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So, where is the roleplaying?


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#226
sympathy4saren

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PoliteAssasin wrote...

crackseed wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm going with Chris here. You are pretty stupid if you're judging a whole game based on a three-minute video.


Or by the 10 minute video linked here
http://social.biowar...3/index/7552001

There is a lot more than just 3 minutes of gameplay out there. And what do all the trailers and demos have in common? Action.

A few posts above someone said ME is both, action and rpg. We have seen enough action, where is the other part, the rpg?


I'll definitely nod with this a bit - where all the worrying and naysaying will get solid traction is when there's more time to show off and all we keep getting is action/talk sequences. If Bioware DOES want to sell this to everyone, especially after said promises, some of these later ME3 segments at E3 NEED to show off the promised additions.

I cannot disagree with that :) I'm simply saying people need to be patient and stop jumping the shark so much and wailing that Bioware has sold out.


The RPG fans have been waiting for Bioware to come through ever since ME2's streamlining. The Shooter fans seem to be content with the way things are. Wouldn't you agree that it would be more reasonable to appeal to the RPG fans at the beginning of the conference than the shooter fans who loved ME2? Bioware has shown that the shooter fanbase is their priority, as they are much larger and provide more sales for them. We on the other hand are treated like second class citizens.

-Polite


Good thing Bethesda still has us as number one.
BioWare pushed ME3 back partly because they wanted NOTHING to do with Skyrim, as it is being released 11/11/11

#227
Ixalmaris

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Chris Priestly wrote...

Have people seen the newer Interview with Casey on Gametrialers? While still likely not enough RPG for you, it is pretty cool.

Keep it on continual play to see part 2. :)



:devil:



"Harder hitting weapons"
"Blend of Action and Cinematics"
"Holographic blade"

In the whole 5 minute stream he says only one sentence about the RPG elements that "You can choose the version of the power that you want"
But you already had that in ME1 and 2 for the high level power. Is that your "enhanced RPG elements"?

Modifié par Ixalmaris, 06 juin 2011 - 11:05 .


#228
Jaron Oberyn

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iNixiRir wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Please point out where I specified that the E3 reveals have caused me to lose hope in Bioware. You apparently haven't seen my other discussions over the past year.

-Polite


Pretty easy to point that out - you've said that you got no more hope in Bioware games. You've posted this after todays reveals, which implies that you've lost your remaining hope after the E3 reveals.



So I guess that since I posted it after the E3 conference it must exclude the other instances, Such as DA or ME 2, where Bioware has screwed up? I still dont see the logic which caused you to arrive at this conclusion. I'm not judging them based on a few videos. I'm judging them based on their terrible performance for the past 1-2 years.

-Polite

#229
BeefoTheBold

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Schneidend wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

1. OMG the Collectors are (spoiler)
2. Build a kick butt team
3. Suicide mission


1. OMG the reapers are coming
2. Find beacons
3. Kill Saren

See what I did thar?


Yes, you unsuccessfully tried to do the same sort of thing that I did.

I say unsuccessfully because everything we know about the ME universe we learned in ME1.

1. Where's the Mass Relays come from? What was their purpose? Who created them?
2. What happened to the Protheans?
3. What's the Conduit?
4. What is Indoctrination?
5. What's the Krogan War?
6. Where's the Citadel Council come from?
7. How did humanity find their way onto the galactic stage?
8. Why'd Saren turn bad?
9. Who are the Quarians, Turians, Batarians, Rachni, etc.
10. What caused the Rachni War?
11. What's the purpose of the Presidium?
12. What is the purpose of the Keepers?
13. The Reapers even exist.
14. The Galactic Clensing cycle.

etc. ALL of these things and more we learned in the FIRST game. We learn nothing new except who the Collectors are in the second game. The plot doesn't advance at all. Everything that we love about the Mass Effect storyline with the exception of the Collectors came about as a result of game #1.

Therefore, it's very accurate to say that the story of game #2 was a little weak. It didn't advance the plot significantly. We didn't find out much about the origins of the Reapers or why they hate organics so much. We didn't find out much about how to fight them.

Basically the entire game was spent assembling a team for that suicide mission.

Not saying that the game didn't have some big time strong points. The graphical improvement for example, and a couple of the destinations were cool. The game improved BIG TIME on the side missions.

But the story was weak.

#230
Clonedzero

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i really dont understand. people are screaming about them not showing indepth dialogue in a 2 minute trailer at a press conference? really?

do you people not understand what this was?

#231
KenKenpachi

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Walker White wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

You've got a couple of big assumptions tucked in there. Not every long-term Bio fan likes CRPG conventions. For instance, I'm a big fan of RPGs, but I only tolerate CRPGs, which generally descend from bad RPG systems and implement the bad parts of those bad systems. So I guess you could say that I liked BG despite it being based on D&D, not because of it.

Maybe the Bio core fanbas was always me, and never you


QFT



Agreed.

#232
Il Divo

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Chris Priestly wrote...

When I say RPG fanbase, its more general than individual. While not all of Bio's RPg fans dislike ME2, or their current course, the majority of them do. There's no arguing that. I do think that Me2 did well shooter wise, but it didn't have to be at the expense of the RPG elements. I agree that ME1's inventory was terrible, but stripping it out completely wasn't the answer to that. But maybe its like someone said on here a while ago, the fanbases Bioware's trying to put together are like oil and water, we just don't mix. Bioware had to choose, and they chose the consumer base that would yield the most profits.

-Polite

Edit: Removed big nest o quotes. :devil:


Actually, there is arguing that. Because, odds are, you don't have any statistical data that can effectively back up that huge claim you're attempting to make, nor would you even be able to provide an appropriate sample size. 

Modifié par Il Divo, 06 juin 2011 - 11:03 .


#233
Ixalmaris

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Clonedzero wrote...

i really dont understand. people are screaming about them not showing indepth dialogue in a 2 minute trailer at a press conference? really?

do you people not understand what this was?


Or 10 minutes of gameplay...
Try to keep up with the tread next time.

#234
Crackseed

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TopcatPlayer wrote...

I think the shooter lovers are mistaking RPing for dialogue options, there's a lot more too it than that and choosing what colour your armour is. At least in ME1 you could choose whether you were going to just action shooter the game all the way through or whether you were going to dig in and make a complete character that hacked, and looted, and added stats to skills instead of powers while tanking out your support characters. The hallmark of Bioware games are meant to be choice, the fact that ME2 took away a lot of that choice understandably worries a lot of the fans and so the smart thing would have been to address the issue first.


Sorry Topcat, you are so wrong it's rather funny >.>

Let's look at the major defining options of ME1, ME2 and the ME universe in general...

When the game was advertised and first released, it was an action RPG-Shooter hybrid. The main points of the game was it would be a trilogy, with choices mattering and carrying on. It would have a new type of convo system giving the player full control of many situations. It would have some RPG elements like skill trees mated with shooter gameplay.

ME1 gave us beyond the above:
1) An inventory - this thing was a trainwreck. It was so hard to manage and got so full with all the repeat similar guns we picked up.
2) A pretty beefy but also very generic skill tree that backed the shooter system - ok, my rifle now does 2% more damage and is now 2% more accurate even though when I"m aiming my crosshairs are directly on the target I still somehow miss alot.
3) A huge variety of guns, armor and mods - most of the guns were throwaway and pointless. Armors were a bit better, but still ended up feeling same samey alot. Mods were generally how you really set apart your weaponry and armor and was, IMO, the most enjoyable RPG element meshed into ME's design.
4) Planet exploration/sidequests - hotly argued point because of how dumb the Mako was and how rinse and repeat the missions tended to be.

ME2 gave us:
1) No inventory - when compared to the silliness that was ME1 inventory? It was an improvement. Was it the best one? No. We could have used a more smartly designed one that let us continue to make use of mods and armor.
2) Lack of squad customization - this is one of the biggest flaws of ME2 and I can't defend this at all, so won't try.
3) Stronger weaponry and skill tree design - yes, there was less skills and weapons overall, but each weapon or choice in general ended up being more meaningful then the silly amount of tick points or I to XIII whatever ME1 introduced.
4) Planet scanning and specific N7 missions - See point 4 above except that in general, the N7 missions were much better though I think most people feel planet exploration + N7 missions and something less arduous then scanning would have been the best compromise.

So beyond these major points, how is ME2 a shooter only w/o any RPG elements? You could play ME1 w/o doing any shooting an be only a hacker? Really? Are you sure you're not talking about Deus Ex? Because short of a couple of heavy paragon/renegade moments, you had to kill and shoot things alot in both games while making decisions both in convos AND in your skills/weapon choices, etc - which, makes BOTH games an RPG-Shooter.

#235
Mr.BlazenGlazen

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ink07 wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Its called sarcasm.



Don't say. I didn't notice.

Except your sarcasm is directed at people complaining about the game being a shooter, like they are clamoring for it to be more like FF which isn't even the case.

But 2/10 for effort. Keep trying, and I'm looking forward to your Tali fanfic soon.

Once upon a time a troll asked another troll to make a Tali fanfic.

Shepard and Tali defeated the reapers and then they had sex.

The end.

#236
jakal66

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Occulo wrote...

jakal66 wrote...


crackseed wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...


The RPG fans have been waiting for Bioware to come through ever since ME2's streamlining. The Shooter fans seem to be content with the way things are. Wouldn't you agree that it would be more reasonable to appeal to the RPG fans at the beginning of the conference than the shooter fans who loved ME2? Bioware has shown that the shooter fanbase is their priority, as they are much larger and provide more sales for them. We on the other hand are treated like second class citizens.

-Polite


Polite - be careful. You're trying to speak for RPG fans. Who gave you that right? I am a die hard RPG fan. I have played Bioware games since BG1 and Icewind Dale. I loved ME2. I loved ME1. I do not feel that Bioware erred too heavily with ME2, though I WOULD agree that they streamlined a BIT too much, but they made a bold call based on our feedback on ME1 and if you asked me - which system would I prefer? I would go with ME2 everytime, even if I feel it should have had a bit more RPG elements in it. But when I looked at the laughable trainwreck that was ME1's inventory and lackluster weaponry system, I'm glad they experimented how they did.

So no, you do not speak for me as an RPG fan - and I enjoyed ME2 and welcome ME3 bringing back more elements, but I also realize that Bioware is willing to make tough choices in the interests of making the game...better.

Are you really going to tell me that ME1's "RPG elements" like the inventory and completely deceptive weaponry system [not talking about mods - but the actual advancement of weapons] is better then ME2's non-inventory and more defined weaponry?

Don't think so :) So please, do not speak for me as an RPG fan - I want Bioware to improve and fix the mistakes they make, but I also want them to continue to do what they do best - make insanely bad-ass stories combined with enjoyable gameplay/RPG trappings.


why does he need your permission to state that serveral people and he have this opinion.
Saying RPG fans is generalization I know but I assume that most RPG fans, true RPG fans were disappointed with ME2 and to some level, unless they changed a lot,will be  with ME3. Being disappointed doesn't mean the game sucked.It means it didn't fullfill their expectations.


Personally, it's starting to sound like that time there was that guy who complained that Dragon Age II was neglecting their core demographic, the straight male, and how he was putting his opinions as something representative of most straight male gamers.


well the truth is that no one can really speak for the other I just though the guy's post was a bit agressive, he could've just put " I consider myself an RPG fan and I enjoyed ME2...so I don't share your opinion" and yet he went for the imperative mood in his post...

The reality is that we all love this game to some extent or we wouldn't be here in the first place, it is in my opinion that if they stray too far with the shooter thing the game will become just that..another generic well made shooter, come on let's face it what made the ME universe so special...the big guns???, think of the ending in ME1 and ME2 one could say in terms of gamplay that ME1s finale was worse than ME2's but I felt more emotional impact in 1 than 2, so action and shooting stuff won't make up for good story interaction.I strongly belive that if they made the RPG elements even blander than ME2 it was a huge mistake, now if they have somehow expanded it then I believe it will be a major win.Why haven't we seen this yet? I think we know why...what's Bio's priority...it's been established...

We need to see some footage of these so called enhance RPG elements we've heard so much about...period.That will end this debate and start another one.

Modifié par jakal66, 06 juin 2011 - 11:05 .


#237
sympathy4saren

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Schneidend wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

1. OMG the Collectors are (spoiler)
2. Build a kick butt team
3. Suicide mission


1. OMG the reapers are coming
2. Find beacons
3. Kill Saren

See what I did thar?


Yeah, you failed. You were appointed by the counsel to find out what Saren was up to, and you unravelled a mystery. Appointed to be a Spectre, you traced Saren's footprints, learning more about the visions in your head until you discovered the sinister plot and reality of life's existence in the galaxy...that we were all just crops.

#238
TopcatPlayer

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Chris Priestly wrote...

Have people seen the newer Interview with Casey on Gametrialers? While still likely not enough RPG for you, it is pretty cool.

Keep it on continual play to see part 2. :)



:devil:



oh.... no. The guy descibes RPing as basically same powers just more variety. No word on actual RPing elements like hacking and looting. I literally face palmed. I was hoping they'd have something to rival the stat system in ME1, i want more variety than even that had to offer (which was a lot).

#239
Ricinator

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i am so sick of these same 2 good/bad answers to almost all things in game except the big choices.... WHAT THE **** HAPPENED! i don't give a **** if i get banned because i want more than 2 choices. Like in that one game, mass effect. yes combat was a little poor but RP was SUPER IMPORTANT. Bioware step your game up and stop failing.

#240
Torhagen

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Chris Priestly wrote...

Have people seen the newer Interview with Casey on Gametrialers? While still likely not enough RPG for you, it is pretty cool.

Keep it on continual play to see part 2. :)



:devil:



You are totally right(or there was RPG in that trailer ?)
the trailer itself is pretty good although

#241
Jaron Oberyn

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Schneidend wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

1. OMG the Collectors are (spoiler)
2. Build a kick butt team
3. Suicide mission


1. OMG the reapers are coming
2. Find beacons
3. Kill Saren

See what I did thar?


Yeah. I do. You left out the middle. There was much more, and I'm going to use the Dr.'s words here, emotional engagement in ME1 than ME2. Virmire? Feros? Noveria? ME2 had the collectors base, the Derelict Reaper, and that was it main plot wise. Everything else was a compilation of side quests. ME1 had a much better story than ME2. ME2 was find 3 people, horizon. Find another 3, Collectors. Pretty much, it's help people with their personal issues, and then "Oh, I forgot we have collectors to deal with. Come on guys, lets to board their ship!"

-Polite

#242
sympathy4saren

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Clonedzero wrote...

i really dont understand. people are screaming about them not showing indepth dialogue in a 2 minute trailer at a press conference? really?

do you people not understand what this was?


No, we see pretty clearly this is a shooter.

#243
Occulo

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TopcatPlayer wrote...

No word on actual RPing elements like hacking and looting.


...I didn't know the Sly Cooper series were actually RPGs.

I was always under the impression that roleplay was about character building, and not just being a klepto' and hoarding.

#244
BeefoTheBold

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Okay: regarding the Gametrailers video that Chris linked.

It starts talking about the RPG elements about five minutes in and says that it beefs up the RPG elements and uses the example that you can choose which version of powers you want.

Am I wrong or wasn't this already there in ME2? Not trying to be overly critical, but how is this beefing up the RPG elements?

The entire video was about the combat and the like. Don't get me wrong. The combat looks amazing.

But I'm still not seeing any sort of improved RPG elements from ME2.

Basically, this trailer is very similar to the approach taken at the E3 reveal today. 98% combat and a very brief mention that they've beefed up the RPG elements...but no demonstration or example of how they've done so.

#245
Ixalmaris

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Torhagen wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Have people seen the newer Interview with Casey on Gametrialers? While still likely not enough RPG for you, it is pretty cool.

Keep it on continual play to see part 2. :)



:devil:



You are totally right(or there was RPG in that trailer ?)
the trailer itself is pretty good although




For comparisation, look what the Witcher 2 showed at last years E3 in 15 minutes... (Comments are in German, but you will understand the gameplay)
http://www.gamestar....d=1589&pk=14171

Modifié par Ixalmaris, 06 juin 2011 - 11:11 .


#246
ink07

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Ixalmaris wrote...

"Harder hitting weapons"
"Blend of Action and Cinematics"
"Holographic blade"

In the whole 5 minute stream he says only one sentence about the RPG elements that "You can choose the version of the power that you want"
But you already had that in ME1 and 2 for the high level power. Is that your "enhanced RPG elements"?



Wait, are you telling me "character can now roll" "climbable mechs" "stationary turrets you can use" "win button omnitool knife" and "cinematic action" or "improved guns" are not RPG mechanics?

Guess you can't really show what you don't have. But hey, if Chris tells me this game is still an RPG I believe him, I mean, it's not like all the footage shows otherwise or he'd lie about it, right?

=/

Modifié par ink07, 06 juin 2011 - 11:12 .


#247
Crackseed

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At the same time, I don't think ME2 can get a story that surpasses 1 or 3 because, in my experiences, the middle of the road always has to be the "cautious" portion of the story because it can't get TOO crazy nor will it have that amazing "OMG" first time experience as you uncover the universe anew like the first game creates. I still enjoyed ME2's story immensely, but I believe ME1 was more epic because it kicked things off and set the stage and ME2 has to keep things flowing w/o dropping the "OH SNAP" bomb on us that the final part brings.

@ Occulo - Haha, a good point. I mean if we consider weapon mods and "weapon management" an RPG point, then half the FPS's out there are semi-RPGs too! I mean in Crysis I can choose where I go and pick my weapon mods and how I modify my armor...

It's such a dangerous dangerous ground to tread trying to lump games into categories based on some loose definitions.

Modifié par crackseed, 06 juin 2011 - 11:12 .


#248
Ricinator

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sympathy4saren wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i really dont understand. people are screaming about them not showing indepth dialogue in a 2 minute trailer at a press conference? really?

do you people not understand what this was?


No, we see pretty clearly this is a shooter.

Image IPBImage IPB

yes they have indeed put RP and STORY to a back seat... considering they are making the final game a starting point for new people?? ****** off Bioware

#249
Banzboy

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I hope the release a demo highlighting the rpg elements.

#250
Nohvarr

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Ricinator wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i really dont understand. people are screaming about them not showing indepth dialogue in a 2 minute trailer at a press conference? really?

do you people not understand what this was?


No, we see pretty clearly this is a shooter.

Image IPBImage IPB

yes they have indeed put RP and STORY to a back seat... considering they are making the final game a starting point for new people?? ****** off Bioware


Prove it, I want you to prove how the story has been put in the backseat.