293 réponses à ce sujet

[2kgnsiika]

nexworks wrote...

I think he's still a great character, whether he's 'playing both sides' or 'fallen'. However, I really do feel like succumbing to indoctrination is the most tragically fitting end to his character. He fought hard for 30 years, losing more and more of his own 'humanity' to achieve victory, only to succumb and become a monster himself in the end. It is similar to Saren, but it's much more intimate to the story now. 

You were able to talk Saren down to the point where he killed himself. Your prior relationship with TIM is much closer than it was with Saren, and you may be able to help him see sense and change the arc of the story.

True victory against the Reapers may only be possible with TIM, having a single moment of clarity at the right moment, pushed to sanity by your mighty dialogue wheel, sabotaging the Reapers from the inside and saving humanity. In fact, maybe the only way TIM trusts you enough to let you talk him down is if you save the Collector Base for him? That'd be awesome if the only 'good' ending requires you go Renegade in ME2, heh. 

Needless to say, there's a lot of setup for his fall. What happens in ME3 after his fall is totally unknown at this point, but I'm leaning on the side of amazing. 

Okay, with the way you so beautifully describe it, I think I could live with a storyline like this.
Shepard's squadmates' unanimous condemnation of letting TIM have the base is also strong meta-hint that he might screw you over in ME3, so it's not like the possiblity wasn't always there.

But, until it's official, I'll still keep my hopes up and wish that he'll stay true to the traditional pro-human agenda, smoking his cigarettes and sipping his Bourbon, because that's how I like to think of him.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

2kgnsiika wrote...

nexworks wrote...

I think he's still a great character, whether he's 'playing both sides' or 'fallen'. However, I really do feel like succumbing to indoctrination is the most tragically fitting end to his character. He fought hard for 30 years, losing more and more of his own 'humanity' to achieve victory, only to succumb and become a monster himself in the end. It is similar to Saren, but it's much more intimate to the story now. 

You were able to talk Saren down to the point where he killed himself. Your prior relationship with TIM is much closer than it was with Saren, and you may be able to help him see sense and change the arc of the story.

True victory against the Reapers may only be possible with TIM, having a single moment of clarity at the right moment, pushed to sanity by your mighty dialogue wheel, sabotaging the Reapers from the inside and saving humanity. In fact, maybe the only way TIM trusts you enough to let you talk him down is if you save the Collector Base for him? That'd be awesome if the only 'good' ending requires you go Renegade in ME2, heh. 

Needless to say, there's a lot of setup for his fall. What happens in ME3 after his fall is totally unknown at this point, but I'm leaning on the side of amazing. 

Okay, with the way you so beautifully describe it, I think I could live with a storyline like this.
Shepard's squadmates' unanimous condemnation of letting TIM have the base is also strong meta-hint that he might screw you over in ME3, so it's not like the possiblity wasn't always there.

But, until it's official, I'll still keep my hopes up and wish that he'll stay true to the traditional pro-human agenda, smoking his cigarettes and sipping his Bourbon, because that's how I like to think of him.

Don't forget nailing a different super model every week!

[Bill the Illusive man]

I hope they're indoctrinated. TIM is a cruddy guy, but he's not about extincting the human race. He seems the type to rather be at the top of the food chain, rather than just merely in between it just to survive. Indoctrination from the Base I gave him would be awesome. Him just turning on me is kind of predictable to me. Also being that I gave him the base and some of the lost intel, then its best he would've made sure I'm alive pre-indoctrination.

Bioware seems to do a good job keeping the story a secret. Look at how everyone thought Shepard was dead in ME2 until the trailers came out and more info was available. Plus Shepard DID die so it wasn't like they was lying lol.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Then again, no-one has said or confirmed that Cerberus as a whole is working with the Reapers.

Except Casey Hudson mentioned it.
And mentioned how TIM was the one responsible for it.
And how Cerberus are trying to protect the "Reaper base".
And how Cerberus is trying to stop Shepard from running away of the Reaper.
And how Shepard says "They are indocrinated!!!11111 lol" when Liara asks why Cerberus is attacking them.

I missed that bit. 

Still I hold out hope. Casey mentioned that discovering the WHY is still a big part of ME3 so there is still a chance there is more to this than meets the eye. He also said that TIM was still behind Cerberus though, I just can't understand how TIM would have let himself get indoctrinated.

Ugh, this is just a major headache to anyone who liked Cerberus being the 'grey' villain of the trilogy (with the Reapers being EVUL and whatnot). Why some people feel the need to insult the intelligence of those who wish to see the Cerberus plotline resolved in a creative and morally ambiguous fashion I have no idea. It's not like I am saying they were terribly misunderstood and were actually the good guys all along but there were at least somewhat intelligent, resourceful and had a clear set of goals they worked from. Something major has gone crazy in the time between games with them and I think it's understandable anyone with a cursory interest in Cerberus as anything other than a thing to shoot at would be wondering 'wth?'

All Casey said was the TIM is the man in charge of Cerberus. Fo all we know, he could be captured by the Reapers and was promised they would assault Earth last if he obeyed them. Obviously, they didn't keep their promise, but y'know. 

Still. This is the MOST bothersome thing about ME3 so far, and considering I originally despised the idea of being railroaded into working with Cerberus in the months before ME2, seeing HOW BioWare handled it... I have confidence it will be a satisfactory explanation, if not exactly a great or immediately logical one.

[lackofoxygen]

Perhaps, the alliance is not due to indoctrination. Maybe, TIM prefers to be the Reapers right-hand(s) long enough to figure out how to get humanity back on top? I would like to see a double-cross.

Can we get a link and timestamp for when Shep says they are indoctrinated? Naturally, TIM's motives could be for humanities sake but he could have underestimated the powers of indoctrination.

Modifié par lackofoxygen, 07 juin 2011 - 04:52 .

[Elite Midget]

Yes they are.

There was alack of Catsuits. TIM wanted one and the Reapers provided it. Thus Cerberus allied with the Reapers.

[lackofoxygen]

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/77941855161032704

"Huge spoiler drop during this #ME3 demo, not cool. #E3 Reapers working with Cerberus? Seems a bit major."

"Nah, not a spoiler, just simplification of premise for TV. Cerberus & Reapers are both against you in #ME3 - the mystery is why."

Modifié par lackofoxygen, 07 juin 2011 - 05:07 .

[Thompson family]

lackofoxygen wrote...

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/77941855161032704

"Huge spoiler drop during this #ME3 demo, not cool. #E3 Reapers working with Cerberus? Seems a bit major."

"Nah, not a spoiler, just simplification of premise for TV. Cerberus & Reapers are both against you in #ME3 - the mystery is why."

Here's a thought. Let's call it the "bunker" or "Ilos" theory.

TIM thinks he's found a way to hide human survivors -- perhaps in a cyrogenic state -- for hundreds of years. He'll hide a population -- including himself -- somewhere safely away.

Then he and his followers simply wait for the Reaper invasion to blow over.

They emerge unscathed, with records of all their technology, and have 50K years to prepare for the next Reaper "wave." They are the dominant intelligent life in the Milky Way because there are no rivals left. They know there's a  Reaper like Sovereign left behind, but they are careful not to reveal their existance until they've found a way to hunt it down and kill it.

They resorted to this plan after the Reapers went to the Collector base and destroyed it (assuming they do if Shep didn't do it for them), leaving Cerberus with no more likely way to ensure human survival and no better way to ensure human dominance.

Just a thought.

[normandy1]

ya but i was looking forward to being a human first cerberus bad ass wanted for wipping out a batarian systum with advanced tech from all the previoce race's that atempted to go thru the omega 4 relay whay did i bother to keep the ****ing base then

[Crackseed]

While saying they are indoctrinated sheds a bit more light, it doesn't spoil anything to me - I mean, HOW did they get indoctrinated? All we saw in ME2 was TIM trying to save humanity and throwing everything, including us, at it. So how did a major bulk of Cerberus including TIM suddenly get indoctrinated? I want to know the why - how - and everything leading up to it. I guess that revelation has only made me more curious [and a bit worried haha] about Cerb's new role in ME3.

[Shifty Assassin]

*edit* lol nevermind someone beat me to it

Modifié par Shifty Assassin, 07 juin 2011 - 07:21 .

[ChristianSoldier]

Sylvianus wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No way! The evil and delusional paramilitary group is still evil and delusional?

Who would've guessed?

It's not really the problem. Even anti-cerberus  maybe a little worried by possible retcon or inconsistencies. It's about the storie. Cerberus has a major role in M2, it would be terrible if it doesn't work.

If you read Mass effect evolution, Mass effect retribution, Mass effect ascension, and played all the mass effect, you'll see that, this way taken by bioware is dangerous.

From beginning to the end, TIM want to fight the reapers, Cerberus is the subject of this goal. that's why they are seeking as much as possible to gain knowledge, resources, etc.. TIM has one goal, to save humanity, whatever the cost.

He knows the indoctrination, he's smart, he knows from the beginning what awaits humanity, since 2157. Genocide.

Maybe, he was just indoctrinated by collector's base, but again, after Saren, Benezia, Kenson ? A little too much ?

Yeah Tim is not a ******. Cant be. Hes too cunning.

[GodWood]

-sigh-

[WizenSlinky0]

I don't really see how people assume saving the base bites you in the bottom. I mean, at some point you will have to take out or regain control of Cerberus, in which case you'll have it returned to your services along with whatever research that was accomplished.

So one part of the game might be more difficult if they have it, but a second part might be easier once you regain control.

[MadCat221]

I guess Timmay finally figured out what the whole "Ascension through Destruction" deal was with Harby and through his warped Cerberus view decided that's what's best for humanity.

Why aren't you Renegades in lockstep after him?

[HunterX6]

Withidread wrote...

Every time I think about that line from Harbinger that reapers are our "salvation through destruction" I keep thinking back to Haestrom and what Tali and her team were investigating.

If TIM were somehow convinced that the reapers were actually somehow preserving humanity from a natural cycle of universal extinction (such as what occurred with Haestrom) then I could easily see him joining their cause in the face of a percieved greater threat.

true

[Dead Shizno]

ok im gonna toss out an idea,spoiler if u didnt read the comics!


anywho in the comics Tim is hit with some reaper machine that turns people in to husks,for some reson though it didnt fully turn him,but he could hear them to a degree i guess and he knew they were a threat,but i think that there in our system now they did what they did to paul from the books,they slowly waited till tim was a sleep and took over and slowly make him a puppet of theres,so if his underlings dont know whats going on they will follow his orders till he turns them into puppets that we see in the game footage.
till he gets so many under his control and in turn the reaper control!

or

the reapers promised him some thing like sovy did to the geth so who knows till we play the game i for one cant wait to shoot the hell out of kai leng with a shot gun over and over i will waste all my ammo on him even after i take him out in an angry rage! lol

[Rhayth]

Or he's willing to do anything to ensure that humans survival is solidified even if it means the slaughter of millions for the rest to survive through indoctrination/genetic alterations ala Collector's.

[Phaedon]

eldav wrote...

this put me2 completly useless, its like the plot didnt matter,

I am frowning so hard at you right now, mister.

[Pride Demon]

Well, I guess it was also confirmed by seeing those Cerb Shock Troopers pop up from a base that was actually a living Reaper (I'm referring to the E3 thing)...

However, "WITH"!? Not "FOR"? Skilled can you confim me if Casey said that word exactly?
Because that implies a "equitable work relationship", it would be strange...
If this is really the case one wonder what happened, this could be some very interesting twist...
Unless I'm reading to much into this... ;P

[Camthalon]

For those shocked that Cerberus has soldiers... Why? Yes, they have scientists. They also have businessmen, soldiers, and politicians. They are known to use major corporations as fronts to get funds and were stated to be split between political, scientific, and military divisions in ME2.

Anyway, my theory behind Cerberus/TIM:

In ME1, when speaking to the Prothean VI Virgil, he states that he believes Saren isn't Sovereign's first agent since failing to activate the Citadel Mass Relay. What if TIM is one of the earlier indoctrinated agents?

Many people already point out the eyes that TIM has. Yes, they could just be normal implants. They could also be Reaper implants.

"Why would he fight the Reapers?!" He didn't. He opposed the Collectors. Yes, the Collectors are Reaper agents, but what if TIM really is immensely pro-Human? Saren joined Sovereign for a noble goal, what would make TIM any different? TIM could have joined Sovereign to save Humanity. To do that, he would need to replace the Reapers' current organic pets: The Collectors, survivors of the last Reaper visit to the Galaxy.

Think about it. He creates a large shadow organization of individuals who will do anything to see Humanity survive and thrive. Is it that hard to believe that he could convince them that working with the Reapers would secure a bright and glorious future, not to mention survival, for mankind? Yes, the Reapers attack Earth, but so what? Humanity is no longer limited by Earth.

It would also explain why he would be so angry when the Collector station was destroyed. He lost out on their tech, yes. He also lost out on continuing their projects for the Reapers and thereby getting in good with the boss, so to speak.

It would explain Cerberus's interest in things like the Dragons' Teeth, the Rachni, the Creepers, and the Geth. All things that interested Saren. And like Saren, Cerberus was actively weaponizing them, seeking to perfect control over them.

I just finished ME1 again and am working on another ME2 play through and... Looking at it like this... It makes sense. TIM's not involved in anything that actively stops the Reapers. We were played all along.

Modifié par Camthalon, 07 juin 2011 - 12:06 .

[Kiwirifficus]

Camthalon wrote...

It would explain Cerberus's interest in things like the Dragons' Teeth, the Rachni, the Creepers, and the Geth. All things that interested Saren. And like Saren, Cerberus was actively weaponizing them, seeking to perfect control over them.

I just finished ME1 again and am working on another ME2 play through and... Looking at it like this... It makes sense. TIM's not involved in anything that actively stops the Reapers. We were played all along.

I agree, this does make sense. There's also the fact that TIM revived Shepard solely to take control (or destroy, if you're a rebel) the Collector Base. He doesn't particularly care if you live or die. But I like to play the romantic idealist...so I'm hoping that if TIM was indoctrinated prior, that reviving Shepard was his last true act of defiance.

I haven't read enough of ME:Evolution to speculate on whether or not Saren had been "touched" by the device the way TIM was...but I am pretty sure that TIM was indoctrinated there. Perhaps subtly, perhaps just as profoundly as Saren was. Using TIM as a shadow operative makes more sense than putting him on the front lines like Saren was anyway.

There's also another thing that connects Saren and TIM: their idealism. Both were specists, and people with similar motives typically follow similar tactics. That would probably explain why they were both so interested in dominating other species and using them as tools of war.

[MrGone]

Meh.

Why did Zorg work with the big ball of evil in the 5th Element? Apparently for a crap ton of money - even though he would be dead if the ball o' evil succeeded.

Who cares? That movie rocked!

Why does Cerberus work with the Reapers? Maybe it's cause The Reapers have a 2 for 1 coupon to Space-Shakey's. Does it matter?

It's going to be awesome.

[Jonathan Shepard]

nexworks wrote...

2kgnsiika wrote...

Okay, I've read Evolution and everything else, but first of all, what do you mean by pseudo-indoctrination? That he only seems to be indoctrinated, but is actually not? We do indeed see him being touched by it and changing him in different ways, but we really don't know the long-term effects. It's not obvious that he's now more susceptible to indoctrination. Therefore, TIM's current state of mind is unknown.

Umm, it was an artifact that turned people to husks. Prolongued exposure by anyone to those things completely indoctrinates you and transforms you. The main ability he got from a secondary exposure? He can 'hear' and 'feel' reaper technology from across the galaxy. (And super cool eyes)

Now, we do know that TIM is able to maintain control of himself for a very long time, but I also believe that he has been 'feeling' and 'listening' to Reaper whispers that whole time. He's just incredibly strong willed.

However, I believe that the Reaper technology inside of him would also make him more succeptible to future indoctrination or Reaper conversion efforts. He's not starting from 0, he's already a percent of the way towards 'husk' (even if only 1%).

Oh, and considering he can 'hear' Reaper technology from across the galaxy, I wonder what's going on in his head the minute a fleet of Reapers is within a few jumps away? Even if you give him credit for being able to withstand a single Reaper, he's a Reaper antennae for goodness sake! The minute there are 12 of those suckers in the same quadrant, his mind is oatmeal. 

I also have to express my skepticism at the claim that TIM would accept the Reapers' offer like that. As Harbinger  says, the Reapers offer humanity "salvation through destruction." Even if it means being that there will be a 2 km long sapient dreadnaught that will contain humanity's "essence" for ever, it just doesn't sound like the kind of future Cerberus is after. After all, they're pro-human, not pro-human-Reaper.

Jack Harper from 30 years ago would never accept their offer, sure. However, any exposure to Reaper technology does make him more succeptible to turning. We don't know what's happened since ME2, but he's definitely 'at-risk' when it comes to Reaper technology. 

I could be wrong, though, but at this point, I don't see how something like this is obvious at all. It's all open for debate in my opinion, and we'll just have wait a bit longer to see how it really is. I'm not the one usually crying "omg ruined for ever" when the game is 8 months from release, but this plotline is the single biggest concern I have about ME3.

I just hope BioWare haven't ruined a great character.

I think he's still a great character, whether he's 'playing both sides' or 'fallen'. However, I really do feel like succumbing to indoctrination is the most tragically fitting end to his character. He fought hard for 30 years, losing more and more of his own 'humanity' to achieve victory, only to succumb and become a monster himself in the end. It is similar to Saren, but it's much more intimate to the story now. 

You were able to talk Saren down to the point where he killed himself. Your prior relationship with TIM is much closer than it was with Saren, and you may be able to help him see sense and change the arc of the story.

True victory against the Reapers may only be possible with TIM, having a single moment of clarity at the right moment, pushed to sanity by your mighty dialogue wheel, sabotaging the Reapers from the inside and saving humanity. In fact, maybe the only way TIM trusts you enough to let you talk him down is if you save the Collector Base for him? That'd be awesome if the only 'good' ending requires you go Renegade in ME2, heh. 

Needless to say, there's a lot of setup for his fall. What happens in ME3 after his fall is totally unknown at this point, but I'm leaning on the side of amazing. 

I can't tell you how much hope you've given me for a decent reason for Cerberus' odd villany in ME3. 
But now I'll be super disappointed if it isn't at least this awesome! 

[HTTP 404]

yes, I heard shepard say "they're indoctrinated" when Cerberus troopers landed. Im guessig TIM is indoctrinated and feels that humanity can achieve ultimate greatness by ascending to become a reaper (because of indoctrination)

 after reading the last ME novel, I thought tbat would possibly happen. The Reapers believe they are doing humanity a favor...

Modifié par HTTP 404, 07 juin 2011 - 01:21 .