556 réponses à ce sujet

[Gatt9]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

And to add more to my post above Mr. Lee, the shooter fans already know that there's going to be pew pew in ME. However the RPG fans don't have the slightest idea of whether or not it will be since you guys stripped it bare in the second game. So was it wise to show off more shooting, or would it have been much better to put the "core fan's" mind at ease?

-Polite

-Polite

That's pretty much my takeaway here.  Reminds me of the E3 right before Fallout 3's release,  where Bethseda spent the whole thing talking about how great of a shooter it was.  It doesn't make me very confident,  or likely to make a Day 1 purchase,  of your RPG when all you're talking about is Shooter Shooter Shooter.  I can get that from Gears of War's show,  or COD's,  or any of 3 dozen other studio's games.  Odds are really good they'll all be better shooters too,  so mabye tell about about the RPG instead.

Something is just horribly wrong with the Industry when the only thing to talk about is how great of a Shooter your game is.  "You can have any game you want,  just so long as the only game you want is a Shooter".

I'm going to stop there on that topic before I start diving into why we're headed for a market crash again.

As far as the big "picture post" a couple posts above me goes, there's more than one way to play an RPG.  Munchkin,  Hack-n-Slash,  Monty Haul,  Min-Max,  they're all valid types of approaches to an RPG,  all supported by every ruleset created.  So the poster you're flaming,  he's right,  he does have a valid type of RPG there.  It may not be your style,  but it's still an RPG.

I also have to point out,  their...

Mass Effect does the player interaction with a story in a level never seen before to 3 separate video games taking the illusion of choice to a new level becoming a standard on the genre.

Um,  I'm sorry,  strongly disagree.  Most espeically in ME2,  there's no interaction or choice.  Your Shepherd and mine end up almost completely identical.  The only differences are Ashley vs Kadian,  Samara vs Daughter,  and whether or not Wrex lived.  You killed the same things I did,  in the same places,  pretty much in the same way,  with the exact same outcomes,  since there's no other deviation.  Everyone ends the game in the same way,  got there in the same way,  and there's no difference in our games.

Contrast this to a 13 year old game,  Fallout,  where depending on your stats and attributes we could've had completely different dialogues,  completely different outcomes from quests,  we could've had different companions because of our skills and dialogue choices,  we could've even ended the game in completely different ways.

The bar was set,  13 years ago,  and Bioware isn't able to even come remotely close 13 years later.  Yes,  it is possible that they'll manage to compare by the end of the 3rd game,  but right now,  they can't compete with a game 13 years old,  designed to run on a chip slower than my cell phone.

Modifié par Gatt9, 07 juin 2011 - 03:40 .

[jakal66]

Utill we define what a real RPG is and consists of then this discussion is obsolete fot the fact that some ppl say it's this other ppl say it's that.Individual thoughts or point of views matter little because in the end its "I believe this vs I believe that"...and when it comes down to that...you won't have a posituve resolution.

[DialupToaster]

Solid N7 wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Everything seen so far shouts "Gears of War" action game, including a silly "Awesome Button" melee lightsaber. Show us some of the "promised" enhanced role playing abilities. Or were that just empty words? I kinda expect it.

Totally agree not Impressed so far

These hardcore rpg gamers should die :innocent:

Better... lets sell them fake spreadsheets about the game/abilities/items and make BILLIONS!

[In Exile]

This is a serious pet peeve of mine. Quest or encounter XP is a central RPG feature. XP per kill is not the only way to show character progression. What ME2 did is a lot like what D&D did, with XP being awarded only at the end of a quest, not during.

[ramnozack]

sympathy4saren wrote...

ramnozack wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

x-Legion-x wrote...

RPG elements -

EXP per kill

Alot Of Loot

Big skill trees

High Level Caps

I see none of these in the demo

why does everyone want to make shooter games, I still think
ME1 will always have the best RPG elements

So, that's what you think are core RPG elements? Are you a WOW player? ME1 best RPG elements?

Kids these days...

Damn you haters, RPGs are and always will be about interacting your character with a story. Game systems are means to support the interaction with a story, not the other way. Have you guys never played pen and paper RPG? Did you play to level up characters and get lots of loot and gold, etc? Then you're doing it wrong.

And guess what? Mass Effect does the player interaction with a story in a level never seen before to 3 separate video games taking the illusion of choice to a new level becoming a standard on the genre.



If you want loot, exp, skill tress, high level caps, millions of quests, not a roleplaying game, wait a little, Diablo 3 is coming.

Peace.

What grinding lvl 1 dog sized rats till u lvl up so u can go kill lvl 3 goblins isn't fun?!?!!!??!!! How about stealing everything you have off a corpse or someone's chest that they left randomly in a skeleton filled dungeon. But of course let us not forget killing cows for 3 hours to make yourself some leather boots you'll replace in an hour of making them =/

Anyway I like the current system they have going in ME 2 the only thing wrong with ME 2 was that the skill trees really weren't Impressive. You could max out almost every power u had in ME 2 we need more choice in ME 3 also the global CD system was kinda messed up. It pigeonholed classes like Solider and Vanguard into using 1 power most of the time. But i have high hopes that will change in ME 3.

Yeah, because holding a button down so I can dudebro shoot everything that moves, nonstop, is so much fun.

By looting, you look for stuff, get stuff, get rich. Awesome, more health. Sweet, a new powerful weapon. And you EXPLORE to find these things. It gives you the ability to define your character by choosing what you do and do not want to have.

But dudebro, Call of Duty x box!!!!

I never explored just to find loot because i knew by the end of the lvl i would probably get 150 item limit and couldn't carry anything more. And searching for a shotgun that has +1 more dmg then my current shotgun for my vanguard is not fun. Looting dead corpses isn't how i want my shep to be defined aparently neither does bioware. I dont want my Shep to be "defined" by hacking open crates and stealing sht either. And its completely unrealistic and dumb for shep to carry 150 suits of armor and weapons and be able to change them on the fly while people shoot at you. Looting is awesome in other rpg's like  WoW and other RPG's like that but even in those rpgs you cant carry a portable armoy in this magical invisble big as$ backpack.

EDIT: just as a sidenot i dont even own a damn xbox =/

Modifié par ramnozack, 07 juin 2011 - 03:45 .

[Dangerfoot]

I don't get it, Sympathy4Saren, are you saying that Role Playing is not the central element of Role Playing Games and that it is in fact the ability to wear and use different equipment that is the central element?

[TheBlackBaron]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Sidney wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...
I will begin with one, only one, small example. Sound fair? This thing is in every rpg...it is a place you hold your stuff...a place to check and analyze statistics...

Think of an rpg. Think of what is in it. It starts with an "I", and ends in "nventory". Do you know of an rpg without one, other than tps claiming to be an rpg?

Ever bother to ask why the hell is this in the RPG? What does it add? There's nothing character defining about stealing vaguely valuable stuff off the recently deceased or having 9 swords, 3 suits of armor and more bottles on your person than the soda aisle at your local market. It should slap in you in the face over and over and over with how stupid it is but so many people are so fundamentalist about this genre that if it was ever in Baldur's Gate then god forbid it isn't in every game henceforth.

It gives you the ability to define your character with ultimate customization by letting you choose what you do or do not want to have.

I have this weapon, Weapon A. I loot somebody, and get a better weapon. Weapon A is crap compared to this weapon, and I dont need it.

Weapon A is dropped from Inventory.

Because I dont want it anymore.

It allows for optimal customization of gear, optimal flexibility in diverse circumstances (oh no, I was wearing armor that diverted heavy rounds, now up ahead are creatures with lasers, let me with over to armor with a high percentage of Geth shielding to be efficient in taking damage, etc.

It also fosters exploration.

I'm on a beautifully created planet with amazing alien scenery, and there is a lot of land to explore. I heard rumors from an NPC that there is a very special unique weapon hidden here somewhere, let's see if I can find it!

Full customization and fostering of exploration.

This isn't the ****ing Forgotten Realms. Hate to break it to you, man, but Mass Effect at least aspires to a relatively realistic sci-fi set in the future of our own world. In real life, we don't carry around 3 sets of armor and 9 weapons with us at all times, and there are not unique Carbines of +4 Varrenslaying hidden in caves that only a specific person has heard rumors of. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 07 juin 2011 - 03:44 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

It's a public demonstration at E3. They aren't going to show the RPG elements of the game because all the people are interested in is the PEW PEW and BOOM. Also, they showcased the Kinect.

Wait for more substantial interviews to come out before we start making judgements on the game.

That's my opinion.

[DialupToaster]

Chris Priestly wrote...

I'm sorry, you are asking "where is the roleplaying" in the (roughly) 3 minutes of in-game video you have seen so far?

Seriously?

I feel your pain... But maney not as much as you guys do everyday, I can just turn off my computer.


They want the spreadsheets, thats all they will ever want!

[Sidney]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Full customization and fostering of exploration.

If you define your chatracter by what they wear then we're not even on the same planet and you are more interested in Diablo II than playing a real role. In your example you are, once more, not making choices but being able to hot swap whatever works best. Like so many other "role players" you want choice w/o consequence. If you view an RPG as an exercise in min/maxing stats and equipment  then what you want works but that's not what an RPG should be about. - go play WoW where that is the only goal. Plus, you have a mostly meaningless example since in almost all games the best stuff is the same best stuff all the rest of us are wearing. At the end of ME1 we are all wearing the same armor and using the same guns. At the end of DAO we're all wearing the same 3 suits of armor on our warriors, the same 2 on our rogues and so on.

If finding a better foozle is the only incentive for exploration then the game has failed. I don't wander the Wasteland in FO trying to find a better gun, I wander it because I never know when I'll find something interest to do. What isn't interesting is looking in a barrel for Squirrel on a Stick.

[ink07]

Jarrett Lee wrote...

We're just winding up the marketing machine into gear - E3 being the first big coming out for the dudebro shooter demographic easily impressed by explosions and shooting galleries. Plenty of months to go, preorder bonuses to announce and shooting corridors to script and we intend to leave the RPG stuff for later, probably. Not that you (you know, our actual audience) care.

Oh well, when you put it like that what can I say. I mean, it is not like the guys who post here buy your games anyways, you got those on the bag, right, gotta go first for those dudebro shooter dollars. Well, you got me. I will sit here and wait for you to SHOW me you stil do RPGs. No sweat, I won't go anywhere.

Modifié par ink07, 07 juin 2011 - 03:49 .

[Gatt9]

jakal66 wrote...

Utill we define what a real RPG is and consists of then this discussion is obsolete fot the fact that some ppl say it's this other ppl say it's that.Individual thoughts or point of views matter little because in the end its "I believe this vs I believe that"...and when it comes down to that...you won't have a posituve resolution.

Disagree.

A real RPG is character based skill,  from there you've got endless variants.  But to take a Role,  you have to assume the Role's ability and not your own,  and to do that,  character based skill must dominate.

Past that,  you've got endless variants from levelless,  Hack-n-Slash,  Monty Haul,  Min-Max,  Munchkin,  Low Magic,  High Magic,  Low Tech,  High Tech,  Narrative driven,  Player driven,  Skill based,  class based,  and many more.

Problem is,  you can't put most of those people in a room together.  Bad things happen when you put a Narrative driven player in a room with anyone else,  worse things happen when you try putting a LARPser in there.  Min-Max doesn't do all that well with the Munchkins either.  That one leads to some pretty entertaining "My character can beat up your character!" fights.

[Sidney]

In Exile wrote...

This is a serious pet peeve of mine. Quest or encounter XP is a central RPG feature. XP per kill is not the only way to show character progression. What ME2 did is a lot like what D&D did, with XP being awarded only at the end of a quest, not during.

XP per kill is silly. ME2 is 100% right. You are asked to do X. X is, in most cases, not accumulate a body count.

Put another way if TIM asks you to recover the Collector Plans and you kill 20 collectors and don't get the plans why do you get a reward? You have failed. At the same time, if I get the plans and do so with no killing why should I get fewer XP?

[Elite Midget]

The Roleplaying is hidden in the cleavage of your catsuit.

[Whatever42]

Gatt9 wrote...

jakal66 wrote...

Utill we define what a real RPG is and consists of then this discussion is obsolete fot the fact that some ppl say it's this other ppl say it's that.Individual thoughts or point of views matter little because in the end its "I believe this vs I believe that"...and when it comes down to that...you won't have a posituve resolution.

Disagree.

A real RPG is character based skill,  from there you've got endless variants.  But to take a Role,  you have to assume the Role's ability and not your own,  and to do that,  character based skill must dominate.

We do assume a role's ability. I can't shoot a gun or throw a singularity. Or do you mean that the character should be good at combat even though I have no gaming skill? If that's the case, BG2 and DA:O are not a role playing games. There are levels of difficulty with those games too. Some people don't having the gaming skill to play at the highest levels of difficulty (although its usually all about kiting anyway).

But regardless, you're just making that definition up. There is no holy RPG book that says that if you have to put crosshairs on a target that its not an RPG.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 07 juin 2011 - 03:56 .

[Whatever42]

Elite Midget wrote...

The Roleplaying is hidden in the cleavage of your catsuit.

You need to relax, man.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Dangerfoot wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

Games nowadays are almost all hybrids of somekind. A collection of elements and mini games collaborated into one package. Because of this, the line is quite blurred. But I think most people will agree that the most relevent aspect of a Role Playing Game, is the Role Playing. Not the stats, or the loot, or the inventory, at least not specifically; those things are still nice in an RPG. A good RPG should be like a choose your own adventure book. The more defined and colorful the choices, the better and more rewarding it will be for Role Players to replay.

This. It's hard to fit nowadays games just in genres like in the past. Games have evolved and changed. Do you guys know why RPGs were all around stats, dice rolls, dungeon crawling, medieval setting? Because it was new and fresh back then. As time passed the developers started experimenting, thinking "what if we did this in our RPG game"? And then games like Deus Ex, Chrono Trigger, System Shock, Mass Effect, Fallout, Vampire: The Masquerade, Valkyrie Profile, etc, etc etc were born. Every game tries to bring something new and things change over time. This could be applied to any video game genre anyway. That's why I try to think about what defines a TRUE RPG game very personal to me. But in general, the definition is a bit different. For me it will always be about creating a character and interacting with a story, in the pen and paper and/or a video game. I'll call other games that don't fit this deffinition RPG too, but on the inside I don't think they are, for example: mostly all JRPGs, MMOs (beside SW:TOR), Diablo and other hack n slash dungeon crawlers, etc.

Edit: Oh, I think this thread will be close in a while since we're discussing what is an RPG. I hope you all are getting some good information here while it lasts.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 07 juin 2011 - 03:54 .

[DialupToaster]

randomchasegurney wrote...

Solid N7 wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Everything seen so far shouts "Gears of War" action game, including a silly "Awesome Button" melee lightsaber. Show us some of the "promised" enhanced role playing abilities. Or were that just empty words? I kinda expect it.

Totally agree not Impressed so far

These hardcore rpg gamers should die :innocent:

Better... lets sell them fake spreadsheets about the game/abilities/items and make BILLIONS!

Ah screw it... I'm just gonna paint Mass Effect 3 on fallout and make billions.

[Eldareus]

Sidney wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

Ask the other way, IWD or Diablo has NOTHING character influencing the story but a lot of stats, looting and leveling yet those things don't even deserve to be called an RPG. Those and WoW are leveling games not role playing games because there's no role to be played unless the role is XP ****.

I totally agree with you. I  loved the IWD series but your right, the game was more of a party based tactical combat game than a true RPG. I never enjoyed Diablo or the clones due to the simplistic, repetitive,  clickfest combat. Both these IWD and Diablo had a very linear story with zero choice or consequences and zero party interaction. Dealings with NPCs were minimal as well. Both of these series  included inventory, looting, and character leveling that some folks here identify as RPGs but  I would offer up the excellent witcher 2 as a truer defination of a RPG experience. The Mass effect series has more RPG elements than either  the IWD series or Diablo series, plus a kick ass story to boot.

[FluffyScarf]

Weird, they didn't show any RPG in Obli - I mean the Skyrim trailer either. All they showed were hack and slash and the use of Force pow - dragon shouts instead. Why didn't they browse through the inventory/ability trees? You think people are going to be interested in watching someone looting or organizing their sword collection? RPG nerds only interested in numbers and min/maxing, yes. Normal people. No.

[ink07]

Sidney wrote...

In Exile wrote...

This is a serious pet peeve of mine. Quest or encounter XP is a central RPG feature. XP per kill is not the only way to show character progression. What ME2 did is a lot like what D&D did, with XP being awarded only at the end of a quest, not during.

XP per kill is silly. ME2 is 100% right. You are asked to do X. X is, in most cases, not accumulate a body count.

When the game is a corridor shooter and there is no real penalty for the path you choose or no chance of failure whatever system ends up being the same. Its not like you can sneak up your way through a level, there is always combat, most of it scripted and the amount of enemies are the same regardless of class or crew, so it is pointless in the end to point to the XP screen as a success in ME2.

Modifié par ink07, 07 juin 2011 - 04:00 .

[FluffyScarf]

Sounds just like ME1. Don't kid yourself if you thought there weren't corridors in those dull levels.

[Dangerfoot]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...
Games nowadays are almost all hybrids of somekind. A collection of elements and mini games collaborated into one package. Because of this, the line is quite blurred. But I think most people will agree that the most relevent aspect of a Role Playing Game, is the Role Playing. Not the stats, or the loot, or the inventory, at least not specifically; those things are still nice in an RPG. A good RPG should be like a choose your own adventure book. The more defined and colorful the choices, the better and more rewarding it will be for Role Players to replay.

I'll call other games that don't fit this deffinition RPG too, but on the inside I don't think they are, for example: mostly all JRPGs, MMOs (beside SW:TOR), Diablo and other hack n slash dungeon crawlers, etc.

Agreed. To me, most video games are a roller coaster. A visceral experience that allows the player to enjoy an experience that the game developers have laid out the framework for. If you look too hard, you see the rails under your cart and you start to realize you aren't role playing. In games that don't try very hard to be RPGs, the rails are blindingly obvious. And there's nothing wrong with games that are "an experience", or "a ride". Some of my favorite games have been on rails, and they've had great stories to tell.

But RPGs should focus on who you want your character to be, not who the developers want their character to be. And that's something that will always have a place in my heart.

[sympathy4saren]

Dangerfoot wrote...

I don't get it, Sympathy4Saren, are you saying that Role Playing is not the central element of Role Playing Games and that it is in fact the ability to wear and use different equipment that is the central element?

No, not at all. It is a corresponding element, along with story. The two are compatable and intertwined. I must be able to influence story, but likewise, you must also be able to influence and have total control over what you have and what you want to use, at any given time.

You can't have choices predetermimed, but you can't have your apparel and the items you carry predetermimed as well. I can choose to spare the life of person A, but I can't choose to drop this crappy pistol?

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 07 juin 2011 - 04:06 .

[ink07]

At least ME had the potential there. Exploration and open world design was something I expected to be built upon, not scrapped in favour of making this game the next Gears of War. *shrugs*