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[DaringMoosejaw]

GodWood wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...
They pretty clearly say that weapon no longer works.

If they can resurect a corpse they can fix a gun.

When 'fix a gun' relates to repairing a 37-million-year-old weapon with absolutely no other hints to that species' technology as their civilizations was wiped out, you might as well argue that they should build a time machine.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

The Alliance, and possibly the Council as well, are democratically elected governments, 

And that's a good thing? People vote for what's popular and easy in democracies, not what may be difficult, painful, and unavoidably necessary.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I don't attribute every bad action to Cerberus...

Just like I don't attribute every bad action to the Council

Just like I don't attribute every bad action to the Alliance

They've all done good things (for one reason or another) and bad things (for one reason or another). Cerberus as an organization can't continue to exist perpetually... but against the Reapers, they can be an asset.

[Rahmiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Icinix wrote...

They'll do anything for their vision of what the galaxy should be. Even if that means the most viscious and vile experiments, even if it means sacrifices of any cost (I bet TIM wouldn't sacrifice himself though).

Except he totally would and nearly did in Retribution.

See, I disagree with you.  If you're talking about that whole escape from the research facility where kai leng bailed him out of trouble.. he was not willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good.  He was out to save his own skin and probably rationalises that as being in humanity's own interest of keeping him alive.

I don't know any other moment when he was willing to risk his own life.  And I don't think he was willing to risk his own life.  He thought he could get to Grayson, kill him, and leave.  When it became apparent he wouldn't be able to get out with his own life unless he bailed, he bailed.

Shepard not trusting Cerberus makes complete sense, even if you're a renegade.  Just because your methods line up for one mission (saving colonists) does not mean that Shepard trusts them implicitly.  Shepard can be just as ruthless and only using TIM and Cerberus until his mission is complete.  Then goes on his merry little way.

Cerberus is not trustworthy for a whole host of reasons as Phaedon has pointed out.  Even Kai Leng figured he was going to be eliminated at the end of Retribution and he saved TIM's arse!  TIM is a master of deception, and he seems to have deceived a lot of players on this board.  Why try to eliminate Shepard after ME2?  He brought back Shepard to help him stop the Collectors.  Mission accomplished.  Shepard's expendable now.  That's how TIM works.

[Someone With Mass]

Memmahkth wrote...
He brought back Shepard to help him stop the Collectors.  Mission accomplished.  Shepard's expendable now.  That's how TIM works.

Not quite. He brought Shepard back to combat the Reapers, as he believed that humanity was doomed without him.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Except TIM's mission was never just the Collectors... it has always been the Reapers...

[ramdog7]

I like how everybody blows everything out of proportion

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Considering the favoritism presented in Mass Effect 2... it's not unreasonable to suspect that Cerberus is another display of wrapping around the Paragon choice without an upside to making a Renegade decision.

That said, I do look forward to seeing that trend change... and Casey's quote along with the response in this thread gives some hope to this.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:11 .

[Klijpope]

Doesn't the fact that TIM repeatedly lies to Shepard over the course of ME2 make his mealy mouthed post-hoc justifications of all the Cerberus clusterf**ks out there worth about as much as spit on the surface of the sun?

TIM is a classic con-artist, so good he can even delude himself. First chance I get I'm going to put bullet (or 5) in his head. Hope there's a renegade interrupt when we finally bust into his secret den.

"Shepar-" BLAM!

Modifié par Klijpope, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:26 .

[ODST 5723]

I recall that it was specifically stated by several people that I can't trust Cerberus. I recall that even Cerberus operatives note themselves as expendable and expect that TIM may have them killed.

I also recall this being said:
"Counterterror experts speculate Cerberus may have changed leadership with it recent shift to stockpiling ships, agents, and weapons. Whether "he", "she", or "they", the Illusive Man hides his finances behind shell companies. Few doubt he will kill anyone attempting to expose him."

I recall them experimenting brutal experiments with thresher maws, geth, rachni, thorian creepers, husks and biotics.

I recall them engaging in everything from smear campaigns to poisoning matriarchs so their biotics would become unstable to political assassinations.

I recall them threatening the security of the Migrant Fleet as well as kidnapping, torturing and killing their opponents.

I recall them subjecting children to any number of horrific experiments in order to unlock humanity's biotic potential.

I recall them subjecting people to experiments with Reaper tech.

I recall them killing people and lying to their relatives in order to use them against their enemies.

So even though they stopped the Collectors by resurrecting and supporting Shepard with 2 of the same people who helped stop a batarian plague on the Citadel, I don't see how their brownie points for those actions counteract all of the really unethical and in some cases, near-evil things they've done.

And given that their shift has been on stockpiling, it seems like they've been preparing for a war. That we haven't seen it doesn't mean that Cerberus was ever being straightforward with us or that TIM didn't spend his time talking with Shepard blowing strategically placed smoke around to get him to help out with one thing while TIM was working on something else entirely out of sight and under lock and key.

I see logic and lore supporting this, easily. And I don't know enough about ME3 yet to know if the Cerberus will be all that generic of an enemy.

[Bad King]

Akuze was an Alliance project, as was every other Cerberus operation prior to the split from the Alliance.

Modifié par Bad King, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:58 .

[Klijpope]

Because he's the Clouseau of evil geniuses. And his Cato quit.

[Bad King]

Klijpope wrote...

Because he's the Clouseau of evil geniuses. And his Cato quit.

Cato= Kai Leng

[Klijpope]

Bad King wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

Because he's the Clouseau of evil geniuses. And his Cato quit.

Cato= Kai Leng

Ah, you're right.

Hold on, does this make Shepard = Dreyfus?

[ODST 5723]

Saphra, you'd have made a great juror for the Anthony trial.

The little that they have done is entirely overshadowed by all of the things they've done to weaken the galaxy and to try to position humanity at the top.

That TIM was transformed by a Reaper artifact, can apparently sense indoctrination and other Reaper artifacts, can understand languages no one else can and yet has done nothing to date to come out in public to support Shepard's claims of a Reaper invasion signal that he's not about helping to save the galaxy from the Reapers.

Even if he is, his actions seem specifically calculated to get him what he wants, which seems to have been the Collector Base. It doesn't sound like it was actually about saving humanity. It was about acquiring more Reaper tech. And it seems like he knows something that he's not telling the rest of the universe when he's had proof for a long time of their existence.

Instead, engaging in research, plots and schemes to support ideals that came out of a manifesto which points towards human dominance at the expense of the rest of the galaxy. Led by a man that's done nothing to unite the galaxy against a common enemy even though he's had ample time to take those actions.

No one yet has given me any reason why Cerberus should actually be trusted. You say they've been more helpful. I say they've done more damage to the galaxy than they've helped, especially given what they know and how that knowledge could be used. Instead, choosing to squirrel it away.

TIM's done nothing to this point to warrant any sort of trust. He lied to Shepard at his own leisure several times under the guise of being benevolent and having the best interests of humanity in his heart, not bothering to show Shepard the bigger picture, if there is one, so that he can manipulate and control the situation.

I'm hoping that TIM isn't an even more maniacal version of Jacob Hargreave

Modifié par ODST 5723, 13 juillet 2011 - 12:08 .

[alperez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

None of that does anything to explain why I can't trust Cerberus to fight the Reapers when they have so far been a lot more helpful than the Council or Alliance ever were.

So Knowing what kind of an organisation Cerberus is and what kind of a person TIM is does nothing to explain to you why you shouldn't trust either?

Your reasoning seems to be that because TIM brought Shepard back and helped in taking out the collectors and because a known liar and manipulator said that his goal was to take out the reapers that you should ignore every other single piece of evidence and just go with their word that their goal is the same as yours.

Not only is that extremely naive imo but its missing out on key components that should have given you at least pause to consider if Cerberus was actually helping for the reason you think they were helping,

We don't know the exact reason why TIM brought Shepard back or why he seemed so eager to take out the collectors all we have is the word of someone who is a liar and master manipulator. Like a chessmaster TIM could be thinking 10 moves in advance and like a good chessmaster in order to win sometimes you have to make moves that are unpredictable and that lose you some pieces.

Thats not even taking into account whether or not TIM was actually calling the shots or was in fact indoctrinated or in the process of being indoctrinated, the reapers may have been controlling him without his knowledge for a very long time, isn't that how indoctrination works.

Throughout history there are examples of people working together towards a common goal or for strategic advantage, sometimes one sides overall goal may not be the same as anothers and they are just working together for that strategic advantage. There are also cases of the enemy of my enemy is my friend and in a lot of these cases once the original enemy has been defeated the 2 sides resort back to their original enemy status.

While at times the council and the alliance have not helped, hindered or dragged their heels without taking action compared to cerberus they are almost lillywhite, just because until now they haven't helped significantly in stopping the reapers doesn't mean they won't or in the end they will be shown to be the greates allies you can have. Once again history shows that not every time action is needed to be taking governments immediately take that action.

In short the reason you can't trust Cerberus is because they and TIM are untrustworthy, all the evidence you have shows this to be true so if you ignore it because you take their word and believe them just because of events that you don't know the actual reasoning for, then if it bites you in the ass whose fault is that?

[ME-ParaShep]

Memmahkth wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Icinix wrote...

They'll do anything for their vision of what the galaxy should be. Even if that means the most viscious and vile experiments, even if it means sacrifices of any cost (I bet TIM wouldn't sacrifice himself though).

Except he totally would and nearly did in Retribution.

See, I disagree with you.  If you're talking about that whole escape from the research facility where kai leng bailed him out of trouble.. he was not willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good.  He was out to save his own skin and probably rationalises that as being in humanity's own interest of keeping him alive.

I don't know any other moment when he was willing to risk his own life.  And I don't think he was willing to risk his own life.  He thought he could get to Grayson, kill him, and leave.  When it became apparent he wouldn't be able to get out with his own life unless he bailed, he bailed.

Shepard not trusting Cerberus makes complete sense, even if you're a renegade.  Just because your methods line up for one mission (saving colonists) does not mean that Shepard trusts them implicitly.  Shepard can be just as ruthless and only using TIM and Cerberus until his mission is complete.  Then goes on his merry little way.

Cerberus is not trustworthy for a whole host of reasons as Phaedon has pointed out.  Even Kai Leng figured he was going to be eliminated at the end of Retribution and he saved TIM's arse!  TIM is a master of deception, and he seems to have deceived a lot of players on this board.  Why try to eliminate Shepard after ME2?  He brought back Shepard to help him stop the Collectors.  Mission accomplished.  Shepard's expendable now.  That's how TIM works.

To paraphrase:

Tim (Paragon ending): Nuuuuuu! Shepard! What have you done?! You bastard, you destroyed the base! *thinks to himself* now we must kill you*

Tim (Renegade ending): Yeeeees! Shepard! You performed admirably. I knew Cerberus could count on you to get the job done. You helped me stop the Collectors attacks on humanity. With the base intact, we could change the universe for the greater good! *thinks to himself* But since we have the Collector base and that you'll only attempt to thwart our plans in the future, we must kill you

[ODST 5723]

I don't trust the Council. They haven't had my back on anything, ever.

[DrNavi]

Gixxer6Rdr wrote...

Yeah yeah... it also looks like people are slapping blinders on to enable Cerberus Lovin'. They're the ME version of every dispicable black-ops group/villainous Science team ever. And yet they still have their defenders. Neato, defend away. I hate and don't trust them because they have no moral compass, no sense of right or wrong. Only results or not. They remind me of advanced future-****s with their elitism and lack of humanity.

That's my unchangeable opinion and I'm stickin' to it.

I think people's opinion is that its horrible but the reapers are worse and its better to be allied with Cerberus until the reaper threat is dealt with since they have provided you with the most help so far

[Hydrosphere]

hhh89 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
Explain Pragia then.

Rogue cell.

I edited my post explaining that this isn't necessary a good think. There are already two projects that TIM didn't control completely, Pragia and Overlord. I don't know if something like that can't happen in the future.
And about TIM, he implanted Reaper technology in a Cerberus former agent in a book. That doesn't speak too good about thim

TIM also told the science team they had 3 days to study the effects then ordered Kai Leng to put Grayson down. But then Anderson and Kahlee Mary-Sue had to eff that up and almost caused the reapers to gained valuable intel and dooming the galaxy.

Pragia Went rogue. TIM ordered the project shut down and all survivors were taken care of and sent of to the Alliance. Was it eff'd? Sure but can't blame TIM for that.

Overlord also went rogue. They weren't getting results so TIM ordered the project to shut down. Archer made the call to turn his bro into cripple, not TIM. If I recall TIM supported the Paragon option for that quest.

[Hydrosphere]

Phaedon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Dozens? No are exaggerating. Pragia and Teltin went rogue, two operations in the span of twenty years. Both were dealt with before serious or irrepairable damage could be done. Otherwise Cerberus has been very useful. They saved the Citadel, saved humanity, and saved Shepard.

-Attempting to steal Eezo from SSV Geneva. Failed. All operatives captured or killed, Cerberus incriminated.
-Experiments with Rachni, Listening Post Alpha and Theta. Failed. Accidentally unleashed.
-Ascension Project. Infiltration failed, operative abandoned Cerberus.
-Attack on the Migrant Fleet. Failed, Quarians kicked their ass.
-Pragia, Teltin, cell goes rogue, all test subjects die, Subject zero flees. Failed.
-Overlord, cell goes rogue, all operatives die, due to retarded medical professional not realizing that people's minds don't work very well when they are awake for days. Failed.
-Retribution. Most Cerberus bases raided, good part of econic/politcal cell detained. Failed?
-ME1. Possible failure on three stations, as well as husk experiments.
-Lazarus Project. Technically a success, with all operatives but two dying in the process. Incompetence.
-Reaper IFF Project. All operatives get indoctrinated. Failure.

-

So what? We're in a fighting for survival here, not in competition for the Nobel Peace Prize.

All the morality in the galaxy won't save us from extinction.

The whole point is that Cerberus is basically shouting at you: We? To become traitors? Only if it's profitable!

And that's because they don't have morals. Not trustworthy.

You need to realize that Cerberus doesn't even need to be indoctrinated to start shooting at you.

What, like all the posters here with Sole Survivor Shepards who want to destroy Cerberus becuase of Akuze, even despite Cerberus being the only thing that saved them and humanity in ME2? I'm not biting.

Not just Akuze, not just the paragon ending, and not just Retribution.

Actually not all test subject die. The survivors are given some drug that gives them amnesia or erases their memories and then sent to the Alliance. The sciencist are then forcefully retired for effing up so badly.