293 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

No way! The evil and delusional paramilitary group is still evil and delusional?

Who would've guessed?

[Apollo Starflare]

I could discuss this all day, be it complaining about the decision or pondering the possible reasonable explanations the game may or may not have. What I am going to say instead is that I will hold out a shiver of no doubt futile hope that the Illusive Man (at least) has avoided indoctrination, and that at some point in the game we get the chance to either help him regain control/save him or destroy him and Cerberus for good.

If in between games (the gap of which is supposed to be months incidentally) TIM, the most Human centric and security concious man in existance has gotten casually indoctrinated despite knowing quite clearly the risks of getting close to Reaper tech then I will devour my hat and then send a letter to BioWare suggesting the writers involved eat theirs too.

(I still LU guys but srsly!)

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No way! The evil and delusional paramilitary group is still evil and delusional?

Who would've guessed?

People who fall either above or below two certain bars of intelligence.

[Mars Nova]

Learn how to use spoiler tags, don't make it seem like this is just your own speculation.

[Sylvianus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No way! The evil and delusional paramilitary group is still evil and delusional?

Who would've guessed?

It's not really the problem. Even anti-cerberus  maybe a little worried by possible retcon or inconsistencies. It's about the storie. Cerberus has a major role in M2, it would be terrible if it doesn't work.

If you read Mass effect evolution, Mass effect retribution, Mass effect ascension, and played all the mass effect, you'll see that, this way taken by bioware is dangerous.

From beginning to the end, TIM want to fight the reapers, Cerberus is the subject of this goal. that's why they are seeking as much as possible to gain knowledge, resources, etc.. TIM has one goal, to save humanity, whatever the cost.

He knows the indoctrination, he's smart, he knows from the beginning what awaits humanity, since 2157. Genocide.

Maybe, he was just indoctrinated by collector's base, but again, after Saren, Benezia, Kenson ? A little too much ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 juin 2011 - 11:50 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Not to mention that Bioware deliberately passed up opportunities in Genesis and Retribution, which dealt heavily in indoctrination, to indoctrinate Cerberus and/or the Illusive Man.

[Thompson family]

You know the worst part of this?

The lecture Shepard's going to get from the VS who chewed him out on Horizon.

"Told you so! Told you so!"

[Someone With Mass]

Then again, no-one has said or confirmed that Cerberus as a whole is working with the Reapers.

[Eshaye]

Thompson family wrote...

You know the worst part of this?

The lecture Shepard's going to get from the VS who chewed him out on Horizon.

"Told you so! Told you so!"

LOL, well we could also tell them that the council/Alliance wouldn't lift a damn finger anyway when they say they are reporting to them, sooooo there! 

[Dave of Canada]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Then again, no-one has said or confirmed that Cerberus as a whole is working with the Reapers.

Except Casey Hudson mentioned it.
And mentioned how TIM was the one responsible for it.
And how Cerberus are trying to protect the "Reaper base".
And how Cerberus is trying to stop Shepard from running away of the Reaper.
And how Shepard says "They are indocrinated!!!11111 lol" when Liara asks why Cerberus is attacking them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2011 - 12:00 .

[Schneidend]

It would be a shame to develop the awesome models for the Cerberus heavy troopers, only to never actually fight them.

Given that the deadliest weapon reapers have is indoctrination, is anybody really surprised we'll see old friends become new enemies?

[upsettingshorts]

Casey also says the player has to learn why Cerberus is working with the Reapers.

That, combined with the indoctrinated line, seems to imply that the change goes beyond a simple pro-wrestling heel turn and sudden, inexplicable betrayal.

That doesn't mean, when that "why" is revealed, that all of us are going to like it. But it does mean that it's premature to criticize what it might be when it may turn out that all the presumptions we'd be basing such arguments on may turn out to be worthless.

[adlocutio]

TIM wasn't indoctrinated during ME2, as he actively opposed the reapers during Retribution, which takes place after ME2. Also it could easily be a mercenary army hired and outfitted by TIM. Furthermore, in Retribution, the Illusive man worked with other groups, so no reason that wouldn't continue.

I recommend reading the novel. I will say this about it though (POTENTIAL MILD RETRIBUTION SPOILER)...




The reapers know everything about Cerberus, should they choose to use them.

[Apollo Starflare]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Then again, no-one has said or confirmed that Cerberus as a whole is working with the Reapers.

Except Casey Hudson mentioned it.
And mentioned how TIM was the one responsible for it.
And how Cerberus are trying to protect the "Reaper base".
And how Cerberus is trying to stop Shepard from running away of the Reaper.
And how Shepard says "They are indocrinated!!!11111 lol" when Liara asks why Cerberus is attacking them.

I missed that bit. 

Still I hold out hope. Casey mentioned that discovering the WHY is still a big part of ME3 so there is still a chance there is more to this than meets the eye. He also said that TIM was still behind Cerberus though, I just can't understand how TIM would have let himself get indoctrinated.

Ugh, this is just a major headache to anyone who liked Cerberus being the 'grey' villain of the trilogy (with the Reapers being EVUL and whatnot). Why some people feel the need to insult the intelligence of those who wish to see the Cerberus plotline resolved in a creative and morally ambiguous fashion I have no idea. It's not like I am saying they were terribly misunderstood and were actually the good guys all along but there were at least somewhat intelligent, resourceful and had a clear set of goals they worked from. Something major has gone crazy in the time between games with them and I think it's understandable anyone with a cursory interest in Cerberus as anything other than a thing to shoot at would be wondering 'wth?'

[ehcaba]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

hmm this thread

inb4 godwin

I do not-see  that happening.

Modifié par ehcaba, 07 juin 2011 - 12:31 .

[KotOREffecT]

candidate88766 wrote...

AlexRmF wrote...

if Cerberus is working with the Reapers what was the damn point of ME2 and Project Lazarus? TIM could've just let Shepard's body be taken by the Collectors from the Shadow Broker.. he wouldn't have spent billions of credits to bring him back, because the Collectors were working for his Masters anyway and could be considered allies.
I sure hope there's more to this... there's got to be, because it makes no sense

How about this for an idea then: in ME2 they brought Shepard back in order to fight the Reapers - to stop them arriving and prepare for if they did. In ME3 we see that Shepard has failed - the Reapers have taken Earth and Shepard has failed to prepare the galaxy and defend humanity's homeworld. If they can buy time for humanity by working with the Reapers then they'll take that chance. If it means killing Shepard then thats fine - in their eyes he's already failed. Besides, they weren't working with the Reapers in ME2.

Maybe they brought Shepard back in ME2 for the Reapers to use him as a tool at some point in ME3 like they did to Saren in ME1?.... TIM's eyes tells the story, he was probably indoctrinated the whole time in ME2, which explains why he was always ahead every step and knew so much about the Collectors who he helped dismantle dispite being possibly indoctrinated..

[Ausstig]

Well this just sucks.

I don't think I can play a game where I have to help xenos like the bule chick and mr Half-face kill humans.

I would rather kill my squad and go it alone then do that.

For all Biowear's talk about choice there is no choice.

They have their story and if you don't agree, to bad.

[Seboist]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Casey also says the player has to learn why Cerberus is working with the Reapers.

That, combined with the indoctrinated line, seems to imply that the change goes beyond a simple pro-wrestling heel turn and sudden, inexplicable betrayal.

That doesn't mean, when that "why" is revealed, that all of us are going to like it. But it does mean that it's premature to criticize what it might be when it may turn out that all the presumptions we'd be basing such arguments on may turn out to be worthless.

Being railroaded into fighting Cerberus regardless of what we did or didn't do is already a kick to the ass, the "why" better be a damn good one and we better be able to realign with TIM/Cerberus*.


* Even though I know that if we do it'll be when Cerberus is 99% destroyed and TIM is a quadripalegic in a coma.

[Bluefuse]

Making Cerberus indoctrinated is the biggest bull**** that BioWare could have ever pulled. How does this bring anything new and interesting into the franchise?

Unless at some point we can take control of Cerberus and use them for our own endeavors.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 07 juin 2011 - 12:52 .

[2kgnsiika]

In Soviet Cerberus, TIM indocrinates Reapers?

Just an idea: when examining the Collector base, maybe TIM found out what makes Reapers tick and decided to reprogram/indoctrinate THEM to take over the galaxy for Cerberus? He thinks Shepard will never agree to this and, thus, decides to eliminate him.

If we have to fight Cerberus, I'd rather do it because of something this, rather than having another case of "oh reaper tech, don't worry, I'm not gonna be indoc-ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL:"

Modifié par 2kgnsiika, 07 juin 2011 - 12:53 .

[Mann42]

Either only a very few of you read the Mass Effect: Evolution comic books, or you read them and you didn't care.

*Spoilers ahoy*

TIM (Jack Harper) was pseudo-indoctrinated back during the First Contact War with the Turians, when Shepard was 3 years old. He was touching someone that touched one of those husk-creating indoctrination pillars, and even though he seemed to still have his own free will, he was clearly changed. He could 'hear' Reaper artifacts and technology, tracking the pillar that indoctrinated him across the galaxy, and his eyes changed in a similar way to Saren.

We know that anyone with prolongued exposure to Reapers leads to indoctrination. TIM is even more sensitive to it because he's already been touched by it. I have no doubt that given sufficient exposure to the right type of powerful Reaper technology (*cough* Collector Base *cough*), he might change a bit. He's probably been in control of himself this whole time, but he's been pseudo-indoctrinated for almost 30 years now, and exposure to something could have easily tipped him over.

We know (from the Comic) TIM started Cerberus in the first place because he knew the Reapers were coming and he wanted Humanity to come out on top. He didn't know specifics, or what they were called or looked like, but he knew they were coming. He also knew the threat they represented and that they might be impossible to defeat, which is why he had to be so ruthless to get immediate results. He was, and I think still is, willing to do anything to make sure Humanity is on top. 

We already know from ME2 that the Reapers have a sick sort of respect for Humanity thanks to Shepard (and maybe even TIM), enough that they were trying to create a new reaper design based on Human DNA. The Harbinger's complete monologue pretty much lays out for you that they are coming to 'uplift' Humanity, and not in the Prothen->Collector way. They want to make humanity itself the new Reapers. 

I could see TIM be swayed by that if he saw no other hope, especially with some help from some whispering Reaper artifact. Immortal perfection and absolute domination over all the galaxy for all time? I don't see how he could refuse. 

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 01:24 .

[Thompson family]

There could the "Dr. Kennison" syndrome, where TIM worked to destroy the Reapers as long as he could but succumbed in the end. This would be particularly convincing if Shep saved the Collector base.

And if Shep blew up the Collector base, then TIM's just p***ed, has given up and gone Vichy with the Reapers.

I'll be glad when March comes, the game's out and we know.

[2kgnsiika]

nexworks wrote...

Either only a very few of you read the Mass Effect: Evolution comic books, or you read them and you didn't care.

*Spoilers ahoy*

TIM (Jack Harper) was pseudo-indoctrinated back during the First Contact War with the Turians, when Shepard was 3 years old. He was touching someone that touched one of those husk-creating indoctrination pillars, and even though he seemed to still have his own free will, he was clearly changed. He could 'hear' Reaper artifacts and technology, tracking the pillar that indoctrinated him across the galaxy, and his eyes changed in a similar way to Saren.

We know that anyone with prolongued exposure to Reapers leads to indoctrination. TIM is even more sensitive to it because he's already been touched by it. I have no doubt that given sufficient exposure to the right type of powerful Reaper technology (*cough* Collector Base *cough*), he might change a bit. He's probably been in control of himself this whole time, but he's been pseudo-indoctrinated for almost 30 years now, and exposure to something could have easily tipped him over.

We know (from the Comic) TIM started Cerberus in the first place because he knew the Reapers were coming and he wanted Humanity to come out on top. He didn't know specifics, or what they were called or looked like, but he knew they were coming. He also knew the threat they represented and that they might be impossible to defeat, which is why he had to be so ruthless to get immediate results. He was, and I think still is, willing to do anything to make sure Humanity is on top. 

We already know from ME2 that the Reapers have a sick sort of respect for Humanity thanks to Shepard (and maybe even TIM), enough that they were trying to create a new reaper design based on Human DNA. The Harbinger's complete monologue pretty much lays out for you that they are coming to 'uplift' Humanity, and not in the Prothen->Collector way. They want to make humanity itself the new Reapers. 

I could see TIM be swayed by that if he saw no other hope, especially with some help from some whispering Reaper artifact. Immortal perfection and absolute domination over all the galaxy for all time? I don't see how he could refuse. 

Okay, I've read Evolution and everything else, but first of all, what do you mean by pseudo-indoctrination? That he only seems to be indoctrinated, but is actually not? We do indeed see him being touched by it and changing him in different ways, but we really don't know the long-term effects. It's not obvious that he's now more susceptible to indoctrination. Therefore, TIM's current state of mind is unknown.

I also have to express my skepticism at the claim that TIM would accept the Reapers' offer like that. As Harbinger  says, the Reapers offer humanity "salvation through destruction." Even if it means being that there will be a 2 km long sapient dreadnaught that will contain humanity's "essence" for ever, it just doesn't sound like the kind of future Cerberus is after. After all, they're pro-human, not pro-human-Reaper.

I could be wrong, though, but at this point, I don't see how something like this is obvious at all. It's all open for debate in my opinion, and we'll just have wait a bit longer to see how it really is. I'm not the one usually crying "omg ruined for ever" when the game is 8 months from release, but this plotline is the single biggest concern I have about ME3.

I just hope BioWare haven't ruined a great character.

[Alexander Kogan]

Just a theory but maybe the Illusive Man isn't behind this. He could be being held hostage by the Reapers or Cerberus, or he just lost control of half of the organization. It's pretty obvious that Cerberus isn't as under control by TIM as he would like us to think. Maybe parts of Cerberus betrayed TIM for their own ends under his nose, or maybe the Reapers indoctrinated parts of the organization. Like I said, just a theory.

P.S. Stop complaining that ME2 was pointless! There were plenty of moments in the game that actually will matter in ME3, like the Geth and Genophage issues.