bring Shepard back from the dead? After all, the Collectors were directed to destroy Normandy and they nearly had custody of his body. If it hadn't been for the Illusive Man's involvement in foiling that plan, Mass Effect 2 would not have ever transpired.

Firstly indoctrination doesn't take away all free will, its subtle, it works in stages and takes time for it to completely take hold of someone. Saren even right at the end of ME1 wasn't completely indoctrinated which is why he has the free will to shoot himself should that be how you play it.

But here's a theory i posted somewhere else.

When TIM interacts with the artifact he is hit with what should be indoctrination, however for some reason it doesn't take hold as it should. Maybe its his proximity or his own strength of willpower, his mind being just too strong for the full effects of indoctrination to take place. SInce that moment TIM can hear the little whispers in his head, the whispers that should in fact be indoctrinating him further, however rather than that effect they are having the opposite.

TIM is learning about the reapers and their plans and his own indoctrination and he's figured something out, he can stop it if he stops them. By stopping the reapers arrival or by destroying them when they do he not only saves humanity but himself in the process.

So he devotes his life to understanding reapers, to collecting their tech and to finding a way to either stop them arriving or destroy them once they get here. In order to do this he orders experiments, countless experiments all with this goal in mind, he claims its to adavance humanity and while not exactly a lie its not the full truth either.

We fast forward to the events of me1/me2 and TIm watches as Saren and sovereign and some of his own experiments are taken down by this Shepard person, he watches as Shepard (the one person known to stop a reaper) is killed and he decides he can use his tech to bring back this Shepard and to stop the reapers and thier allies the collectors who have appeared on the scene.

We fast forward through the events of me2 and TIM being extremely pissed if Shepard destroys the base (as it could have been the key to both winning and indoctrination for TIM) and on to the events of me3.

But of course there is a catch, something TIM never counted on and its this, while all this time TIM has been ultra careful not to go anywhere near Reaper tech himself (at the risk of being completely indoctrinated) and has gone so far as to create a secret base in a secret location far from anywhere the reapers may arrive) he didn't go far enough because when the reapers arrive they arrive in strength and what TIM didn't count on was that merely being close enough to a Reaper that was alive would be enough to allow his indoctrination follow the course it should have those many years before.

Sorry for the length of this, but i tried not to miss anything out.

[Skorpion_hrv]

alperez wrote...

As for your last line, thinking the reapers are subconciously working for TIM, i assume you meant that as a joking response to me, if not its the dumbest thing i've heard on these forums ever.

Ha, ha, yes, it was a joking response but stranger things have happend.

[LiquidLogic2020]

Maybe it's you going against them? They could have something you need to help save earth but they want it to help save them selves so you decide to take it by force.