411 réponses à ce sujet

[AesirMan]

Which I might add to what CRYoz1 statement is well thats flat BS... no actually I am agreeing with parts of what he said. The whole grey choices. A grey choice is JOINING Cerberus. Yes they do these vile experiments... or "colorfully pragmatic" ones.((but thats besides the case))

Cerberus understands the reapers exist AND they are coming. They knew way before other races did. Now what Cerberus did was something the ****'s did in 1940's. They took the kid gloves off on scientific progress. They did morally wrong and grey things but advanced science faster than if we were to take a ethical approach.

Cerberus realizes Hey we have like 4 years... We NEED to ADVANCE NOW. So they find ways hopefully to mentally dominate the geth. Turn ALREADY DEAD bodies into zerg troops....
Advance Human biotic potential to Asari or beyond levels... this is what they are going for because SURVIVAL is at stake. Now the average cerberus operative doesn't know this... but TIM knows survival is at stake.


I think people most of all fail to see this:
So they realize that they are living on borrowed time and that morals can be debated AFTER the universal genocidal invasion is thwarted. The winners right the history books and also in every race there is a group that does those morally grey things... like mass murder ((causing hundred of thousands of still-born babies IS mass murder/war crime/crime against sentient life.)) But still A renegade is not a thug...and a paragon is not naive.

A Paragon is someone that refuses to comprimise their integrity and morals (generally) and a Renegade is someone that takes emotion and looks at the end result. Yes there are other parts to renegade and paragon but thats another story.

The fact of the matter is one SHOULD have the choice to JOIN Cerberus. Would Cerberus truely kill one of its greatest agents? I don't think TIM is that dense. Lets see I am Lawful-Moronic... We have Shepard here... He collected fragments of super tech from the collector vessel when he boarded it, still trusting me to make the right decision after it was over as well as stealing tons of intel and files on reaper and collector tech. Taking over a Collector Stronghold in the Galactic Core! Allow us to maybe reverse engineer a reaper IFF so Cerberus has a super stronghold. He took out the Shadow Broker who was causing problems. He allowed the DA to be destroyed allowing more human dominance. He saved and safeguarded cerberus data from a fallen agent that would cripple cerberus operations... He defended Cerberus amongst Aliens and humans in his crew. He was able to keep Cerberus projects that got out of hand and fixed them all while keeping the research going... So yeah Lets kill the loyal agent... after we spent Billions of credits bringing him back to life and rebuilding his cruiser AND finding great potentials for crew members.  Yeah kill the loyal agent off sure.....

((overlord renegade choice and your damn right I did that choice and will do it each and every game. The needs of 1 do not outweigh the sobs and tears of 5 million mothers losing their children)) See that is a morally grey choice... but people think they are going to abuse it Cerberus will. But since it ONLY AFFECTS Geth that somehow Cerberus will do something evil with it. Well they might do something "evil" with it but only well to the Geth and well Humanity now has a super ally/minions.

So if my Shep gave Cerberus the benefit of the doubt, fell madly in love with Miranda, did everything Cerberus asked of and realizing that as a renegade shep that Cerberus is no different really than the Salarian STG and that the council are a bunch of racists still... That being a humanity first sort of Shep that somehow I will have to fight Cerberus the organization my Shep sees as humanity's best hope?

Clearly I hope they make multiple start areas based on your Sheps choice in ME 1 and 2. ((If someone was pro-human pro cerberus anti council they'd have the chance to start as an Alliance Officer or Cerberus Agent. If they were Pro-Council Pro-Unity Anti-Cerberus then they could start as an Alliance Officer or Council Spectre.

I believe Laecraft and I are of close to the same mindset.

Fact of the matter is that Cerberus does what NEEDS to be done. One can't advance fast enough technologically without those "renegade" choices. Take Overlord for example... you knock the research back 10 years... reapers come way before 10 years... if one decided to paragon choice the geth and try and brainwash... and that somehow BACKFIRES well low and behold we made the renegade choice here and we have Human Geth Dominate to counteract the Reapers version of geth dominate.




Its not silly to give the base to Cerberus as they are the ones who actually have the SPINE to use it. And don't give me that indoctrination crap. EDI and other VI and AI's can just data mine the heck out of it. Then bring Loki/Fenris/Ymir mechs to scan, dismantle, pack, salvage and also destroy the automated defense systems((also salvage it). ((This course of action takes away the threat of indoctrination accidental or otherwise.))

But somehow I don't see people doing the logical thing when it comes to quarantine and salvage a potentially dangerous location.

Modifié par AesirMan, 13 juillet 2011 - 03:57 .

[AesirMan]

"I've seen countless times statements like "Between the Earth and Tali, I'd choose Tali" - I'm greatly relieved that those people are not in charge of saving the galaxy."

Oh but they are... in an alternate universe where shepard falls in love with Tali and is willing to sacrifice Earth for a bit of loving from Tali... That Tali must be something "in the sack"

But that brings up a whole different thing... will BW punish the lack of morals a renegade has and the naive nature a paragon has.... But this topic is about Cerberus and so my bad for the possible derail So... back on topic.

I was going to add more to my wall of text but it was hit pretty much on the nail...

Would you trust the Batarians to come to your aid after committing mass murder of 350k of them? Or would you trust the Turians to aid you (People still angry from the first contact war)? Would you trust the mind controlling rachni not to betray you? Would you trust the Geth who had been brainwashed by the reapers before to well not betray you and fall under the brainwash again?

Or would you trust the Pro-Humanity group that puts humanity first in its dealings to defend Earth?

People don't bring up Akuze... there are so many things that one can actually STUDY from that. Marine Tactics vs thresher maws, the survival rate, new recruits (the survivors) One can actually study how to summon and control thresher maws so they can be used to attack enemy strongpoints.


I have said before after the universal apocalyptic invasion is over... that is when one can start to deal with morality... I think Krogan Shaman hit this on the nail. Tradition (morality/Laws) Always get pushed aside when it comes to survival.

Hence why I think there should be 2-3 routes Shepard can go. He can go the Spectre route, Alliance Military Route or the Cerberus route. Or just a spectre / cerberus route and both routes work within the Alliance Military.

[alperez]

laecraft

You trust Cerberus to fight the reapers and to protect earth and humanity despite the fact that they are untrustworthy and being led by a lying manipulator?

The mere fact of their past actions or the countless times TIM lies and manipulates Shepard should be enough to question whether or not they are a trustworthy ally.

We have Tim's word and supposed agenda that says they put Humanity first and want to stop the reapers, but considering who the word is coming from everything he says should be looked at with Suspicion.

For example we don't know for certain whether or not TIM is indoctrinated, some of us believe he is and has been for a long time, others refuse to accept any evidence of this and cling to TIM having another agenda and a masterplan to defeat the reapers.

But say he is and has been indoctrinated for a long time, then every action he's taken would need to be scruitinised under those conditions.

Setting up an organisation that through nefearious means puts humanity first could be an attempt to destablise relations throughout the universe making it more difficult for all the races to come together to fight a reaper invasion.

Performing experiments on humans could be akin to collectors collecting genetically different races for study.

Rebuilding Shepard could be fixing a mistake made by the collectors when they killed Shepard a Shepard who countless times Harbinger seemed to want alive for some reason.

Or these events could have been the last acts of TIM's conscious mind before he falls completely to indoctrination, Saren basically does and says things to try and stop his own indoctrination and is looking at ways to delay or stop it completely, so couldn't this also be the case with TIM.

If you were in fact indoctrinated wouldn't that make you a sleeper agent for the reapers in certain conditions and if that was the case would you A. tell everyone your entire plans or B. tell people what they want to hear.

Allies are great and i hope to have many in me3, what i wouldn't like is for one of those allies to stab me in the back and Cerberus is an organisation that stabs everyone in the back eventually.

At the end of the day everything Cerberus has done, everything they say and every goal they supposedly have comes from TIM and TIM lies, manipulates as a matter of routine. Does he do this because he is indoctrinated and doesn't really know it yet, quite possibly or does he do it because he is fighting the indoctrination and trying everything he can to stop himself being completely taken over, quite possibly.

I think without the whole indoctrination angle there was enough evidence there that cerberus shouldn't be trusted and would eventually turn on you, when you add indoctrination into the equation it becomes even more certain this would happen imo.

But just because they have said they have the same goals as Shepard and just because one or two of their actions helped Shepard, the fact remains that TIM is in charge, he calls the shots and he is a lying manipulative sod, if you think he's trustworthy then thats your perogative, for me its a no brainer.

[marshalleck]

laecraft wrote...

Problem is, I can't fathom the circumstances under which killing Shepard would somehow bring us victory in the war with the Reapers. In fact, it's the very opposite. Hence the mystery behind Cerberus' actions.

Shepard is indoctrinated, and (s)he has clout with many different factions, which is really a very dangerous place to have a sleeper agent. 

Simple as that.

[HTTP 404]

Im convinced that Cerberus was more concerned with stopping the collectors in me2 than stopping Reapers. I may go so far as that TIM was indoctrinated then, but still had enough freedom of mind to want to perserve humanity by stopping collector abduction of humans.

[Infestation]

Sure, TIM kills off the Collectors(Reaper pawns) so that humans can be the new Reaper pawns. Maybe so. Maybe not. Salvation through destruction.

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...

laecraft wrote...

Problem is, I can't fathom the circumstances under which killing Shepard would somehow bring us victory in the war with the Reapers. In fact, it's the very opposite. Hence the mystery behind Cerberus' actions.

Shepard is indoctrinated, and (s)he has clout with many different factions, which is really a very dangerous place to have a sleeper agent. 

Simple as that.

If your saying that Cerberus believes Shepard is indoctrinated despite being indoctrinated either themselves or just TIM then i completely agree with you.

However if you actually believe that Cerberus or TIM aren't indoctrinated and instead its Shepard who is and thats the reason why cerberus are after Shepard then i couldn't disagree more.

Rather than accept that the bad guys you face in me3 are actually bad guys and that these bad guys justification for doing bad things is going to be revealed that they and TIM or TIM alone is indoctrinated, you think bioware would go the other route and have the protagonist we've been playing for 3 games revealed to be actually the bad guy all along?

That's either extreme Cerberus love to the point of delusion or expecting bioware to make a choice that eliminates and diminishes everything you the protagonist have done to the point of ridicolousness.

We get to a certain point in the game realise that all of this time or for some of it we've actually been playing a tool of the reapers and you think people would rejoice and accept that their Shepard wasn't actually thier Shepard at all?

All for the sake of justifying why bad guys who may have been good for a time  in me2 (still don't know why they may have helped as we don't have the full story) are once again bad guys. I'm sorry if thats what you think then your missing key elements of storytelling in biowares video games.

The hero is the hero, the bad guys are the bad guys and the only way the hero becomes the bad guy is if you the player decide that's how you want to play. Bioware won't make the protagonist be the one who's been indoctrinated all along just for the sake of a twist or to show Cerberus in a good light.

It's bad storytelling and would please such a small minority and annoy such a vast majority that it would be sucidal for them to even attempt something like that. This isn't a story where an anti hero appeals to the majority of the people playing the game, it might appeal to some but not to others and considering Bioware like to leave those choices up to the player and have them finish the story how they wish to finish it, it makes absolutely no sense.

[AesirMan]

Simple reason why I trust TIM. I trust him because he is willing to lie to shepard or omit things to get the mission done. I actually trusted him MORE after the collector ship than before. Because he walked his talk about Humanity first. He makes no ands ifs or buts about it. He is willing to sacrifice to kill the collectors and stop them and stop the reaper threat. Very few can make those calls that are necessary.


For example we don't know for certain whether or not TIM is indoctrinated, some of us believe he is and has been for a long time, others refuse to accept any evidence of this and cling to TIM having another agenda and a masterplan to defeat the reapers.

For example we don't know for certain whether or not captain/counselar Anderson is indoctrinated... If TIM was indoctrinated he would of had shepard sedated and returned to the collectors on a silver platter...

Setting up an organisation that through nefearious means puts humanity first could be an attempt to destablise relations throughout the universe making it more difficult for all the races to come together to fight a reaper invasion.

Yes and the Salarian STG is also a front for the reapers instead of just looking out for Salarian Interests.



Alperez here is my response to the indoctrinated/rebuilding... It makes NO SENSE... We rebuild him... we keep him sedated and we send him on his way.... We pass a drug in his drink after freedom's progress or right before... and tah-dah.

[AesirMan]

Or could it be that TIM is not indoctrinated but a good portion of Cerberus is and they are trying to keep control?

Also I think its bad storytelling if one is given the choice in 2 to be a Cerberus Loyalist, why one still can't continue to be one in 3.... One can stay true to the Council or the Alliance from moving 1-2 why can't one be a Cerberus Loyalist moving from 2 to 3...?

Modifié par AesirMan, 13 juillet 2011 - 07:11 .

[Dr JewLove]

if it turned out to be that shepard was indoctrinated all along then........ thats some m. night shamamlalam twist!!!!! i would be leik wot teh hell man?!

[alperez]

AesirMan

In terms of the rebuilt Shepard, firstly remember what happened, the base came under attack, people died, they may have had Shepard in exactly the position they wanted only to be forced to move him because of this attack.

Once Shepard woke up that could have been a game changer, to try and take Shepard out would reveal things that maybe they didn't want revealed. So instead of just recapturing Shepard and risking 1. Shepard being Shepard and killing everyone or 2. Shepard dying rather than being captured, you play along and set up situations where the same end could be acheived without revealing your path in it.

Think of it like this a sleeper agent not wanting their agenda/identity revealed but not wanting to take out the protagonist and risk both these things happening instead arranges some other way to take out the protagonist. Its been done countless times in movies and literature why not do the same in a game?

The collectors ship could be exactly the way you perceive it or could have been an attempt to achieve this very outcome.

Comparing the STG a government sanctioned program with Cerberus is clutching at straws, one does its governments bidding and falls under its direct control, the other is a terrorist organisation receiving its orders from a possibly indoctrinated person.

As for using Andersone being indoctrinated to counter my saying that TIM is well one has evidence supporting it and the other is your attempt to nullify my theory without using any facts to back up your argument.

Finally yes they could have just put a drug in Shepard's drink or come up with another way of handing Shepard over to the reapers/collectors if thats what they intended. Bond could also have been shot numerous times and not left in a position where he could escape and thwart the plans of Blofeld.

Bad guys do stupid things in order for good guys to eventually win or save the day, not exactly a new concept. Besides if they had gone that route we'd have played the shortest game ever, Shepard dies, Shepard wakes up, Shepard is drugged and handed over to the reapers, game over screen.

Thats without even taking into account that indoctrination doesn't always work completely, it takes time for someone to be completely indoctrinated and during this time they exhibit free will. So some of what TIM does may be examples of this just as some of what Saren did was the same thing.

[alperez]

AesirMan wrote...

Or could it be that TIM is not indoctrinated but a good portion of Cerberus is and they are trying to keep control?

Also I think its bad storytelling if one is given the choice in 2 to be a Cerberus Loyalist, why one still can't continue to be one in 3.... One can stay true to the Council or the Alliance from moving 1-2 why can't one be a Cerberus Loyalist moving from 2 to 3...?

I do agree with you on the first point, that it could in fact be Cerberus and not TIM that's completely indoctrinated even though i think the evidence shows it as being TIM.

As for bad storytelling, well me2 has that covered, despite how some people feel about Cerberus they have no option other than to work with them, they are cut off from the alliance and council despite everything that happened in me1 and no matter what they wish they have to work with cerberus without major questioning. We had to live with it despite not liking it, so if a cerberus loyalist has to live with the same scenario in me3 or has to fight and destroy them no matter what then isn; turnaround fairplay?

Cerberus were never supposed to be a side you took, the fact you did is your own perogative but they were only ever supposed to be a stopgap until the main event and you were never supposed to like or agree with their agenda. Did the writers not show this well enough, perhaps, or did they simply underestimate people seeing what was always their intention?

Maybe in me2 we're supposed to reluctantly work with cerberus while knowing we will get the chance to make them pay for everything they did in me1 when me3 comes along? maybe that was their intention and they just underestimated that some people would enjoy and wish to continue working with this evil organisation and that instead of showing Cerberus to be evil inc. they were creating a situation where some people would agree with thier philosophy and their actions.

Or maybe just maybe they have something else planned and we just won't know until we play me3.

[alperez]

Dr JewLove wrote...

if it turned out to be that shepard was indoctrinated all along then........ thats some m. night shamamlalam twist!!!!! i would be leik wot teh hell man?!

Personally i don't think they will go that route.

Modifié par alperez, 13 juillet 2011 - 08:38 .

[Brenon Holmes]

<Discussion moved to PMs>

Modifié par Brenon Holmes, 13 juillet 2011 - 08:44 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

None of that does anything to explain why I can't trust Cerberus to fight the Reapers when they have so far been a lot more helpful than the Council or Alliance ever were.

That's because you're so naive that you believe Cerberus' own words down to every letter without reasonable questioning.

[SirDoctorofTARDIS]

Doesn't the simple fact that they are now trying to kill Shepard prove that they can't be trusted?

[Someone With Mass]

Awesomness wrote...

Doesn't the simple fact that they are now trying to kill Shepard prove that they can't be trusted?

But don't you understand that it isn't the real Cerberus? It goes against their image of awesomeness, and therefore it should be treated like it doesn't exist. Because ignorance is bliss.

[Bnol]

Awesomness wrote...

Doesn't the simple fact that they are now trying to kill Shepard prove that they can't be trusted?

We don't know exactly why they are attacking Shepard now.  The demo that we saw was a mission to, presumably, save a fertile female Krogan.  Maybe Cerberus just wants to weaken all the other species future so that in case we do beat the reapers then humanity is dominant, or not in a terrible position considering the devastation of Earth.  Or possibly to make them feel the war on their homeplanets to get them to do something.  Obviously doesn't mean we necessarily trust them, but just might not be as simple as indoctrination.

[The Elder King]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Awesomness wrote...

Doesn't the simple fact that they are now trying to kill Shepard prove that they can't be trusted?

But don't you understand that it isn't the real Cerberus? It goes against their image of awesomeness, and therefore it should be treated like it doesn't exist. Because ignorance is bliss.

I don't like Cerberus, but the fact that TIM joined the Reapers makes no sense to me, if he isn't indoctrinated (which I can't exclude). If Bioware decided to make TIM going against Shepard without joining the Reapers, that makes sense (afterall Shep, willingly or not,  gave the Alliance a ship that TIM built with a lot of money, with the whole Lazarus Cells and EDI which can be interrogated about Cerberus, and in some case Shep refused to give him the CB.).
For now, the only theory I can accept about the Cerberus-Reapers alliance is the indoctrination of TIM. Otherwise, I can't understand this. In the ME2 intro, when he talked with Miranda, he clearly spoke about stopping the Reapers.Now he joined them.

[Dave of Canada]

Awesomness wrote...

Doesn't the simple fact that they are now trying to kill Shepard prove that they can't be trusted?

So... it's fine if it contradicts everything established in the previous other two games and the novels, including the comic book... because they've attacked Shepard?

[alperez]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Awesomness wrote...

Doesn't the simple fact that they are now trying to kill Shepard prove that they can't be trusted?

So... it's fine if it contradicts everything established in the previous other two games and the novels, including the comic book... because they've attacked Shepard?

Up to the point we deal with Saren in me1, he was according to the council a model spectre who did many things to help the universe. Its only when we get more info about him we find this isn't actually the case and that Saren was indoctrinated for a long time. When your fleshing out a story and backstory to lead up to a point in time sometimes things can contradict themselves until you see the full story.

Anakin skywalker becomes Darth Vader, at an earlier stage of his devolpement Anakin did things that Vader wouldn't do and later on Vader does things that Anakin never would have done, when all the info is taken together you can see why Anakin was how he was and why he became what he became, why can it be different with Cerberus and TIM?

We have evidence that Cerberus did unquestionable things in me1, in me2 we have Cerberus do something that may be good, in me3 we have Cerberus apparently trying to kill Shepard for reasons not known only speculated. All of this can fit in together once we have all the info at our disposal. Some of us think we know why its happening and that its been on the cards right from the first mention of Cerberus in ME1.

We could be wrong or it could be something completely different, but the people who seem to think its a giant leap seem to ignore every single piece of evidence that suggests it was always coming. Cerberus loyalist consider Cerberus being bad guys to be a retcon while those who dislike Cerberus and always have feel its always been on the cards.

[Sauronych]

I'm just gonna wait for an in-game explanation. Surely it can't be more nonsensical than the human reaper.

[alperez]

Heres one other little titbit to throw into the equation, from the description of the new novel.

"The only way David and Kahlee can prove their suspicions about the Reapers is by exposing Cerberus, the fanatical paramilitary group devoted to human preservation at any cost, and its involvement in the experiments. But the Illusive Man, leader of Cerberus, will stop at nothing to protect his secrets".

Shepard knows a lot of those very same secrets and that could be another reason why Cerberus is trying to kill Shepard.

[Dave of Canada]

alperez wrote...

 All of this can fit in together once we have all the info at our disposal. Some of us think we know why its happening and that its been on the cards right from the first mention of Cerberus in ME1.

So... it's been in the cards that Cerberus is working with the Reapers by actively working against the Reapers, the entire reason for Cerberus to exist is to combat the Reapers and that they've brought Shepard back to fight the Reapers?