293 réponses à ce sujet

[C9316]

You mad Renegades?

[Ultai]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Ugh, this is just a major headache to anyone who liked Cerberus being the 'grey' villain of the trilogy (with the Reapers being EVUL and whatnot). Why some people feel the need to insult the intelligence of those who wish to see the Cerberus plotline resolved in a creative and morally ambiguous fashion I have no idea. It's not like I am saying they were terribly misunderstood and were actually the good guys all along but there were at least somewhat intelligent, resourceful and had a clear set of goals they worked from. Something major has gone crazy in the time between games with them and I think it's understandable anyone with a cursory interest in Cerberus as anything other than a thing to shoot at would be wondering 'wth?'

This.  It seems there's no room for grey in Mass Effect, only black and white.  We'll see I suppose.

[Ultai]

C9316 wrote...

You mad Renegades?

Renegades aren't alone in this, just fyi.

[2kgnsiika]

Alexander Kogan wrote...

Just a theory but maybe the Illusive Man isn't behind this. He could be being held hostage by the Reapers or Cerberus, or he just lost control of half of the organization.

No, Hudson expicitly said the Illusive Man was in charge of Cerberus at the time of ME3.

[2kgnsiika]

Ultai wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Ugh, this is just a major headache to anyone who liked Cerberus being the 'grey' villain of the trilogy (with the Reapers being EVUL and whatnot). Why some people feel the need to insult the intelligence of those who wish to see the Cerberus plotline resolved in a creative and morally ambiguous fashion I have no idea. It's not like I am saying they were terribly misunderstood and were actually the good guys all along but there were at least somewhat intelligent, resourceful and had a clear set of goals they worked from. Something major has gone crazy in the time between games with them and I think it's understandable anyone with a cursory interest in Cerberus as anything other than a thing to shoot at would be wondering 'wth?'

This.  It seems there's no room for grey in Mass Effect, only black and white.  We'll see I suppose.

Yes, this. TIM was an awesome character, and a lot of sincere, good people (like Kelly, Jacob, Miranda, Ken, Gabby etc.) worked for him. Also, statements like "TIM represent the best and worst qualities of humanity" really made him seem like a mysterious, morally ambiguous character, and I really bought it when he said stuff like "don't presume to know me or my motives." I don't know, maybe I was duped, but having a purely evil Cerberus just doesn't seem like the best place to take the story.

[Labrev]

Bah! What a cop-out. They surely could have come up with something better than this.

The "indoctrinated" thing is so played-out. Seriously, as I was walking to Object Rho in Arrival I was seriously thinking to myself "what are the chances I go there and find out that she's indoctrinated." Really, I hope this is crap because that's so boring now.

[Mann42]

2kgnsiika wrote...

Okay, I've read Evolution and everything else, but first of all, what do you mean by pseudo-indoctrination? That he only seems to be indoctrinated, but is actually not? We do indeed see him being touched by it and changing him in different ways, but we really don't know the long-term effects. It's not obvious that he's now more susceptible to indoctrination. Therefore, TIM's current state of mind is unknown.

Umm, it was an artifact that turned people to husks. Prolongued exposure by anyone to those things completely indoctrinates you and transforms you. The main ability he got from a secondary exposure? He can 'hear' and 'feel' reaper technology from across the galaxy. (And super cool eyes)

Now, we do know that TIM is able to maintain control of himself for a very long time, but I also believe that he has been 'feeling' and 'listening' to Reaper whispers that whole time. He's just incredibly strong willed.

However, I believe that the Reaper technology inside of him would also make him more succeptible to future indoctrination or Reaper conversion efforts. He's not starting from 0, he's already a percent of the way towards 'husk' (even if only 1%).

Oh, and considering he can 'hear' Reaper technology from across the galaxy, I wonder what's going on in his head the minute a fleet of Reapers is within a few jumps away? Even if you give him credit for being able to withstand a single Reaper, he's a Reaper antennae for goodness sake! The minute there are 12 of those suckers in the same quadrant, his mind is oatmeal. 

I also have to express my skepticism at the claim that TIM would accept the Reapers' offer like that. As Harbinger  says, the Reapers offer humanity "salvation through destruction." Even if it means being that there will be a 2 km long sapient dreadnaught that will contain humanity's "essence" for ever, it just doesn't sound like the kind of future Cerberus is after. After all, they're pro-human, not pro-human-Reaper.

Jack Harper from 30 years ago would never accept their offer, sure. However, any exposure to Reaper technology does make him more succeptible to turning. We don't know what's happened since ME2, but he's definitely 'at-risk' when it comes to Reaper technology. 

I could be wrong, though, but at this point, I don't see how something like this is obvious at all. It's all open for debate in my opinion, and we'll just have wait a bit longer to see how it really is. I'm not the one usually crying "omg ruined for ever" when the game is 8 months from release, but this plotline is the single biggest concern I have about ME3.

I just hope BioWare haven't ruined a great character.

I think he's still a great character, whether he's 'playing both sides' or 'fallen'. However, I really do feel like succumbing to indoctrination is the most tragically fitting end to his character. He fought hard for 30 years, losing more and more of his own 'humanity' to achieve victory, only to succumb and become a monster himself in the end. It is similar to Saren, but it's much more intimate to the story now. 

You were able to talk Saren down to the point where he killed himself. Your prior relationship with TIM is much closer than it was with Saren, and you may be able to help him see sense and change the arc of the story.

True victory against the Reapers may only be possible with TIM, having a single moment of clarity at the right moment, pushed to sanity by your mighty dialogue wheel, sabotaging the Reapers from the inside and saving humanity. In fact, maybe the only way TIM trusts you enough to let you talk him down is if you save the Collector Base for him? That'd be awesome if the only 'good' ending requires you go Renegade in ME2, heh. 

Needless to say, there's a lot of setup for his fall. What happens in ME3 after his fall is totally unknown at this point, but I'm leaning on the side of amazing. 

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 02:20 .

[Manic Sheep]

Ultai wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Ugh, this is just a major headache to anyone who liked Cerberus being the 'grey' villain of the trilogy (with the Reapers being EVUL and whatnot). Why some people feel the need to insult the intelligence of those who wish to see the Cerberus plotline resolved in a creative and morally ambiguous fashion I have no idea. It's not like I am saying they were terribly misunderstood and were actually the good guys all along but there were at least somewhat intelligent, resourceful and had a clear set of goals they worked from. Something major has gone crazy in the time between games with them and I think it's understandable anyone with a cursory interest in Cerberus as anything other than a thing to shoot at would be wondering 'wth?'

This. It seems there's no room for grey in Mass Effect, only black and white. We'll see I suppose.

That too^
I have never thought Cerberus were the good guys but I would much preferred they continued keeping them (or at least you having to work with them) morally ambiguous, their motives understandable and didn’t play the indoctrination card on them. This turn of events is not surprising but it is disappointing and boring but I guess we will have to wait. It may not be as bad as I'm thinking it is.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 07 juin 2011 - 02:18 .

[Son of Illusive Man]

The only explanation that seems to work is that he gets indoctrinated if you handed over the base in Me2....but that makes little sense....a change like that would drastically change the entire game...to an extent that the whole plotline would change based on that...

If it really is conditional, then Bioware is really taking the repercussions thing seriously this time around

As for Paragon's, I'll be really disappointed if they say he got indoctrinated


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, we don't know if it's Cerberus as a whole or just those specific soldiers who are indoctrinated

[Dave of Canada]

Montezuma IV wrote...

Have you seen TIM's ****ing eyes. Of course he is indoctrinated.

So my Renegade Shep is indoctrinatred too? Wonderful.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2011 - 02:18 .

[Son of Illusive Man]

It's also possible that he was working for them the whole time...

Think of it. In Me2, he lost the humanity that made him human.

He also ordered you into the collector ship.

Into the Collector Base

Maybe he thought he could bring you back as a slave for the Reapers....but ended up playing with fire.

[Dave of Canada]

Montezuma IV wrote...

@Dave of Canada Those are obviously red.....I mean come on now....

Eye color means I'm indocrinated or not?

[Withidread]

Every time I think about that line from Harbinger that reapers are our "salvation through destruction" I keep thinking back to Haestrom and what Tali and her team were investigating.

If TIM were somehow convinced that the reapers were actually somehow preserving humanity from a natural cycle of universal extinction (such as what occurred with Haestrom) then I could easily see him joining their cause in the face of a percieved greater threat.

[Dave of Canada]

Montezuma IV wrote...

Everyone who's been indocrinated has had blue eyes....just saying.

So he was indoctrinated during the events of ME2?

Because if so, this situation happens:

Reapers: Collectors, we desire Shepard.
Collectors: We accidently blew him up.
Reapers: Dammit guys, we need his corpse.
Cerberus: Yo dudes, I have it.
Reapers: Oh really? That's good. Revive him.
Cerberus: What?
Collectors: We spent a few days to hunt him down and you want them to revive him?
Cerberus: Yeah, honestly. We can just hand you over his corpse.
Reapers: Bring back Shepard to life and send him against us.
Cerberus: ... like, you want him to attack the Collectors?
Collectors: Oh hell no, we didn't sign up for this.
Reapers: It'll be funny, give him the tech and weaponry he requires to stop our plans and gather the best team in the galaxy for him. I'm sure it won't backfire.
Cerberus: Okay...
*five days later, on Horizon*
Cerberus: Okay, I sent Shepard to (Horizon/Collector Ship/Derelict Reaper). Feel free to kill him now.
Collectors: HE'S OWNING US, HELP
Reapers: PERSERVE SHEPARD'S CORPSE, WE NEED IT.
Cerberus: Why didn't you take it when we had it?
Reapers: WE THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA.
*five days later, on the Collector Base*
Cerberus: ... yep, Shepard's here and killed off every Collector.
Collector: No, I'm still here.
Cerberus: Not for long, that's for sure.
Collector: Because you're the p-
Reapers: Children, calm down. Try to perserve the factory, Cerberus.
Cerberus: I'm trying, gosh. Shepard's a paragon in this playthrough though, I doubt it'll work.
Reapers: *collective facepalm*
*a month later, in the novel Retribution*
Cerberus: We're researching on how to stop you, Reapers!
Reapers: That's hilarious.
Cerberus: Yeah, I know right? Just wanted to blow all this funding to research into the Collector Base when we're actually working for you.
Reapers: Have you seen Shepard yet?
Cerberus: Na, since he did the thing with the base he disappeared.
Reapers: Darn, keep an eye out for him.
Cerberus: I will.
*in Mass Effect 3*
Cerberus: WE'RE WORKING FOR THE REAPERS.
Reapers: You know what? I hardly believe that myself.
Cerberus: I know, right?
Cerberus: They'll never see it coming.
Shepard: I KNEW IT.
Cerberus: How'd you know?!
Shepard: I'm a paragon, anybody I hate is immediately evil and working with the Reapers.
Cerberus: Touche.
Reapers: Damn, he's good.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[frozngecko]

Me thinks that Cerberus will be the new Collectors....but that sounds too obvious.

[Dave of Canada]

Fixed the formatting in my above post, the forum hates copy paste.

[Manic Sheep]

Son of Illusive Man wrote...

It's also possible that he was working for them the whole time...

Think of it. In Me2, he lost the humanity that made him human.

He also ordered you into the collector ship.

Into the Collector Base

Maybe he thought he could bring you back as a slave for the Reapers....but ended up playing with fire.

You were in a coma in one of his facilities for two years. I’m sure there are much easier ways to make Shepard a slave that don't risk your allies bases or a reaper making factory.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 07 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[Mann42]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

Everyone who's been indocrinated has had blue eyes....just saying.

So he was indoctrinated during the events of ME2?

Because if so, this situation happens:

Reapers: Collectors, we desire Shepard.
Collectors: We accidently blew him up.

...snipped awesome...

Reapers: Damn, he's good.

That was epic. I laughed. 

I don't think that's what happened, but it's funny!

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 02:32 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Obviously TIM has been replaced by his evil twin from a parallel universe!...this one has a beard!