556 réponses à ce sujet

[FluffyScarf]

Keep telling yourself that RPGs are superior to other genres. Hint: They're not.

[Solid N7]

Eldareus wrote...

Sidney wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

Ask the other way, IWD or Diablo has NOTHING character influencing the story but a lot of stats, looting and leveling yet those things don't even deserve to be called an RPG. Those and WoW are leveling games not role playing games because there's no role to be played unless the role is XP ****.

I totally agree with you. I  loved the IWD series but your right, the game was more of a party based tactical combat game than a true RPG. I never enjoyed Diablo or the clones due to the simplistic, repetitive,  clickfest combat. Both these IWD and Diablo had a very linear story with zero choice or consequences and zero party interaction. Dealings with NPCs were minimal as well. Both of these series  included inventory, looting, and character leveling that some folks here identify as RPGs but  I would offer up the excellent witcher 2 as a truer defination of a RPG experience. The Mass effect series has more RPG elements than either  the IWD series or Diablo series, plus a kick ass story to boot.

I agree, The witcher 1 and 2 are excellent  games.

[sympathy4saren]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Sidney wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...
I will begin with one, only one, small example. Sound fair? This thing is in every rpg...it is a place you hold your stuff...a place to check and analyze statistics...

Think of an rpg. Think of what is in it. It starts with an "I", and ends in "nventory". Do you know of an rpg without one, other than tps claiming to be an rpg?

Ever bother to ask why the hell is this in the RPG? What does it add? There's nothing character defining about stealing vaguely valuable stuff off the recently deceased or having 9 swords, 3 suits of armor and more bottles on your person than the soda aisle at your local market. It should slap in you in the face over and over and over with how stupid it is but so many people are so fundamentalist about this genre that if it was ever in Baldur's Gate then god forbid it isn't in every game henceforth.

It gives you the ability to define your character with ultimate customization by letting you choose what you do or do not want to have.

I have this weapon, Weapon A. I loot somebody, and get a better weapon. Weapon A is crap compared to this weapon, and I dont need it.

Weapon A is dropped from Inventory.

Because I dont want it anymore.

It allows for optimal customization of gear, optimal flexibility in diverse circumstances (oh no, I was wearing armor that diverted heavy rounds, now up ahead are creatures with lasers, let me with over to armor with a high percentage of Geth shielding to be efficient in taking damage, etc.

It also fosters exploration.

I'm on a beautifully created planet with amazing alien scenery, and there is a lot of land to explore. I heard rumors from an NPC that there is a very special unique weapon hidden here somewhere, let's see if I can find it!

Full customization and fostering of exploration.

This isn't the ****ing Forgotten Realms. Hate to break it to you, man, but Mass Effect at least aspires to a relatively realistic sci-fi set in the future of our own world. In real life, we don't carry around 3 sets of armor and 9 weapons with us at all times, and there are not unique Carbines of +4 Varrenslaying hidden in caves that only a specific person has heard rumors of. 

Yeah, but you can travel faster than the speed of light. Uh huh.

[jakal66]

FluffyScarf wrote...

Weird, they didn't show any RPG in Obli - I mean the Skyrim trailer either. All they showed were hack and slash and the use of Force pow - dragon shouts instead. Why didn't they browse through the inventory/ability trees? You think people are going to be interested in watching someone looting or organizing their sword collection? RPG nerds only interested in numbers and min/maxing, yes. Normal people. No.

hey,watch it...no need to get all aggressive, you're here posting in this webpage clearly makes you a hell of a Nerd too...so go figure

[Solid N7]

FluffyScarf wrote...

Weird, they didn't show any RPG in Obli - I mean the Skyrim trailer either. All they showed were hack and slash and the use of Force pow - dragon shouts instead. Why didn't they browse through the inventory/ability trees? You think people are going to be interested in watching someone looting or organizing their sword collection? RPG nerds only interested in numbers and min/maxing, yes. Normal people. No.

hahahaha :lol:lol a sad true to these hardcore rpg gamers.

[ramnozack]

Eldareus wrote...

Sidney wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

It is character choices influencing story, though. So where is the line at?

Ask the other way, IWD or Diablo has NOTHING character influencing the story but a lot of stats, looting and leveling yet those things don't even deserve to be called an RPG. Those and WoW are leveling games not role playing games because there's no role to be played unless the role is XP ****.

I totally agree with you. I  loved the IWD series but your right, the game was more of a party based tactical combat game than a true RPG. I never enjoyed Diablo or the clones due to the simplistic, repetitive,  clickfest combat. Both these IWD and Diablo had a very linear story with zero choice or consequences and zero party interaction. Dealings with NPCs were minimal as well. Both of these series  included inventory, looting, and character leveling that some folks here identify as RPGs but  I would offer up the excellent witcher 2 as a truer defination of a RPG experience. The Mass effect series has more RPG elements than either  the IWD series or Diablo series, plus a kick ass story to boot.

RPG means alot of things to alot of people. All because WoW doesn't fit your idea of a RPG doesn't make it not one.
RPG = Role Playing Game. In WoW to run a dungeon you need to choose from 9 classes, most of which can do a secondary job, to fill a 5 man party. 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps. Tank is a role healer is a role dps is a role. They all have roles in the party tank to protect others from harm healers to fix up the people who do get harmed and dps to kill the things killing you before the healer runs out of resources. They have roles and they are playing a game add that together you have RPG slide a mmo before that since it has millions of people playing it online and there you go.

RPG can also be story based to some people. Like in Mass Effect in short Commander Shepard's Role while Playing the Game is to save the galaxy from the reaper invasion.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Dangerfoot wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...
Games nowadays are almost all hybrids of somekind. A collection of elements and mini games collaborated into one package. Because of this, the line is quite blurred. But I think most people will agree that the most relevent aspect of a Role Playing Game, is the Role Playing. Not the stats, or the loot, or the inventory, at least not specifically; those things are still nice in an RPG. A good RPG should be like a choose your own adventure book. The more defined and colorful the choices, the better and more rewarding it will be for Role Players to replay.

I'll call other games that don't fit this deffinition RPG too, but on the inside I don't think they are, for example: mostly all JRPGs, MMOs (beside SW:TOR), Diablo and other hack n slash dungeon crawlers, etc.

Agreed. To me, most video games are a roller coaster. A visceral experience that allows the player to enjoy an experience that the game developers have laid out the framework for. If you look too hard, you see the rails under your cart and you start to realize you aren't role playing. In games that don't try very hard to be RPGs, the rails are blindingly obvious. And there's nothing wrong with games that are "an experience", or "a ride". Some of my favorite games have been on rails, and they've had great stories to tell.

But RPGs should focus on who you want your character to be, not who the developers want their character to be. And that's something that will always have a place in my heart.

True, very true. That's why I said here some other time that CRPGs can never be "true" RPGs. You cannot truly roleplay your character because what you have available are already scripted choices in an already scripted narrative. What you have as major roleplay mechanics is consequence x, y, z based on choice x, y, and z, very differently when you're playing classic RPG with a dungeon master, where you say what you want, do what you want. This depending on the situation of course but I think everyone is able to see my point.

[Dangerfoot]

FluffyScarf wrote...

Keep telling yourself that RPGs are superior to other genres. Hint: They're not.

In your opinion.

[ink07]

Yeah, he is clearly not a nerd, I mean, its not like he is in the Bioware forums in the middle of the night posting about a game shown at E3. Totally normal, I mean, he is probably posting this from his iPhone at some club in New york or something. LOL

[sympathy4saren]

Sidney wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Full customization and fostering of exploration.

If you define your chatracter by what they wear then we're not even on the same planet and you are more interested in Diablo II than playing a real role. In your example you are, once more, not making choices but being able to hot swap whatever works best. Like so many other "role players" you want choice w/o consequence. If you view an RPG as an exercise in min/maxing stats and equipment  then what you want works but that's not what an RPG should be about. - go play WoW where that is the only goal. Plus, you have a mostly meaningless example since in almost all games the best stuff is the same best stuff all the rest of us are wearing. At the end of ME1 we are all wearing the same armor and using the same guns. At the end of DAO we're all wearing the same 3 suits of armor on our warriors, the same 2 on our rogues and so on.

If finding a better foozle is the only incentive for exploration then the game has failed. I don't wander the Wasteland in FO trying to find a better gun, I wander it because I never know when I'll find something interest to do. What isn't interesting is looking in a barrel for Squirrel on a Stick.

As I have already stated, at the end of The Force Unleashed, you choose the outcome of your character's fate and the outcome of the ending by the choices you make.

The Force Unleashed, you are arguing, is an rpg.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 07 juin 2011 - 04:17 .

[jakal66]

ink07 wrote...

Yeah, he is clearly not a nerd, I mean, its not like he is in the Bioware forums in the middle of the night posting about a game shown at E3. Totally normal, I mean, he is probably posting this from his iPhone at some club in New york or something. LOL

Kablaammmoo! This is what I said earlier....

[TheBlackBaron]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

I don't get it, Sympathy4Saren, are you saying that Role Playing is not the central element of Role Playing Games and that it is in fact the ability to wear and use different equipment that is the central element?

No, not at all. It is a corresponding element, along with story. The two are compatable and intertwined. I must be able to influence story, but likewise, you must also be able to influence and have total control over what you have and what you want to use, at any given time.

You can't have choices predetermimed, but you can't have your apparel and the items you carry predetermimed as well. I can choose to spare the life of person A, but I can't choose to drop this crappy pistol?

What the hell? I wasn't aware I only had four weapons to choose and one armor set in ME2. What game was I playing? 

*facepalm*

You still pick from different armors and different weapons. In some cases, these must be found or bought. Armor already had customization, weapons are now getting this back. The only difference is that there aren't ten different versions of every weapon and armor set with tiny incremental percentage increases. Do you know why? Because it doesn't fit the universe, never did, and never will.

sympathy4saren wrote...

This isn't the ****ing Forgotten Realms. Hate to break it to you, man, but Mass Effect at least aspires to a relatively realistic sci-fi set in the future of our own world. In real life, we don't carry around 3 sets of armor and 9 weapons with us at all times, and there are not unique Carbines of +4 Varrenslaying hidden in caves that only a specific person has heard rumors of. 

Yeah, but you can travel faster than the speed of light. Uh huh.

Great comeback there, Tex. Got anymore fallacies you want to use? 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 07 juin 2011 - 04:17 .

[FluffyScarf]

Yes, because the whole revolves around the US and if its night time there, it must be night time across the entire planet. Must explain all the overreactions about how ME3 is ruined just because BW didn't show an inventory and weapon mod system.

[sympathy4saren]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

I don't get it, Sympathy4Saren, are you saying that Role Playing is not the central element of Role Playing Games and that it is in fact the ability to wear and use different equipment that is the central element?

No, not at all. It is a corresponding element, along with story. The two are compatable and intertwined. I must be able to influence story, but likewise, you must also be able to influence and have total control over what you have and what you want to use, at any given time.

You can't have choices predetermimed, but you can't have your apparel and the items you carry predetermimed as well. I can choose to spare the life of person A, but I can't choose to drop this crappy pistol?

What the hell? I wasn't aware I only had four weapons to choose and one armor set in ME2. What game was I playing? 

*facepalm*

You still pick from different armors and different weapons. In some cases, these must be found or bought. Armor already had customization, weapons are now getting this back. The only difference is that there aren't ten different versions of every weapon and armor set with tiny incremental percentage increases. Do you know why? Because it doesn't fit the universe, never did, and never will.

sympathy4saren wrote...

This isn't the ****ing Forgotten Realms. Hate to break it to you, man, but Mass Effect at least aspires to a relatively realistic sci-fi set in the future of our own world. In real life, we don't carry around 3 sets of armor and 9 weapons with us at all times, and there are not unique Carbines of +4 Varrenslaying hidden in caves that only a specific person has heard rumors of. 

Yeah, but you can travel faster than the speed of light. Uh huh.

Great comeback there, Tex. Got anymore fallacies you want to use? 

Lol. Your response was hilarious. I must have made you pretty mad.

So if I don't want a pistol, I can't have none at all? Lame. I can't even have a say in weapons I do and don't want to have at any given point.

Hey dudebro, did you see those sick graphics and that wicked combat? Man, that shyt is sweet!!!! Hope there are jetpacks like in Halo!!!!

Oh, and using my sarcastic statement about faster than light travel being realistic as a counterargument to someone saying carrying inventory items is unrealistic, yet flipping my words to make it seem like it was a serious assertion I was making is super weak. Laughably weak. Show some pride in yourself and try to argue legitimately instead of resorting to attempts to derail my stance through deception.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 07 juin 2011 - 04:29 .

[ramnozack]

I was just thinking and I figured armor and weapon producers must have really pissed people off in ME 1.

Imagine you JUST bought a brand spankin new gun but you walk up to one of those advertisements which tells you a new version of the gun has been released with +1 damage. It really didnt make sense. All of the weapons in ME 1 were mass produced really (except spectre guns) yet they have 100+ variations of the SAME GUN.

[ink07]

FluffyScarf wrote...

Yes, because the whole revolves
around the US and if its night time there, it must be night time across
the entire planet. Must explain all the overreactions about how ME3 is
ruined just because BW didn't show an inventory and weapon mod
system.

Oh well, yes you got me there. Like living anywhere else in the world not called America makes you less of a nerd. It's not like you registered today only to whine about RPG nerds. Your life must be so full. Dont let me keep you in your mom's basement tho, go and live free of us Bioware forum dwellers.

Modifié par ink07, 07 juin 2011 - 04:27 .

[Eldareus]

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
True, very true. That's why I said here some other time that CRPGs can never be "true" RPGs. You cannot truly roleplay your character because what you have available are already scripted choices in an already scripted narrative. What you have as major roleplay mechanics is consequence x, y, z based on choice x, y, and z, very differently when you're playing classic RPG with a dungeon master, where you say what you want, do what you want. This depending on the situation of course but I think everyone is able to see my point.

Another excellent point. There is only so much developers can allow for within the storyline. The closet experience is the open ended games from Bethesda where the player can just wander off and do their own things but the player is still confined to limited set of choices and navigate through a bare bone quest line these type of games offer.

[FluffyScarf]

Yes, bro. But what I really wanted to see were numberz and some guy thinking about putting a point to increase his ability by 1% or 2%. That surely would salivate those hardcore 40 year old kids obsessed with traditional RPGs.

[TheBlackBaron]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Lol. Your response was hilarious. I must have made you pretty mad.

I am here to serve. 

So if I don't want a pistol, I can't have none at all? Lame. I can't even have a say in weapons I do and don't want to have at any given point.

Miss the bit were Hudson said that all classes have access to all weapons, with limited slots to carry them? Or do you simply ignore whatever doesn't favor your worldview? 

Hey dudebro, did you see those sick graphics and that wicked combat? Man, that shyt is sweet!!!! Hope there are jetpacks like in Halo!!!!

u mad, bro? 

By the by, if you're as upset about streamlining and such as you seem to be, I suggest you go talk to your buddy Todd Howard. While you're there, please ask him why my axe is considered a blunt weapon, and where my spear from Morrowind went. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 07 juin 2011 - 04:28 .

[FluffyScarf]

While we're on Skyrim, take a look at their forums. No complaints about 'where's my RPG' when the trailer shown so far only depicts combat and more combat. Have you fanatics forgotten about what Beth did to Oblivion? Or is all forgiven now that they too are removing 'RPG' elements from Skyrim?

Modifié par FluffyScarf, 07 juin 2011 - 04:31 .

[Dangerfoot]

Don't feed the Fluffy.

[jakal66]

FluffyScarf wrote...

While we're on Skyrim, take a look at their forums. No complaints about 'where's my RPG' when the trailer shown so far only depicts combat and more combat. Have you fanatics forgotten about what Beth did to Oblivion? Or is all forgiven now that they too are removing 'RPG' elements from Skyrim?

yeah well, that's because it's Skyrim...not Mass Effect 2 or in this case 3, people here were let down by ME2, they already have a basis to complain.And you know what? If you don't want to read complaints,hell Bro, you're in the Internet...basically all what people do in Forums is complain, complain, complain...so you should go watch TV or something

Edit:Oh something also people do in forums is call others Nerds and tell them to shut up and stop complaining which I actually find more annoying than just the people who complain...

Modifié par jakal66, 07 juin 2011 - 04:40 .

[FluffyScarf]

People were let down by Oblivion too. Won't stop them from getting Skyrim.

[Sidney]

sympathy4saren wrote...
As I have already stated, at the end of The Force Unleashed, you choose the outcome of your character's fate and the outcome of the ending by the choices you make.

The Force Unleashed, you are arguing, is an rpg.

Yes but you don't have a player character. In the end those are the only two things I care about in an RPG:

1. A PC that fullfils my will in the game.
2. Choice and development for my character.

Force unleashed is all about my ability as a player not my player character. Increasingly "RPG's" are losing this important element of the PC - ME1 and 2, FO3/NV, and even really Oblivion/Morrowwind where you have to aim, timing hits and raise your shield - in combat. Even in non-combat things - Simon in ME1, stupid word games in FO3. I've resigned myself to the fact that the distance from my PC and me is going to shrink - it is why DAO and even the much maligned DA2 strike such a sweet spot with me because it is still click on chest, skill check, chest opens. Sidney isn't picking locks or playing with bobby pins.

A lot of games will offer a very, very limited range of choices. Bioshock treads very close to the RPG line and really combatwise plays a lot like ME2 but doesn't offer any character defining traits other than 1. Frankly my character isn't fleshed out in the "big" decisions but in the sum of dozens of smaller decisions that really inform how I will make the big decision. In Bioshock of FU that doesn't happen.

[raynbow]

as river would say, "spoilers."
but i have no doubt the rping will be awesome, since they pushed the date back and not to mention how great the trailers and gameplay look