556 réponses à ce sujet

[x-Legion-x]

I think Bioware did a great job on the gameplay, but there version of RPG elements died with ME1..
that game for me is the prime of RPG elements, this game has turned into a Mass effect crossed with gears of war

[candidate88766]

x-Legion-x wrote...

RPG elements -

EXP per kill

Alot Of Loot

Big skill trees

High Level Caps

I see none of these in the demo

why does everyone want to make shooter games, I still think
ME1 will always have the best RPG elements

Why are any of these essential for a game to be good? ME3 will have larger skill trees and I've heard that the level cap is being raised to 60 (I'm not certain on that last one though). But why do the other things need to be in the game? 

Loot makes little sense - how can Shepard carry hundreds of guns around all the time?
EXP per kill - why is that essential for ME3 to be good?

Mas Effect games are about the story, universe and characters. If you're playing these games to collect guns and experience then I'd say you're missing the point.

[Whatever42]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

That's why I was saying that from a story perspective, ME2's was weaker than ME1. It benefited from ME1 setting the stage but didn't really tell any story of it's own or advance ME1's at all.

And that's fine from a certain point of view. You're quite right that it was an entertaining game in it's own right, but it left a pretty heavy burden on ME3 to wrap a lot of things up as the final game in the series.

Not saying it can't get there, but it needs to be a major issue of focus for ME3 (I would argue even moreso than the combat) because this is it. This is the final game in the trilogy so anything storyline related that DOESN'T get wrapped will pretty much be forever dropped.

I'd have personally preferred a bit more plot advancement in ME2 just for pacing purposes just so they didn't leave quite so big of a burden on ME3 to tie everything up in a nice little bow. I want a good sense of closure on all the open items, but not just a rushed "And everyone lived happily ever after" style conclusion if you catch my drift.

The ME2 story certainly had a couple problems with pacing and weak storytelling around the main plot but it did advance the main plot. I think it will become far more evident in ME3. 

Think of the Star Wars trilogy. You could argue that ESB didn't advance the plot either, despite much better characters and writing. However, after watching RotJ, you can see exactly how it advanced the plot with the relationship between Luke and Vader. The TTT has the same thing happening in the LotR trilogy.

There could be a lot in ME2 that advances the plot. We did learn more about Reapers in ME2, about how they're made, about how the indoctrination field works even in dead Reapers. We just don't know how it really fits in yet.

My only problem with ME2 was that the main story runs out of steam for me before the game really ends. The storytelling around the characters was awesome, though. That's why I'm hoping for the personal touch of ME2 but the epic sweep and just general coolness of ME1.  I mean, ME1 had mystery and visions and rogue spectres - the main story was just so much more riveting.

But all this is off-topic. The problem with the story being the one big thing that makes or breaks it for me is that we won't really know until we play it all the way through - so no preview will answer the question for me. As for RPG elements, what Casey said in this interview is enough for me - well, I also want more exploration and we need to see to what degree they deliver but since its not a big deal for me, I'm cool with whatever they add to the experience.



"The second big area that we're focusing on is a deeper RPG experience. So really getting into a deep experience with big choices about how you want to play. You can throw your weapon down on a bench and upgrade it, plugging in different parts. You're buying and selling a lot more stuff. You're customizing your armor a lot more."

On the other hand, people like Polite and some others are really hoping for some sort of dramatic change. Since Bioware clearly stated that they are not overhauling the mechanics, I can't see how they will be happy. 

[VonStrangle]

Nothing ever satisfies you people. Baaaaaaaaawwww.

[Nohvarr]

Ricinator wrote...

Occulo wrote...

Ricinator wrote...

considering they are making the final game a starting point for new people?? ****** off Bioware

What, so not wanting people who picked up your game and are new to the series get a bit acquainted with everything is a bad thing? I understand if the game starts out with a long wall of scrolling text, but so far there's no sign of that.

think about it for 10 sec... i'm not saying they shouldn't have a little comic like they did in me2 for ps3 but they want to do even more?? The new people only have to go back and play the other 2 to catch up. why make a game for such fickle people that only want to see the final game? Would you only watch the Return of the Jedi, or last Lord of the Rings? didn't think so

Actually, the very first Star Wars movie I ever saw wa Return of the Jedi. I then went back and caught up with the series. The very first 'Dresden Files' book I read was Deadbeat, (Book six or seven I think) and then went back and read the rest. The very first Uncharted game I played was uncharted 2 and I came into the Mega Man series on Mega Man 2. So yeah it pays to make games accessible to new comers.

[candidate88766]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

You know, the GameInformer, PC Gamer, PS3 magazine, OXM. While light on details, all they talked about were minor story points and how Biowares focus was to improve te RPG elemtents and the combat elements.

Ah. Okay. My concern is that I'd like to see some details on this. I've seen plenty of details on how they've improved the combat elements, but almost nothing at all on what they mean by improving the RPG elements.

Oh well. Plenty of time between now and next March. I'll keep watching.

Exactly - theres plenty of time. People (not you, but others in this thread) have jumped to conclusions after a matter of hours, when theres still almost a year for them to show off the features of the game.

[Clonedzero]

x-Legion-x wrote...

RPG elements -

EXP per kill

Alot Of Loot

Big skill trees

High Level Caps

I see none of these in the demo

why does everyone want to make shooter games, I still think
ME1 will always have the best RPG elements

ME1 was ALWAYS supposed to be a action/shooter/rpg hybrid. always.

also, thats the worst traits of RPGs to emphisize. im glad you'r enot designing the game.

[ink07]

candidate88766 wrote...

Loot makes little sense - how can Shepard carry hundreds of guns around all the time?
EXP per kill - why is that essential for ME3 to be good?

Sigh, you DO understand gameplay logic vs. real life logic, right? If we were going to begin the discussion of:

"X" makes little sense - how can Shepard _________________? we'd complain about a lot more stuff than just loot carrying.

Don't be dense and dumb when trying to sound smart, Loot and EXP per Kill are genre staples expected from RPG-like games, so of course they are expected for this kind of game to feel enjoyable. I'm sure you would level such criticism at other games, right?

Modifié par ink07, 07 juin 2011 - 12:14 .

[sympathy4saren]

I wonder how the shooter crowd would react if combat was gutted down

[Clonedzero]

also, loot makes no sense.

why would shepard, the first human spectre. galactic hero mulitple times over be using inferior weapons and gear? wouldnt get give him the best guns available? why would a gun he finds on a DEAD PERSON be better than his spectre/alliance N7 issued weapons?

stupid and immersion breaking imo.

[Oblivious]

Mesina2 wrote...

Not possible to show without spoilers.

what he said

[Apollo Starflare]

After watching the Gamestrailers extended stuff I got the distinct impression they are currently tied by what they are expected to show. Despite what some on this board may want to believe people don't -want- to have a demonstration of how the levelling system works for characters in a game not due out until next year. They want big exciting set pieces and improvements to the key areas (and the key area of ME has long since been the gunplay and combat as well as the story and characters).

E3 is all about showing the improved combat and giving some major reveals of story to those not picking through the currently released info with a fine comb. With the addition of things like character's returning and other tid bits for the fans.

I love E3, but it was never going to be anything other than that. RPG info will come in time, Casey again mentioned that powers have been improved and we all know the improvements to the weapons.

[Occulo]

sympathy4saren wrote...

I wonder how the shooter crowd would react if combat was gutted down

Gutted? The game has nine months of development to go, and just over ten minutes of Kinect advertising (in case you didn't notice the whole point of Microsoft's conference was to sell the Kinect) is enough to go on to declare that any of Mass Effect's elements have been gutted?

Oblivious wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Not possible to show without spoilers.

what he said

I have to disagree there. I don't think showing a skill tree would spoil anything. But I have to admit that skill trees are not going to sell the Kinect.

Modifié par Occulo, 07 juin 2011 - 12:20 .

[Nohvarr]

sympathy4saren wrote...

I wonder how the shooter crowd would react if combat was gutted down

1. We calmly and respectfully pointed out the problems with ME 1 combat and got the improvements shown in 2 and now 3.

2. Give me actual evidence that the RPG is being gutted from ME 2 to ME 3.

[LGTX]

Wow, I suddenly feel happy that I haven't lost trust in Bioware and don't feel obliged to claw at every tid-bit of released info and dissect it for personal wants. I mean, seeing the amount of effort you guys put into voicing your (imho) irrational opinions, I genuinely feel lucky not being in that position. 

Modifié par LGTX, 07 juin 2011 - 12:21 .

[candidate88766]

ink07 wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

Loot makes little sense - how can Shepard carry hundreds of guns around all the time?
EXP per kill - why is that essential for ME3 to be good?

Sigh, you DO understand gameplay logic vs. real life logic, right? If we were going to begin the discussion of:

"X" makes little sense - how can Shepard _________________? we'd complain about a lot more stuff than just loot carrying.

Don't be dense and dumb when trying to sound smart, Loot and EXP per Kill are genre staples expected from RPG-like games, so of course they are expected for this kind of game to feel enjoyable. I'm sure you would level such criticism at other games, right?

Given how vocal this forum is about minor plot points I'd say its a fair enough point. Besides, I think ME2's inventory system is much better in that you have to interact with parts of the Normandy, which feels more immersive.

And while those features may be genre staples that doesn't make them necessary for ME3 to be a good game. It has decisions with consquence, larger skill trees and deeper customisation, or so we've been told. Why does it also need all the 'old-school' RPG features too? ME games are all about story, universe and characters - and things like loot add nothing to that. People expect them to be in the gme simply because they are staples of the RPG genre and Mass Effect is part RPG. Its like saying that because ME is part shooter, and a staple of shooters is online multiplayer, ME should have that. Mass Effect is not, and has never been, an old school RPG and so I'd argue it doesn't need eveyr genre staple to be a good game. I'd like it to have some RPG features, more than ME2 did, but I play these games for the story and not for the ability to collect guns.

[candidate88766]

Clonedzero wrote...

also, loot makes no sense.

why would shepard, the first human spectre. galactic hero mulitple times over be using inferior weapons and gear? wouldnt get give him the best guns available? why would a gun he finds on a DEAD PERSON be better than his spectre/alliance N7 issued weapons?

stupid and immersion breaking imo.

I agree. Just because loot is a staple of RPGs doesn't mean it is necessary for Mass Effect. Looting made very little sense.

[DragonRageGT]

Hey, I watched the vids! Lots of roll&playing! Kewl! Roxor! Allweeesome Roll&Playing Game!!!

candidate88766 wrote...

I agree. Just because loot is a staple of RPGs doesn't mean it is necessary for Mass Effect. Looting made very little sense.

Except that reaching level 60 and finding a cool Colossus X set for the whole team plus cool Spectre gear with mods depending on what we wanted for thatb weapon is a lot more epic!

Modifié par RageGT, 07 juin 2011 - 12:31 .

[KiraTsukasa]

You guys don't understand the concept of Non-Disclosure Agreements, do you? If they don't mention something, then it's more likely they CAN'T mention it, rather than it not existing.

[BeefoTheBold]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

BeefoTheBold wrote...

That's why I was saying that from a story perspective, ME2's was weaker than ME1. It benefited from ME1 setting the stage but didn't really tell any story of it's own or advance ME1's at all.

And that's fine from a certain point of view. You're quite right that it was an entertaining game in it's own right, but it left a pretty heavy burden on ME3 to wrap a lot of things up as the final game in the series.

Not saying it can't get there, but it needs to be a major issue of focus for ME3 (I would argue even moreso than the combat) because this is it. This is the final game in the trilogy so anything storyline related that DOESN'T get wrapped will pretty much be forever dropped.

I'd have personally preferred a bit more plot advancement in ME2 just for pacing purposes just so they didn't leave quite so big of a burden on ME3 to tie everything up in a nice little bow. I want a good sense of closure on all the open items, but not just a rushed "And everyone lived happily ever after" style conclusion if you catch my drift.

The ME2 story certainly had a couple problems with pacing and weak storytelling around the main plot but it did advance the main plot. I think it will become far more evident in ME3. 

Think of the Star Wars trilogy. You could argue that ESB didn't advance the plot either, despite much better characters and writing. However, after watching RotJ, you can see exactly how it advanced the plot with the relationship between Luke and Vader. The TTT has the same thing happening in the LotR trilogy.

There could be a lot in ME2 that advances the plot. We did learn more about Reapers in ME2, about how they're made, about how the indoctrination field works even in dead Reapers. We just don't know how it really fits in yet.

My only problem with ME2 was that the main story runs out of steam for me before the game really ends. The storytelling around the characters was awesome, though. That's why I'm hoping for the personal touch of ME2 but the epic sweep and just general coolness of ME1.  I mean, ME1 had mystery and visions and rogue spectres - the main story was just so much more riveting.

But all this is off-topic. The problem with the story being the one big thing that makes or breaks it for me is that we won't really know until we play it all the way through - so no preview will answer the question for me. As for RPG elements, what Casey said in this interview is enough for me - well, I also want more exploration and we need to see to what degree they deliver but since its not a big deal for me, I'm cool with whatever they add to the experience.



"The second big area that we're focusing on is a deeper RPG experience. So really getting into a deep experience with big choices about how you want to play. You can throw your weapon down on a bench and upgrade it, plugging in different parts. You're buying and selling a lot more stuff. You're customizing your armor a lot more."

On the other hand, people like Polite and some others are really hoping for some sort of dramatic change. Since Bioware clearly stated that they are not overhauling the mechanics, I can't see how they will be happy.

Hoping that you're right and that the storyline advancements will become more evident as we get into ME3. Now that you have me thinking on those lines I can see a few nugget areas of potential of things that happened in ME2 that might have a big impact on ME3.

It's pretty blindingly obvious that the actual combat to this gameplay will be shooter focused. No issues with that. It is what it is.

I think one of the issues this thread is struggling with is what people mean when they say, "We want to see more RPG elements!" I'm going to go ahead and spell out some of the things that I want to see.

1. Choice impact - Number one and quite huge. I want to see my choices dramatically change the storyline depending on what I've done before and also the ability to change the outcome based on my choices in the third game.

So here's an example: Did you choose to exterminate the Rachni in ME1 or let the queen go? I would assume that the impact of this choice will finally be felt in the third game.

This is something that I thought Bioware did extremely well in DAO (which made subsequent releases in the DA universe so disappointing) in that after DAO the ending REALLY CHANGED based on what you did during the game.

2. Skill trees - This annoyed me a lot in ME2. I understand that Bioware wants to appeal to a different breed of gamer. That's freaking painfully obvious these days. But if Bioware is promising improved RPG elements, then I expect skill trees to be more robust and more useful in ME3.

Put another way, I want ME3 to have actual different character build combinations that have a meaningful impact upon combat. This also gets into the area of choice. The only level up choice that matters can't be when you select your character class at the beginning of the game.

Look at how flexible the mage class is in Dragon Age Origins. (I know, using the same game as an example.) You could make a nuker mage class, a healer mage, a buffer mage, etc.

Now, obviously expecting ME3, which is a different type of game, to have the same level of possibilities is probably unrealistic, but a great deal of expansion on skill trees over ME2 isn't unreasonable IMO.

3. Inventory management

I know not everyone liked the way the inventory management system in ME1 was built, and it certainly had it's faults, but you basically had NO inventory to choose from in ME2. I want to know specifics on how many different weapons and armors I'll have to choose from.

Bonus points if Bioware finds a way to allow you to have custom sets of armor that consist of a different breastplate, gauntlets, grieves, helmet or whatever. Not likely, but sure would be cool.

Similarly, I want to be able to see more stat impact to my equipment choices. I don't think I ever once in ME2, other than my gun choice, thought to myself, "If only I had brought this different piece of equipment! I could really use it right now."

4. Shopping! (A.K.A. - non-combat oriented gameplay)

Shops should stock more than four items. Shops should restock items periodically. There should be some randomness to what you find when you go shopping. It should be possible, for instance, to find an ultra rare piece of equipment from time to time that delights those people who take their time to try and get the best equipment possible for their beloved squadmates.

4B. Finances

How about incorporating some greater complexity to financial matters? Being able to draw upon resources from various sources like the Alliance (or the Citadel Council if they're still around). If you're planning on uniting and equipping an army, then what about the game having some economic impact and choices to make?

5. Make the combat be impacted by things other than how fast you move your trigger finger

If I pour points into, for example, Shotgun skill, then I'd like to see some sort of tangible way that sort of thing pays off. Let me look under the hood so that, if I don't like how things work one playthrough, I can try a different leveling up combination the next time.

The very aspect of leveling up is one of the Great Player Rewards in RPG titles. If you can't see the benefit of leveling up, then it removes one of those excitement points for RPG fans

Very hastily worded and thrown together on the spot.

Modifié par BeefoTheBold, 07 juin 2011 - 12:30 .

[BeefoTheBold]

6. Mediating between the races and being forced to make decisions that make one group love you and another hate you.

People are people, no matter what race they come from, and there's no pleasing everyone. As an aspect of choice, it would also sure be nice if you had to actually make choices between pleasing different factions, either within your ship or within the broader galaxy and have consequences of those choices.

[SpecterShepard]

I did not think that we lost many RPG elements from ME1 to ME2. This has already been stated but I will say it again many RPG elements can't be shown due to spoilers and dependency on the decisions made by the player. That said they showed barley any dialog and the dialog they did show only allowed for 2 different choices. I am hoping that is because they are not finished adding the dialog to parts they have shown.

With ME2 being my favorite game of all time and ME1 at least in my top 5 not sure where, I really hop to see more dialog and critical choices.

[Aimi]

BeefoTheBold wrote...

2. Skill trees - This annoyed me a lot in ME2. I understand that Bioware wants to appeal to a different breed of gamer. That's freaking painfully obvious these days. But if Bioware is promising improved RPG elements, then I expect skill trees to be more robust and more useful in ME3.

Put another way, I want ME3 to have actual different character build combinations that have a meaningful impact upon combat. This also gets into the area of choice. The only level up choice that matters can't be when you select your character class at the beginning of the game.

Look at how flexible the mage class is in Dragon Age Origins. (I know, using the same game as an example.) You could make a nuker mage class, a healer mage, a buffer mage, etc.

Now, obviously expecting ME3, which is a different type of game, to have the same level of possibilities is probably unrealistic, but a great deal of expansion on skill trees over ME2 isn't unreasonable IMO.

Query: how was this missing from ME2?  Your CQC Infiltrator, your pure damage-dealer Infiltrator, and your battlefield-control Infiltrator are radically different builds that play very differently.  A Revenant Soldier and a Widow(/Mattock) Soldier aren't carbon copies of each other, either - the difference between pushing, in-your-face aggressive action and the ability to hang back and slaughter everything methodically.  The Sentinel could mix things up at close range out in the open or, with an alternate build, focus on casting.  I mean, these are all pretty meaningful choices and they dramatically impact gameplay.

[Whatever42]

BeefoTheBold, I'm almost entirely in agreement with your wishlist. I think we'll be safe with #1 - they've talked a lot about choice and described their matrices.

I think they might be struggling a bit with #2 (just a feeling). With deeper skill trees, balancing becomes far more difficult. It might be why we haven't seen much of the skill trees yet.

With #3, I loved the locker system but the choice was pretty anemic. The DLC helped but it was still only passable. However, Bioware flat out said that there would be more customization and that you could add different parts to your guns so we'll have to see. I'm 100% confident that we'll get better than ME2 but whether that means its marginally better or far better is yet to be seen. I share a bit of your skepticism here.

#4 absolutely. Shops were almost pointless in ME2. I'm not sure the typical D&D model of looting credits and buying your own gear at the store fits in ME but perhaps they could figure out something like fits better with this scenario.

#4b again, I agree. This comes to more customization and its always an entertaining mini-game for me. However, I don't hold out a ton of hope for a very vibrant economy.

#5 I'm torn on this one. I'm not sure I like skill points for weapons. I rather liked being able to use all the weapons I carried. However, I doubt we'll see this either - it would be a pretty dramatic departure from ME2 mechanics and Bioware has said that they weren't going to do that.

See, most of us really don't seriously disagree in principle, although specific ideas may differ. I do appreciate that certain of these changes may be more critical to your enjoyment than mine (or vice versa), but that we all agree is why I'm confident Bioware will try to implement what they can.

Again, I just pray they nail the story!

[Ricinator]

from ME1 to ME2 we lost a **** ton of choices from where you were once able to explore a problem through dialogue, and often have a very unique dialogue choice if you were to dig deep enough. where in ME2 that same technique was chopped and most choices lead to the exact same conclusion. There was one exception in ME2 with the boarding passes you could give to the asari on the citadel. But other than that bioware chopped a lot of the RPG. This is where i am concerned with in ME3 and I'm pretty convinced they wont pay that extra bit of attention the ME3.

-polite