556 réponses à ce sujet

[Dangerfoot]

The only RPG elements I'm really unsatisfied/nervous about with Bioware is the biggest RPG elements, which is the ability for the player to roleplay, to create an identity for their character that isn't just A or B (P or R), and also the ability for the player to decide what happens to the universe they're playing in on some level (much, much, much more than in DA2).

The talents are fine and the weapon and armor upgrading sounds like it will be fine too. I'm just worried about the above stuff.

[sympathy4saren]

Interacting your character with a story. So...is Heavy Rain an rpg? How about The Force Unleashed? At the end you decide Starkillers' fate and the game's ending by choosing to either fight and kill Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine.

By that definition alone, The Force Unleashed is an rpg.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 07 juin 2011 - 03:44 .

[kcp12]

Solid N7 wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

x-Legion-x wrote...

RPG elements -

EXP per kill

Alot Of Loot

Big skill trees

High Level Caps

I see none of these in the demo

why does everyone want to make shooter games, I still think
ME1 will always have the best RPG elements

So, that's what you think are core RPG elements? Are you a WOW player? ME1 best RPG elements?

Kids these days...

Damn you haters, RPGs are and always will be about interacting your character with a story. Game systems are means to support the interaction with a story, not the other way. Have you guys never played pen and paper RPG? Did you play to level up characters and get lots of loot and gold, etc? Then you're doing it wrong.

And guess what? Mass Effect does the player interaction with a story in a level never seen before to 3 separate video games taking the illusion of choice to a new level becoming a standard on the genre.



If you want loot, exp, skill tress, high level caps, millions of quests, not a roleplaying game, wait a little, Diablo 3 is coming.

Peace.

^^^ THIS

[Jaron Oberyn]

And to add more to my post above Mr. Lee, the shooter fans already know that there's going to be pew pew in ME. However the RPG fans don't have the slightest idea of whether or not it will be since you guys stripped it bare in the second game. So was it wise to show off more shooting, or would it have been much better to put the "core fan's" mind at ease?

-Polite

-Polite

[JayhartRIC]

I think it takes all the weight of the situations when you know you can just say some flowery words and get the perfect scenario. I think it plays much better when you have to make a choice.

[TheKillerAngel]

To me, RPG's are about choosing character development and story progression. Those are more important than "stats" or other numerical things that you can change. While I will admit certain RPG's have a role for "numerical" RPG mechanics, Mass Effect was not really designed as one of those.

[Dangerfoot]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Interacting your character with a story. So...is Heavy Rain an rpg? How about the Force Unleashed? At the end you decide Starkillers' care by choosing to either fight and kill Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine.

By that definition alone, The Force Unleashed is an rpg.

Heavy Rain shares more in common with games like D&D than Mass Effect does. It is a story game that unfolds differently based on your choices.

And you're saying that making one decision that leads to one of two ending cutscenes is the pinnacle of role playing? Because that's certainly not what I was saying.

[kcp12]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

And to add more to my post above Mr. Lee, the shooter fans already know that there's going to be pew pew in ME. However the RPG fans don't have the slightest idea of whether or not it will be since you guys stripped it bare in the second game. So was it wise to show off more shooting, or would it have been much better to put the "core fan's" mind at ease?

-Polite

-Polite

Bioware has no obligation to put core fans at ease. They can do that anytime from now till March.  Does the general gaming audience that watches E3 really want to see a dev fiddle around some menus for 3 minutes.

Modifié par kcp12, 07 juin 2011 - 03:24 .

[sympathy4saren]

ramnozack wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

x-Legion-x wrote...

RPG elements -

EXP per kill

Alot Of Loot

Big skill trees

High Level Caps

I see none of these in the demo

why does everyone want to make shooter games, I still think
ME1 will always have the best RPG elements

So, that's what you think are core RPG elements? Are you a WOW player? ME1 best RPG elements?

Kids these days...

Damn you haters, RPGs are and always will be about interacting your character with a story. Game systems are means to support the interaction with a story, not the other way. Have you guys never played pen and paper RPG? Did you play to level up characters and get lots of loot and gold, etc? Then you're doing it wrong.

And guess what? Mass Effect does the player interaction with a story in a level never seen before to 3 separate video games taking the illusion of choice to a new level becoming a standard on the genre.



If you want loot, exp, skill tress, high level caps, millions of quests, not a roleplaying game, wait a little, Diablo 3 is coming.

Peace.

What grinding lvl 1 dog sized rats till u lvl up so u can go kill lvl 3 goblins isn't fun?!?!!!??!!! How about stealing everything you have off a corpse or someone's chest that they left randomly in a skeleton filled dungeon. But of course let us not forget killing cows for 3 hours to make yourself some leather boots you'll replace in an hour of making them =/

Anyway I like the current system they have going in ME 2 the only thing wrong with ME 2 was that the skill trees really weren't Impressive. You could max out almost every power u had in ME 2 we need more choice in ME 3 also the global CD system was kinda messed up. It pigeonholed classes like Solider and Vanguard into using 1 power most of the time. But i have high hopes that will change in ME 3.

Yeah, because holding a button down so I can dudebro shoot everything that moves, nonstop, is so much fun.

By looting, you look for stuff, get stuff, get rich. Awesome, more health. Sweet, a new powerful weapon. And you EXPLORE to find these things. It gives you the ability to define your character by choosing what you do and do not want to have.

But dudebro, Call of Duty x box!!!!

[jakal66]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Jarrett Lee wrote...

We're just winding up the marketing machine into gear - E3 being the first big coming out for the larger community. Plenty of months to go and we intend to do deeper dives into the kinds of info and content you guys (the core fans) want to hear more about.

So you've just admitted that you were using this e3 to gain the favor of the shooter crowd then? I'm guessing thats what you mean by the "larger community".

You do realize that your second statement is something that you guys have been saying for a long time now? Are we supposed to just blindly take what you say with more than a grain of salt until we purchase the game and find out it wasn't what you guys said it would be? You all keep talking about the deep, rich RPG elements you're going to be adding, but so far we've seen nothing at all. Yet magazines, and now videos, have been raving about the games improved combat. Put yourself in our shoes. What would your reaction be to that? The most we've got for "rich rpg elements" right now is that we can evolve powers into one of two variations. Hardly an improvement since this was what ME2 did.

-Polite

This!!!! It always seems they put(not only Bioware of course) the casual crowd in front of the real fans, now just understand that I do get the idea of good marketing but perhaps creatting something for the fans only, a small video showing what we want to see, you could just put it in your web or on facebook...whatever...whatabout catering the REAL fans instead or brownosing the these casual gamer who most of the time don't even finish a game...

See my point? why is it that you will not cater the fans  necesity to know more about these "rich RPG elements".

You could have done this and yet you chose not to....what's so bad about satidfying those whom you know WILL purchase the game no matter what...is that the reason...we're 100% sure to buy customers? I really hope they show something in E3 or in another format...but come on Bio, is it such a hassle?

[Sidney]

sympathy4saren wrote...
I will begin with one, only one, small example. Sound fair? This thing is in every rpg...it is a place you hold your stuff...a place to check and analyze statistics...

Think of an rpg. Think of what is in it. It starts with an "I", and ends in "nventory". Do you know of an rpg without one, other than tps claiming to be an rpg?

Ever bother to ask why the hell is this in the RPG? What does it add? There's nothing character defining about stealing vaguely valuable stuff off the recently deceased or having 9 swords, 3 suits of armor and more bottles on your person than the soda aisle at your local market. It should slap in you in the face over and over and over with how stupid it is but so many people are so fundamentalist about this genre that if it was ever in Baldur's Gate then god forbid it isn't in every game henceforth.

[JayhartRIC]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

And to add more to my post above Mr. Lee, the shooter fans already know that there's going to be pew pew in ME. However the RPG fans don't have the slightest idea of whether or not it will be since you guys stripped it bare in the second game. So was it wise to show off more shooting, or would it have been much better to put the "core fan's" mind at ease?

-Polite

-Polite

As a shooter ME2 was good, but was still wonky in places and missed the mark.  Bioware has a few minutes of gameplay to try to grab the attention of the people who aren't waiting with baited breath for every piece of info.

[sympathy4saren]

Dangerfoot wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Interacting your character with a story. So...is Heavy Rain an rpg? How about the Force Unleashed? At the end you decide Starkillers' care by choosing to either fight and kill Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine.

By that definition alone, The Force Unleashed is an rpg.

Heavy Rain shares more in common with games like D&D than Mass Effect does. It is a story game that unfolds differently based on your choices.

And you're saying that making one decision that leads to one of two ending cutscenes is the pinnacle of role playing? Because that's certainly not what I was saying.

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

[Sidney]

jakal66 wrote...

See my point? why is it that you will not cater the fans  necesity to know more about these "rich RPG elements".

Find me an RPG trailer - not a preview video, a trailer - that shows you anything other than the white hot action in the game. Do you EVER see the inventory screen, the character build screen, skill trees?

I posted DAO, ME1, TW2, how about FNV: http://www.youtube.c...?v=l-x-1fm2cq8. Lots of combat, pretty grpahics and no visible RPG elements to be seen.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

JayhartRIC wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

And to add more to my post above Mr. Lee, the shooter fans already know that there's going to be pew pew in ME. However the RPG fans don't have the slightest idea of whether or not it will be since you guys stripped it bare in the second game. So was it wise to show off more shooting, or would it have been much better to put the "core fan's" mind at ease?

-Polite

-Polite

As a shooter ME2 was good, but was still wonky in places and missed the mark.  Bioware has a few minutes of gameplay to try to grab the attention of the people who aren't waiting with baited breath for every piece of info.

If you aren't waiting with "baited breath" for info on ME3 you... well aren't that big of a Mass Effect fan.  And If you didn't like ME2 at ALL... then I doubt you will like ME3.  Becuase it builds on what they did before.

But... considering you have Shley as your avatar... I would figure you like the series?  Or did you only like the first game?

[ChristianSoldier]

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDIN ME? ME3 looks ****ing awesome!!! Bless Casey Hudson for making such an awesome game. I am so glad they stuck with the ME2 feel. SCREW ME1. It wouldnt hurt if they add MORE RPG elements though.

[Sidney]

sympathy4saren wrote...

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

Ask the other way, IWD or Diablo has NOTHING character influencing the story but a lot of stats, looting and leveling yet those things don't even deserve to be called an RPG. Those and WoW are leveling games not role playing games because there's no role to be played unless the role is XP ****.

[jakal66]

Sidney wrote...

jakal66 wrote...

See my point? why is it that you will not cater the fans  necesity to know more about these "rich RPG elements".

Find me an RPG trailer - not a preview video, a trailer - that shows you anything other than the white hot action in the game. Do you EVER see the inventory screen, the character build screen, skill trees?

I posted DAO, ME1, TW2, how about FNV: http://www.youtube.c...?v=l-x-1fm2cq8. Lots of combat, pretty grpahics and no visible RPG elements to be seen.

Ohh come on...read the rest of my post I suggested another method just to appease the fans...

[Dangerfoot]

sympathy4saren wrote...

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

Games nowadays are almost all hybrids of somekind. A collection of elements and mini games collaborated into one package. Because of this, the line is quite blurred. But I think most people will agree that the most relevent aspect of a Role Playing Game, is the Role Playing. Not the stats, or the loot, or the inventory, at least not specifically; those things are still nice in an RPG. A good RPG should be like a choose your own adventure book. The more defined and colorful the choices, the better and more rewarding it will be for Role Players to replay.

[Eshaye]

I know that there's a little kid in a vent that you can't take with you and protect, it made my cold little heart go awwwww noes!!!

That's a good sign there's strong RPG imo. We'll get more info soon enough.

edit: No looting crates and corpses isn't RPG and it doesn't belong in Mass Effect. :S Dialogue, choice of flavor, being in your character's shoes, that's RPG... ?! 

Modifié par Eshaye, 07 juin 2011 - 03:38 .

[Eldareus]

sympathy4saren wrote...


What is there really to gut anymore? The dialogue wheel? Lol. We are expecting lots of good things rpg wise...hopefully we will see some good looting demonstrations, an example of inventory and statistics screens. You know, for full customization of everything and every effect down to a percentage.

Show me evidence real rpg elements are in this game. Because after DA2, lots of people don't take BioWare by their word. If they want to fully turn Mass Effect over to the shooter fanboys after ME3, that's cool.

Looting, inventory, and  statistic screens is your vision of a good RPG? Sounds alot like make busy work to me. I really agree with RyuGuitarFreak's vision of a good RPG where your character interacts within a story. This includes having meaningful choices and consquences that gives the player a sense their actions and decision are meaningful within the game world. I also believe your character should have meaningful interaction with NPCs  and if in a party based RPG , the NPCs interact amongst each other and with your character, especially on key  questionable decisions where personalities or agendas of  the NPCs clash. This usually adds to the immersion of the game world.  I think good storybased RPGs should have a fair balance linear/non-linear game play where the player can go off the beaten path and explore the nooks and crannies of the game. Leveling and character improvement and customization are key components of a any good RPG. The most enjoyable part of the RPG experience to me is building up my character that by the game's conclusion I am the badest mofo in the whole game. I think ME 2 pretty much has all of these elements, Sure some elements are a little shallow than I like but overall there is enough meat on the bone to satisify me.

[Whatever42]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Interacting your character with a story. So...is Heavy Rain an rpg? How about the Force Unleashed? At the end you decide Starkillers' care by choosing to either fight and kill Darth Vader or Emperor Palpatine.

By that definition alone, The Force Unleashed is an rpg.

Heavy Rain shares more in common with games like D&D than Mass Effect does. It is a story game that unfolds differently based on your choices.

And you're saying that making one decision that leads to one of two ending cutscenes is the pinnacle of role playing? Because that's certainly not what I was saying.

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

There is no line. Role playing is playing a role. There was role playing before there was D&D. The dice rolling, turn-based, minature on maps thing happened because Gary Gygax adapted the tabletop wargamming ruleset to roleplaying.

However, there were, and I imagine still are, roleplaying games that are not based on that ruleset. CRPGs used that ruleset because it was easy to program. However, now there are different gameplay mechanisms that can be adapted to roleplaying. There is no line to cross here. Its as legitimate as what Gary Gygax did 40 years ago.

Now I do understand that some people define roleplaying by the tabletop wargaming rules. You are completely free to do so. However, I learned with the ME series that I am quite happy with roleplaying within the current ruleset. Now, I do agree that there are certain elements important to roleplaying, such as the ability to customize, but many CRPGs are light on some crucial elements. JRPGS lack choice, Bethesda RPGs lack meaningful character progression, and ME2 was a little light on customization options. However, I won't throw any of them out of the club.

Now you're free to draw the line where you want. Some people would never admit that a CRPG is really an RPG in the first place and by their definition, they are correct. However its really a pointless discussion because we all simply refuse to agree on a standard definition and there is no authority to force the issue.

[Abstract]

Why is appealing to more than one demographic a bad thing? It's called business 101. Just because they were trying to market it to shooter fans as well doesn't mean they now hate RPG fans. Polite Assassin, your biggest problem is you are getting hung up on the fact that they aren't JUST appealing singularly to RPG fans. Get over it. Companies kind of need to make money in order to continue producing games.

God forbid Bioware tries to gain more fans from a demographic so looked down upon by Polite, those cretins! how dare they appeal to anyone other than us "core" RPG fans, who are quite obviously the pinnacle of intellect and intelligence. All hail living in a bubble and stroking the ego of pretenious fans. Hear hear!

Modifié par Abstract, 07 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[TheKillerAngel]

sympathy4saren wrote...

I will begin with one, only one, small example. Sound fair? This thing is in every rpg...it is a place you hold your stuff...a place to check and analyze statistics...

Think of an rpg. Think of what is in it. It starts with an "I", and ends in "nventory". Do you know of an rpg without one, other than tps claiming to be an rpg?

The Mass Effect series is not strictly an RPG or Third Person Shooter - it takes elements of both. And while an inventory is a common feature of many RPG's, it is not the defining factor. ME2's inventory is not a traditional "magic box that can hold x armor or whatever. You choose what weapons you carry, and in ME3, you can customize them. It ist he convergence of multiple elements - the story and setting, exploration and quests, character actions and abilities - that give the Mass Effect series RPG qualities. 

sympathy4saren wrote...

Yeah, because holding a button down so I can dudebro shoot everything that moves, nonstop, is so much fun.

By looting, you look for stuff, get stuff, get rich. Awesome, more health. Sweet, a new powerful weapon. And you EXPLORE to find these things. It gives you the ability to define your character by choosing what you do and do not want to have.

But dudebro, Call of Duty x box!!!!

Poking around crates looking for random stuff and somehow finding an uber gun just doesn't sound very realistic in the context of a game like Mass Effect. Shepard has access to some of the best weapons and technology - why would s/he need to loot corpses (unless s/he was looking for ammo, and thats really about it). Any armor you could pick up from a dead person would be shot to pieces. Mass-produced weaponry (like most firearms) don't really differ that much from each other (Unless you're carrying some special custom model with fancy attachments, your M4 is probably not that much different from the M4 the guy next to you has).

[sympathy4saren]

Sidney wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...
I will begin with one, only one, small example. Sound fair? This thing is in every rpg...it is a place you hold your stuff...a place to check and analyze statistics...

Think of an rpg. Think of what is in it. It starts with an "I", and ends in "nventory". Do you know of an rpg without one, other than tps claiming to be an rpg?

Ever bother to ask why the hell is this in the RPG? What does it add? There's nothing character defining about stealing vaguely valuable stuff off the recently deceased or having 9 swords, 3 suits of armor and more bottles on your person than the soda aisle at your local market. It should slap in you in the face over and over and over with how stupid it is but so many people are so fundamentalist about this genre that if it was ever in Baldur's Gate then god forbid it isn't in every game henceforth.

It gives you the ability to define your character with ultimate customization by letting you choose what you do or do not want to have.

I have this weapon, Weapon A. I loot somebody, and get a better weapon. Weapon A is crap compared to this weapon, and I dont need it.

Weapon A is dropped from Inventory.

Because I dont want it anymore.

It allows for optimal customization of gear, optimal flexibility in diverse circumstances (oh no, I was wearing armor that diverted heavy rounds, now up ahead are creatures with lasers, let me switch over to armor with a high percentage of Geth shielding to be efficient in taking damage, etc.

It also fosters exploration.

I'm on a beautifully created planet with amazing alien scenery, and there is a lot of land to explore. I heard rumors from an NPC that there is a very special unique weapon hidden here somewhere, let's see if I can find it!

Full customization and fostering of exploration.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 07 juin 2011 - 03:52 .