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So, where is the roleplaying?


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#526
Jaron Oberyn

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Ricinator wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ricinator wrote...

 i just want it made clear that the conversations are as deep and rich as in ME1, after that layer the shooter crap on us... is that so hard???


The ME1 convos were deep and rich?



Compared to most games i've played they certainly were. But Mass Effect 2 was even better imo.

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Your serious? go back and play Mass Effect again then compare against ME2... i'll wait for you


Are you saying that ME1 was better? If so, I agree. While there were some instances where all dialogue choices led to the same outcome, it wasn't as numerous as Me2's autodialogue.

-Polite

#527
Jaron Oberyn

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Abstract wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Abstract wrote...

You are the most melodramatic person on this forum. It's vaguely amusing.


I'm surprised you know the word.

-Polite


Ouch, that one hurt. Yes, because I disagree with you I am automatically less intelligent.  Perhaps not being a pretenious snob would help your case Polite.



You're breaking my heart. Troll big, or troll home bud. ;)

-Polite

#528
Ricinator

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Abstract wrote...

Ricinator wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Abstract wrote...

You are the most melodramatic person on this forum. It's vaguely amusing.


I'm surprised you know the word.

-Polite

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I agree, go back to the hole you crawled out of Abstract.


How original. Instead of stating why you apparently have something against me, you jump on Polite's bandwagon.



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indeed, because you obviously dont understand this was once a Major RPG title, and now has little to no choices left in it

#529
Crackseed

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Define how ME1 had bigger choices then ME2 for me please Rici. I'm anxious to see this one.

#530
AlanC9

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Admoniter wrote...

Sidney wrote...
XP per kill is silly. ME2 is 100% right. You are asked to do X. X is, in most cases, not accumulate a body count.

LOL yes ME1s system flawed but ME2s is no better. Infact the flaws should be incredably apparent especially if exploration is a pillar of the game. Think about it for a second, is anybodies Shep truly unique if everybody gets the same results reagardless of what they do? So for example what is the point of exploring (note: this requires exploration to actually return) when you get no exp for discoveries, or hacking when you receive nothing beyond credits, what is the point of doing anything different if you are rewarded the same as everybody else?


If exploration is a pillar of the game, then exploration ought to be rewarded in some fashion, whether through loot or XP? I'm not really sure I agree with that proposition. I thought exploration itself was the fun in the TES games. But for the sake of the argument I can go along with this.

But why should exploration be a pillar of ME's design in the first place?

Player A: goes from point A to B. Completes no additional secondary quests, kills only those infront of him and opts out of gathering any additional information that can be made availabe to him, hacks nothing, etc. Player B  thoroughly explores the environment, discover a mod for his weapon that he would ordinarly require a purchase, completes an availabe sidequest within the main mission, hacks whatever he can, etc. You are telling me that you see no problem with these to players recieving the same exp for two entirely different playthroughs?


Huh? Discovering the weapon mod gives that player the mod. He needs to have an XP reward in addition to the mod itself? Isn't the mod its own reward?

As for sidequests, they would give out quest XP anyway, wouldn't they? Whether it makes sense to be doing sidequests in the first place is another matter, but without knowing the details of the siedquest or the main quest it can't be discussed rationally.

#531
Abstract

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Ricinator wrote...

Abstract wrote...

Ricinator wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Abstract wrote...

You are the most melodramatic person on this forum. It's vaguely amusing.


I'm surprised you know the word.

-Polite

Image IPBImage IPB

I agree, go back to the hole you crawled out of Abstract.


How original. Instead of stating why you apparently have something against me, you jump on Polite's bandwagon.



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indeed, because you obviously dont understand this was once a Major RPG title, and now has little to no choices left in it


By the way, it's "you're serious?" not "your serious?", perhaps you should learn the difference before attempting to insult my vocabulary ^_^.

And Polite, I'm a troll because I disagree with you? wow. Same pretenious Polite as usual.

Modifié par Abstract, 07 juin 2011 - 06:30 .


#532
Jaron Oberyn

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Preach it Ricinator! The game has become so predefined now, it's a wonder they're still calling it an RPG!

Image IPB

-Polite

#533
Brenon Holmes

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Last chance... I know it's rather hard to be "the bigger man" and ignore it when people are obviously wrong on the internet... but we can always try, can't we?

After this, thread is closed...

(Edit, I just realized that it was the other thread I gave a warning to... oh well. It's late and I'm cranky).

Modifié par Brenon Holmes, 07 juin 2011 - 06:35 .


#534
AlanC9

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PoliteAssasin wrote...

Ricinator wrote...

ohbobsagetpiss wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ricinator wrote...

 i just want it made clear that the conversations are as deep and rich as in ME1, after that layer the shooter crap on us... is that so hard???


The ME1 convos were deep and rich?



Compared to most games i've played they certainly were. But Mass Effect 2 was even better imo.

Image IPBImage IPB

Your serious? go back and play Mass Effect again then compare against ME2... i'll wait for you


Are you saying that ME1 was better? If so, I agree. While there were some instances where all dialogue choices led to the same outcome, it wasn't as numerous as Me2's autodialogue.

-Polite


Could I have some specific examples of superior ME1 conversations? When I replayed ME1 last month what stuck out for me was the clunkiness of the dialogue branching and the way most of the companion dialogues were just info dumps. I was actually surprised at how much worse ME1 was than ME2, since I remembered them as being essentially the same quality.

#535
Jaron Oberyn

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Abstract wrote...

And Polite, I'm a troll because I disagree with you? wow. Same pretenious Polite as usual.


I don't recall you ever disagreeing with me. Where was that? I called you a troll because your last few posts towards me have been the same amusing insult that I had chosen no to engage. I got the feeling you were lonely, and decided to respond. :wub:

-Polite

#536
Crackseed

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Sorry Polite, going to have to ask YOU to also post too - please define where ME1 had bigger choices then ME2 - ME1 and 2 both did not fail to provide choices, major ones at various points, that drove the story.

The major discussion and breakdown of why ME2 feels lackluster to many stems from the RPG mechanics driving the gameplay, not the story. ME1 started the 3 response tree + Paragon/Renegade choices - ME2 added to it, not took away from it. Where people feel, and this is even what I get from you, that ME2 drifted too badly was in taking all the things under the hood away too much. Inventory, Squad customization, skill trees, mods, etc.

So I'd like to hear how ME1 was more full of choice then ME2.

#537
Jaron Oberyn

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Brenon Holmes wrote...

Last chance... I know it's rather hard to be "the bigger man" and ignore it when people are obviously wrong on the internet... but we can always try, can't we?

After this, thread is closed...

(Edit, I just realized that it was the other thread I gave a warning to... oh well. It's late and I'm cranky).


Not hard at all Mr. Holmes, just rather amusing. :) It's pretty late over here so I'll probably be heading off anyways.

-Polite

#538
Abstract

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PoliteAssasin wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Last chance... I know it's rather hard to be "the bigger man" and ignore it when people are obviously wrong on the internet... but we can always try, can't we?

After this, thread is closed...

(Edit, I just realized that it was the other thread I gave a warning to... oh well. It's late and I'm cranky).


Not hard at all Mr. Holmes, just rather amusing. :) It's pretty late over here so I'll probably be heading off anyways.

-Polite


I point you to page 18, where I typed a paragraph and blatantly disagreed. Hoping that answers your question :)

#539
Ricinator

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crackseed wrote...

Define how ME1 had bigger choices then ME2 for me please Rici. I'm anxious to see this one.

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just because ME2 has big choices doesnt mean it had a lot of them... in ME1 you could do a fair deal of side quests and feel you handled it a specific way that you wanted it done. you get a good amount of back and forth between the people you meet around the galaxy. Even the rachni queen decision had a good amount of dialogue to chew through before you had to make a choice between life or death. In ME2 the greatest example of an RPG fail i found was the ash/kaiden scene. you were forced to say the same stupid line 8 different ways and all i wanted to say was i was rebuilt by cerberus and i am not with them.... Insteed i am forced over and over to hear the same crappy lines no matter which way i choose to say them. happy i just want the good old 5 - 6 answers i could have given instead of the crappy 2 different ways.

#540
Jaron Oberyn

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crackseed wrote...

Sorry Polite, going to have to ask YOU to also post too - please define where ME1 had bigger choices then ME2 - ME1 and 2 both did not fail to provide choices, major ones at various points, that drove the story.

The major discussion and breakdown of why ME2 feels lackluster to many stems from the RPG mechanics driving the gameplay, not the story. ME1 started the 3 response tree + Paragon/Renegade choices - ME2 added to it, not took away from it. Where people feel, and this is even what I get from you, that ME2 drifted too badly was in taking all the things under the hood away too much. Inventory, Squad customization, skill trees, mods, etc.

So I'd like to hear how ME1 was more full of choice then ME2.


Not so, my major problems with ME2 were not in regards to inventory, squad customization, or mods. They were in skill trees, exploration, choice, and dialogue. All of those elements suffered significantly in contrast with Me1. It's late over here, I'm tired and I'm logging off. I'll be able to make a more effective response tomorrow than tonight.

Good night my fellow forumites,

-Polite

#541
United_Strafes

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You mean they didn't show any inventory or upgrade screens during the E3 demos those would have surely hyped up the crowd.......

#542
Jaron Oberyn

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Abstract wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Last chance... I know it's rather hard to be "the bigger man" and ignore it when people are obviously wrong on the internet... but we can always try, can't we?

After this, thread is closed...

(Edit, I just realized that it was the other thread I gave a warning to... oh well. It's late and I'm cranky).


Not hard at all Mr. Holmes, just rather amusing. :) It's pretty late over here so I'll probably be heading off anyways.

-Polite


I point you to page 18, where I typed a paragraph and blatantly disagreed. Hoping that answers your question :)


Somehow I had missed that post. In response, no my problem isn't that they're trying to appeal to a larger market. By all means, do so. But at the expense of the RPG elements? Your core fans? The fans who have been with Bioware since the beginning? It's ok if they were to please both fanbases, however they only pleased a larger target audience and left their core fans with a hole where the RPG elements were supposed to be. So to answer your blatant disagreement, I have no problem with them appealing to a larger consumer base. But don't change the genre of the game mid trilogy in order to accomplish that. You can have both strong RPG and Shooter elements. It doesnt have to be just strong Shooter elements with RPG elements sprinkled here and there, and that's essentialyl what ME2 is, and what ME3 is looking like so far.

-Polite

#543
Ricinator

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United_Strafes wrote...

You mean they didn't show any inventory or upgrade screens during the E3 demos those would have surely hyped up the crowd.......

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read the forum before you post....... for the love of god

#544
Admoniter

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AlanC9 wrote...
If exploration is a pillar of the game, then exploration ought to be rewarded in some fashion, whether through loot or XP? I'm not really sure I agree with that proposition. I thought exploration itself was the fun in the TES games. But for the sake of the argument I can go along with this.

But why should exploration be a pillar of ME's design in the first place?

Well maybe not a pillar, but it was there. Whether it was handled well is another arguement all together, but it was there and you were rewarded for it. And with the reurn of larger more open battlefields I would expect exploration to return as well. Would you not agree that those who choose to indulge their inner explorer be rewarded through exp or loot or a combination of the two?

Huh? Discovering the weapon mod gives that player the mod. He needs to have an XP reward in addition to the mod itself? Isn't the mod its own reward?

As for sidequests, they would give out quest XP anyway, wouldn't they? Whether it makes sense to be doing sidequests in the first place is another matter, but without knowing the details of the siedquest or the main quest it can't be discussed rationally.

Bad example... the point I was trying to make besides my loathing for the everbody is a winner/equal reward system was that ME1 while going overboard with the rewards (exp for mooks) it generally did a good job. Find a new codex entry: exp, hacked something: exp, locate some artifact: exp, mark some minerals: exp. The only thing that needed real tweeking was the kill per exp system, which shouldh ave just been rewarded when killing elite enemies or bosses. I would like to see this system return, the lump sum that doesn't even tell you what you're being rewarded for isn't my cup of tea.

#545
Crackseed

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Ricinator wrote...

crackseed wrote...

Define how ME1 had bigger choices then ME2 for me please Rici. I'm anxious to see this one.

Image IPBImage IPB

just because ME2 has big choices doesnt mean it had a lot of them... in ME1 you could do a fair deal of side quests and feel you handled it a specific way that you wanted it done. you get a good amount of back and forth between the people you meet around the galaxy. Even the rachni queen decision had a good amount of dialogue to chew through before you had to make a choice between life or death. In ME2 the greatest example of an RPG fail i found was the ash/kaiden scene. you were forced to say the same stupid line 8 different ways and all i wanted to say was i was rebuilt by cerberus and i am not with them.... Insteed i am forced over and over to hear the same crappy lines no matter which way i choose to say them. happy i just want the good old 5 - 6 answers i could have given instead of the crappy 2 different ways.


You are kind of reaching for anything you can get in your post here. Let's take a look at some of the points.

ME2 had big choices but there wasn't alot of them compared to ME1? Considering just about every major plot mission, squad member mission and even some of the post follow-ups were big choices? ME1 provided you a couple major choices at critical plot points whereas ME2 did the same but actually adding more due to the amount of squadmates and loyalty missions.

Horizon couldn't have had much choice - you were with Cerberus and both Ash/Kaiden hated them. You got to say what you felt was the best response and you'll get to see that play out in ME3, especially if you romanced them. How does it show ME1 had more choice? What did you do with Morinth vs Samara? Tali's loyalty mission data? Rewriting or destroying the heretic Geth? Keeping or destroying the base? Are these not major decisions that YOU as the player drive?

I would actually agree with you that ME2 had less choices to make in the side missions, but beyond a handful of relevant side missions in ME1, most of them were generic repeats of Hulk infestations or killing Geth. I think ME2 could use the exploration element back, but there were enough N7 missions in ME2 that gave you choice in how you handled something. Keeping data versus forwarding it on, yada yada. Or even the DLC missions with the end of the Overlord.

Given the length of ME2, I would argue it had more choices and player driven results then ME1 - however, I think it's fair to say that given the nature of ME1's story, the "fewer" major choices felt immensely dramatic, because, well - it was the start of the trilogy and we were basically looking at facing a game over if we failed. Whereas in ME2, we haven't reached the culmination of ME3 yet - we're having to make major choices that are leading UP to more major decisions with the ultimate ramifications for the end of the story.

So I don't buy the logic, especially given there's no real substantial evidence otherwise, that ME2 has failed because it gave you less choice. ME1 started the 3 response tree and ME2 continued it, adding interrupts. The only flaw I could put on ME2's system is that persuasion became tied in directly with Paragon/Renegade status whereas at least in ME1 you could sometimes pull of good persuasion regardless of your alignment.

Modifié par crackseed, 07 juin 2011 - 06:56 .


#546
DebatableBubble

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Can a mod just lock this thread now? It's just a bunch of what should be mature individuals resorting to insults. Seriously, it's going nowhere.

#547
Ricinator

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crackseed wrote...

Ricinator wrote...

crackseed wrote...

Define how ME1 had bigger choices then ME2 for me please Rici. I'm anxious to see this one.

Image IPBImage IPB

just because ME2 has big choices doesnt mean it had a lot of them... in ME1 you could do a fair deal of side quests and feel you handled it a specific way that you wanted it done. you get a good amount of back and forth between the people you meet around the galaxy. Even the rachni queen decision had a good amount of dialogue to chew through before you had to make a choice between life or death. In ME2 the greatest example of an RPG fail i found was the ash/kaiden scene. you were forced to say the same stupid line 8 different ways and all i wanted to say was i was rebuilt by cerberus and i am not with them.... Insteed i am forced over and over to hear the same crappy lines no matter which way i choose to say them. happy i just want the good old 5 - 6 answers i could have given instead of the crappy 2 different ways.


You are kind of reaching for anything you can get in your post here. Let's take a look at some of the points.

ME2 had big choices but there wasn't alot of them compared to ME1? Considering just about every major plot mission, squad member mission and even some of the post follow-ups were big choices? ME1 provided you a couple major choices at critical plot points whereas ME2 did the same but actually adding more due to the amount of squadmates and loyalty missions.

Horizon couldn't have had much choice - you were with Cerberus and both Ash/Kaiden hated them. You got to say what you felt was the best response and you'll get to see that play out in ME3, especially if you romanced them. How does it show ME1 had more choice? What did you do with Morinth vs Samara? Tali's loyalty mission data? Rewriting or destroying the heretic Geth? Keeping or destroying the base? Are these not major decisions that YOU as the player drive?

I would actually agree with you that ME2 had less choices to make in the side missions, but beyond a handful of relevant side missions in ME1, most of them were generic repeats of Hulk infestations or killing Geth. I think ME2 could use the exploration element back, but there were enough N7 missions in ME2 that gave you choice in how you handled something. Keeping data versus forwarding it on, yada yada. Or even the DLC missions with the end of the Overlord.

Given the length of ME2, I would argue it had more choices and player driven results then ME1 - however, I think it's fair to say that given the nature of ME1's story, the "fewer" major choices felt immensely dramatic, because, well - it was the start of the trilogy and we were basically looking at facing a game over if we failed. Whereas in ME2, we haven't reached the culmination of ME3 yet - we're having to make major choices that are leading UP to more major decisions with the ultimate ramifications for the end of the story.

So I don't buy the logic, especially given there's no real substantial evidence otherwise, that ME2 has failed because it gave you less choice. ME1 started the 3 response tree and ME2 continued it, adding interrupts. The only flaw I could put on ME2's system is that persuasion became tied in directly with Paragon/Renegade status whereas at least in ME1 you could sometimes pull of good persuasion regardless of your alignment.

Image IPBImage IPB

i'm not talking about just big decisions yes ME2 had more big decisions then ME1. What i'm saying is ME1 handle pure conversations, filing you in on detail you may want to know before making a decision, or even just going renegade on them and skipping the whole song and dance.... You just have more options in term of driving the story. In ME2 Every choice leads to essentially the same outcome give or take a dead person.Image IPBImage IPB

Modifié par Ricinator, 07 juin 2011 - 07:04 .


#548
MrGone

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I just got here - am not reading through 20 pages of an obvious flame war - but the OP did get me thinking . . .

One day I want to see a company show off their epic new action RPG. One that has impressive next-gen graphics that border on painstakingly beautiful, voice acting for thousands of lines of dialogue for even the most minor of NPCs, a branching plot line that accounts for virtually every decision and indecision the player makes, fluid, visceral combat that redefines action . . . and they start their trailer with a menu screen.

It's a customization screen for the local horse-seller; mostly text, as the invisible user scrolls through boring UI menu options detailing which style of horseshoe they want on their new mare. CUT TO BLACK-

TEXT - "In an age long past . . ."

CUT TO - A diablo-esque grid based gear menu. Someone is sorting their loot. They hold their mouse pointer over two daggers that have the same appearance but slightly different stats. They go back and forth trying to decide which one they want for their build . . . CUT TO BLACK

TEXT - "A hero will rise . . . "

CUT TO - A Blacksmith's list of wares. The user scrolls over the sell tab. Sells off a few pieces of armor, all the same type. Obvious vendor trash. Just as they're about to hit the "exit" button we CUT TO BLACK

TEXT - "A journey will commence . . . "

CUT TO - Back to the inventory grid. The mouse pointer picks up one of the daggers. Drags it to the trash icon, but doesn't let go yet. The dagger floats there for a few seconds. The player's pensive. Should they throw the dagger away? They hold there . . . and then put it back in their inventory and mouse over the other dagger to read the stats again. CUT TO BLACK

TEXT - "An Empire Will Crumble . . . ."

CUT TO - A book of in game lore. The font makes it difficult to read as it's in some kind of calligraphy. The shot holds on the page for about twenty seconds, enough for us to read a couple of paragraphs but not enough to finish the entire page. The player was just finishing up that page you see. The book's page flips and we see two full pages of further text, and we hold for ten more seconds while very faint music is heard in the background. The kind of idle, generic, tavern you hear in any RPG inn. After ten seconds, long enough to begin reading this massive wall of text for which we have no frame of reference, and obviously in the middle of probably twelve pages, we again CUT TO BLACK

TEXT - "An Evil Will Awake . . ."

CUT TO - An obvious loading screen. A fairy's wings flap in the lower right corner to let you know the game hasn't crashed. They animate in that stuttering way all loading screen icons animate. A tootip fads in the on the center of the screen. It reads "Did you know that there are 46 variations to your main combat style? Each with 3 different specialization paths? Choose wisely! A Jack of All Trades is a Master of . . . Gnome!" CUT TO BLACK.

TEXT - ". . . and Only You Can Save The World!"

CUT TO - the armor grid again. The mouse goes back and forth between the two daggers quickly. It stops over the one it didn't try to throw away earlier for a couple of seconds . . . but then throws away the one it almost did earlier. CUT TO BLACK.

TEXT - "The Elfwar Chronicles VII - The Obsidian Blades" FADE DOWN
FADE UP - TEXT - Coming Soon.

#549
LivingStrife

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 I saw the demos and i liked the what i saw. Yeah they improved the combat with being able to roll around and guns having more impact. Now that i saw how they improved combat please just show like atleast 60secs of how rps elements have been improved. No i dont want the same multibranching story and deep character development for that has been established. when you guys say improve i want improved, just like the combat has improved, meaning new features showcasing the upgrading sysytem with the guns, if the armor system is gonna be the same limited crap that was me2 or the atleast acceptable system of me1, and the skill progression for the different classes. I didnt get into mass effect  for the combat aspects, to me that was just a bonus, i got in for the rpg aspects and thats what i want to see. Dont take me the wrong way i enjoy the combat improvements but to me what really matters is how the rpg elements have improved. thnx B)

Modifié par LivingStrife, 07 juin 2011 - 07:28 .


#550
MrFob

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MrGone wrote...
"The Elfwar Chronicles VII - The Obsidian Blades"


Wow, that is BEAUTIFUL!!!
I want it, when is it going to be released?
:innocent: