411 réponses à ce sujet

[habitat 67]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Phaedon wrote...


You can't indoctrinate the Alliance as a whole. They are... blah blah blah blah, I totally missed the point.

You people really drive me nuts sometimes.

shut up.

Anyways, of course Cerberus will be indoctrinated. They've been messing around with experimntal sh** for years now.

Modifié par habitat 67, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

habitat 67 wrote...

Anyways, of course Cerberus will be indoctrinated. They've been messing around with experimntal sh** for years now.

In seperate facilities, unknown of any other cells while TIM operates in an isolated area that few people know of it's location. And he doesn't participate in the research.

And they're now all apparently indocrinated somehow?

[alperez]

Dave of Canada

Like i've said in numerous posts, indoctrination works gradually and until a person is fully indoctrinated they do retain some free will, Saren did so why not TIM also.

Some of Tim's actions can be explained as someone in the process of indoctrination using their free will to stop themselves being further indoctrinated.

Tim like Saren before him could have been getting more and more indoctrinated over time, his ideas could have all been his own or some could have been reaper influenced which could explain why certain actions seem at odds with others.

In terms of the actions you spell out, well we still don't know exactly why those actions were taken and while on the face of it some seem to be the actions of a TIM working against the reapers some also could be TIM being influenced by them into doing thier bidding, perhaps this will be explained in me3 hmmm.

1. Brought Shepard back either because he was told too (reapers love them some shepard, remember Harbinger) or because he was fighting to save himself from being indoctrinated (remember saren tried to limit his own indoctrination also).

2. Gave shepard a ship could have been to take out the collectors (someone he felt where a threat to his own place come the reaperlution) or another attempt to stop his own indoctrination.

3. see 2.

Revealation

1. was expermenting with reaper technology to see what would happen or because exposure to reaper technology hurries along indoctrination and the reapers suggested it to him and made him think it was his idea.

2. Ran away because he was scared or because once again it was TIM's conscious self fighting the inevitable.

3. Assited in the death of Grayson because he was fighting indoctrination or jealous Grayson was taking his rightful place.

The reapers are evidently bad at thier plans, hence the failure of 2 of them, Sovereign seems to have no contact with the collectors nor does Saren so the right hand doesn't always know what they are doing.

We're taking about machines who in arrival have Shepard but rather than kill Shepard they leave him in a position where escape and thwarting of plans is possible, think of the reapers as Blofeld and Shepard as Bond, bad guys do stupid things.

[The Elder King]

Phaedon wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Oh, and something some people seem to be forgetting.

The Alliance, and possibly the Council as well, are democratically elected governments, not mere organizations.

EDIT: Anyway, I'll be back tomorrow. I can compile a list of Cerberus' crimes and failures, if you wish.

Being an organization doesn't mean they they are evil though.

Doing immoral acts does mean that they are evil, normative ethics-wise.

I am not saying that Cerberus isn't evil or immoral. I am saying that being a "mere organization" doesn't mean that they are evil or immoral. They are evil/immoral for their experiments, projects and mission (though I don't think all of their missions, just as not every Cerberus operative is evil, like the Lazarus Cell on the Normandy shown), not because they are a organization not elected.
And even if they are evil/bad/enemies, it makes no sense for them to join the Reapers (when TIM knows that they want to process most of humans to create a human Reaper), withouth the indoctrination explanation, which is a bad solution in my opinion.

[Isaidlunch]

habitat 67 wrote...

shut up.

Anyways, of course Cerberus will be indoctrinated. They've been messing around with experimntal sh** for years now.

I refuse to believe Cerberus are so incompetent that the the whole organization would fall to indoctrination especially after the Derelict Reaper incident (which was pretty silly itself).

Modifié par Kazanth, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:36 .

[habitat 67]

Dave of Canada wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

Anyways, of course Cerberus will be indoctrinated. They've been messing around with experimntal sh** for years now.

In seperate facilities, unknown of any other cells while TIM operates in an isolated area that few people know of it's location. And he doesn't participate in the research.

And they're now all apparently indocrinated somehow?

They all drank from the same water supply and then BAM, indoctrinated.

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

Anyways, of course Cerberus will be indoctrinated. They've been messing around with experimntal sh** for years now.

In seperate facilities, unknown of any other cells while TIM operates in an isolated area that few people know of it's location. And he doesn't participate in the research.

And they're now all apparently indocrinated somehow?

While I don't like the indoctrination solution, if Bioware is going to this solution (which we don't know), I think that TIM is being indoctrinated for what it happened in the comic. Though I didn't read it, so I don't know for sure if it's possible.

[habitat 67]

Kazanth wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...

shut up.

Anyways, of course Cerberus will be indoctrinated. They've been messing around with experimntal sh** for years now.

I refuse to believe Cerberus are so incompetent that the the whole organization would fall to indoctrination especially after the Derelict Reaper incident (which was pretty silly itself).

Why?
Cerberus' incompetence has been well known throughout two games now.
When the sole leader of an organization morphs into corruption and then is indoctrinated, you could expect a rapid infection amongst its minions.

[Dave of Canada]

hhh89 wrote...

While I don't like the indoctrination solution, if Bioware is going to this solution (which we don't know), I think that TIM is being indoctrinated for what it happened in the comic. Though I didn't read it, so I don't know for sure if it's possible.

*really poor summary ahead*

Thing happened, TIM got hit with the Reaper artifact that huskified everybody else except for him because he's that badass. The artifact begins to give orders to the husks and we find out Saren's brother is indocrinated or something, TIM intervenes and manages to destroy the Reaper artifact and stop Saren's brother from turning all Turians on Palaven into husks.

TIM creates Cerberus shortly after and says that he doesn't know what the Reapers are, though he'll be ready to fight them to survive when they come.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:46 .

[Someone With Mass]

habitat 67 wrote...
Why?
Cerberus' incompetence has been well known throughout two games now.
When the sole leader of an organization morphs into corruption and then is indoctrinated, you could expect a rapid infection amongst its minions.

Or he's lost control over his minions entirely because they're indoctrinated.

Which wouldn't surprise me at all, considering how much care and protection TIM has been giving the operations over the course of the games and the books.

That is, none. Other than Shepard's project and maybe Gillian's...none.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 13 juillet 2011 - 10:53 .

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

While I don't like the indoctrination solution, if Bioware is going to this solution (which we don't know), I think that TIM is being indoctrinated for what it happened in the comic. Though I didn't read it, so I don't know for sure if it's possible.

*really poor summary ahead*

Thing happened, TIM got hit with the Reaper artifact that huskified everybody else except for him because he's that badass. The artifact begins to give orders to the husks and we find out Saren's brother is indocrinated or something, TIM intervenes and manages to destroy the Reaper artifact and stop Saren's brother from turning all Turians on Palaven into husks.

TIM creates Cerberus shortly after and says that he doesn't know what the Reapers are, though he'll be ready to fight them to survive when they come.

Thank you. So as I thought, TIM was always against the Reapers.

[Isaidlunch]

habitat 67 wrote...

Why?
Cerberus' incompetence has been well known throughout two games now.
When the sole leader of an organization morphs into corruption and then is indoctrinated, you could expect a rapid infection amongst its minions.

I'm worried that they'll turn Cerberus from incompetent to plain stupid. It would have to be written extremely well for it to be believable and I don't expect that from the writers. How would the entire organization be around a Reaper artifact long enough for indoctrination to kick in? How would the members not catch on what was happening after the Derelict Reaper incident? There's simply too many questions and I don't think it could be pulled off without making Cerberus the biggest clowns of the Mass Effect universe.

[Phaedon]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

If TIM isn't a great antagonist, then who is?

The Reapers destroying the galaxy and turning entire civilizations against each other.

So, instead of going with the formula that worked in ME, where you have an enemy that is "human" and you can hate, along with the much bigger antagonist who is unreachable, emotionally, you want to go with the one in ME2? Why?

hhh89 wrote...

I am not saying that Cerberus isn't evil or immoral. I am saying that being a "mere organization" doesn't mean that they are evil or immoral. They are evil/immoral for their experiments, projects and mission (though I don't think all of their missions, just as not every Cerberus operative is evil, like the Lazarus Cell on the Normandy shown), not because they are a organization not elected.
And even if they are evil/bad/enemies, it makes no sense for them to join the Reapers (when TIM knows that they want to process most of humans to create a human Reaper), withouth the indoctrination explanation, which is a bad solution in my opinion. 

Not my point.

An organization that is ruled by specific people can be immoral. A democratic nation or a federation of nation can not.

As for not making sense? We'll see. You are still judging that based on a short banter line, half-way through the game. Which most likely was placed there intentionally, since squad banter is nowhere to be seen anywhere else.

[Dave of Canada]

Phaedon wrote...

So, instead of going with the formula that worked in ME, where you have an enemy that is "human" and you can hate, along with the much bigger antagonist who is unreachable, emotionally, you want to go with the one in ME2? Why?

Because the entire galaxy is at war against the Reapers, civilizations are supposed to be falling apart and being indocrinated. We're at the grand finale where this unstoppable force shows up and we're supposed to stop it, no matter how impossible it seems, instead of focusing on having this one antagonist and the other one in the backround.

It worked for ME1 because it was an introduction.
I would've liked to have seen it in ME2, though we didn't.
Now we're in ME3, I want the big Reaper invasion they've been hyping up for the past two games to be the big deal.

[The Elder King]

Phaedon wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I am not saying that Cerberus isn't evil or immoral. I am saying that being a "mere organization" doesn't mean that they are evil or immoral. They are evil/immoral for their experiments, projects and mission (though I don't think all of their missions, just as not every Cerberus operative is evil, like the Lazarus Cell on the Normandy shown), not because they are a organization not elected.
And even if they are evil/bad/enemies, it makes no sense for them to join the Reapers (when TIM knows that they want to process most of humans to create a human Reaper), withouth the indoctrination explanation, which is a bad solution in my opinion. 

Not my point.

An organization that is ruled by specific people can be immoral. A democratic nation or a federation of nation can not.

As for not making sense? We'll see. You are still judging that based on a short banter line, half-way through the game. Which most likely was placed there intentionally, since squad banter is nowhere to be seen anywhere else.

Well, I agree about the organization. But the democratic nation? Sorry, I can't agree with you. Not while living in my nation. And is one of the G8 nations (though I don't know for how much).
About the second part, what short banter line are you taling about? From what I know, TIM always said, both to Miranda prior Shepard's death, and then to Shepard, that he wants to stop the Reapers, and the comics confirm that too.
I'm not saying that Bioware doesn't find a good explanation for TIM to join the Reapers, even if he isn't indoctrinated. I'm saying that so far I don't see a reason why TIM joined the Reapers. I really hope that the explanation will be good and reasonable.

[Sebbe1337o]

Well, since Jack Harper (TIM) has some reaper technology in him, maybe he is controlled by the reapers and has convinced some of his agents/soldiers that they must hunt Shepard down.


For those who hasn't read the third ME-book, spoiler alert
TIM probably is an agent for the reapers.


Why he resurrected Shepard in ME2 can then be explained in many ways:

Maybe TIM could control the Reapers' grasp for a while and he knew that Shepard was the only one who could stop them.
Maybe the reapers wanted Shepard back, because they like the challenge?


But also, as said here before, we don't know the whole story, we just know that TIM is hunting Shepard. So we won't know until we REALLY play the game.

[GodWood]

Sebbe1337o wrote...
But also, as said here before, we don't know the whole story, we just know that TIM is hunting Shepard. So we won't know until we REALLY play the game.

Incorrect.

We know Cerberus is hunting Shepard.
TIM's role is still unknown.

[The Elder King]

Phaedon wrote...




So, instead of going with the formula that worked in ME, where you have an enemy that is "human" and you can hate, along with the much bigger antagonist who is unreachable, emotionally, you want to go with the one in ME2? Why?

Though I like this about ME (Saren is a better enemy that the Collectors), I don't like the idea of TIM being Saren 2.0. I'd prefer if TIM is something more like Loghain (not in the sense of having TIM rallying allies like Loghain tried with mages and dwarves, but more like an antagonist which is the main enemy's enemy) than Saren.

[The Elder King]

GodWood wrote...

Sebbe1337o wrote...
But also, as said here before, we don't know the whole story, we just know that TIM is hunting Shepard. So we won't know until we REALLY play the game.

Incorrect.

We know Cerberus is hunting Shepard.
TIM's role is still unknown.

Do you think that he's not Cerberus leader anymore?

[Phaedon]

hhh89 wrote...
Well, I agree about the organization. But the democratic nation? Sorry, I can't agree with you. Not while living in my nation. And is one of the G8 nations (though I don't know for how much).

I don't see how. Either all of the people must be immoral, or the government doesn't change at all throughout the years.

About the second part, what short banter line are you taling about? From what I know, TIM always said, both to Miranda prior Shepard's death, and then to Shepard, that he wants to stop the Reapers, and the comics confirm that too.
I'm not saying that Bioware doesn't find a good explanation for TIM to join the Reapers, even if he isn't indoctrinated. I'm saying that so far I don't see a reason why TIM joined the Reapers. I really hope that the explanation will be good and reasonable.

I was talking about TIM and Cerberus being indoctrinated.

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...

Sebbe1337o wrote...
But also, as said here before, we don't know the whole story, we just know that TIM is hunting Shepard. So we won't know until we REALLY play the game.

Incorrect.

We know Cerberus is hunting Shepard.
TIM's role is still unknown.

Actually, no.

Casey has said a couple of times that TIM is a major antagonist. Though he may be trolling with us.

[HTTP 404]

Phaedon wrote...

Here is a question for you;

why NOT Cerberus?

If TIM isn't a great antagonist, then who is?

I agree

I have a hard time believing that Bioware decided on a whim to make Cerberus the enemy in Me3.  This was the whole idea since Me1 and nothing has changed in Me2 for it not to happen in Me3.  Cerberus being the enemy is not a retcon, not inconsistency in lore, and not against logic.  This has been a delibieate plan since the start by bioware. 

[HTTP 404]

Sebbe1337o wrote...

.


Why he resurrected Shepard in ME2 can then be explained in many ways:

Maybe TIM could control the Reapers' grasp for a while and he knew that Shepard was the only one who could stop them.
Maybe the reapers wanted Shepard back, because they like the challenge?

how can you be so sure that TIM wanted to even stop the Reapers in Me2?  All we know for certain is that he wanted to stop the Collectors....to create a job opening so to speak.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 13 juillet 2011 - 11:44 .

[Daryst]

To lazy to read the whole thread, but is it not possible that TIM is besides the possiblilty of being indoctrinated, also on the hunt because he knows too much about Cerberus? He has a wealth of information at his disposal via Miranda, Jacob and EDI. If I were him and such a person was loose, I would hunt him to the end of the universe to silent him.

[Phaedon]

Daryst wrote...

To lazy to read the whole thread, but is it not possible that TIM is besides the possiblilty of being indoctrinated, also on the hunt because he knows too much about Cerberus? He has a wealth of information at his disposal via Miranda, Jacob and EDI. If I were him and such a person was loose, I would hunt him to the end of the universe to silent him.

Casey Hudson claims that he is a major antagonist.