293 réponses à ce sujet

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

nexworks wrote...

Either only a very few of you read the Mass Effect: Evolution comic books, or you read them and you didn't care.

*Spoilers ahoy*

TIM (Jack Harper) was pseudo-indoctrinated back during the First Contact War with the Turians, when Shepard was 3 years old. He was touching someone that touched one of those husk-creating indoctrination pillars, and even though he seemed to still have his own free will, he was clearly changed. He could 'hear' Reaper artifacts and technology, tracking the pillar that indoctrinated him across the galaxy, and his eyes changed in a similar way to Saren.

We know that anyone with prolongued exposure to Reapers leads to indoctrination. TIM is even more sensitive to it because he's already been touched by it. I have no doubt that given sufficient exposure to the right type of powerful Reaper technology (*cough* Collector Base *cough*), he might change a bit. He's probably been in control of himself this whole time, but he's been pseudo-indoctrinated for almost 30 years now, and exposure to something could have easily tipped him over.

We know (from the Comic) TIM started Cerberus in the first place because he knew the Reapers were coming and he wanted Humanity to come out on top. He didn't know specifics, or what they were called or looked like, but he knew they were coming. He also knew the threat they represented and that they might be impossible to defeat, which is why he had to be so ruthless to get immediate results. He was, and I think still is, willing to do anything to make sure Humanity is on top. 

We already know from ME2 that the Reapers have a sick sort of respect for Humanity thanks to Shepard (and maybe even TIM), enough that they were trying to create a new reaper design based on Human DNA. The Harbinger's complete monologue pretty much lays out for you that they are coming to 'uplift' Humanity, and not in the Prothen->Collector way. They want to make humanity itself the new Reapers. 

I could see TIM be swayed by that if he saw no other hope, especially with some help from some whispering Reaper artifact. Immortal perfection and absolute domination over all the galaxy for all time? I don't see how he could refuse. 

Your post is the first post I've read that makes me squeal with anticipation if you are correct.

[lekysma]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I wonder if TIM has become indoctrinated, as well. Or if he was somehow indoctrinated during ME2?

ooooohhh i would love that! It would be the ultimate horror for such a bigot: become the servant of an evil alien civillization!

[Locutus_of_BORG]

lackofoxygen wrote...

Perhaps, the alliance is not due to indoctrination. Maybe, TIM prefers to be the Reapers right-hand(s) long enough to figure out how to get humanity back on top? I would like to see a double-cross.

Ah yes, the famous Saren Strategy... Damn, I hope BW comes up with a better reason than that. The only reason it worked for Saren was b/c we knew that he was in close contact with Sovereign for a long time before and during the events of ME1.

Can we get a link and timestamp for when Shep says they are indoctrinated? Naturally, TIM's motives could be for humanities sake but he could have underestimated the powers of indoctrination.

This was implicated in the latest ME comic series... you'd best get a copy to read yourself, rather than sift through this forum trying to find references to it. Basically, TIM & Saren get a first hand look at how indoctrination works before going on to find ways to stop it. Whether that's supposed to mean they were themselves indoctrinated early on or not remains to be seen (but you'll see that it'd be uber dumb if it did).

[RyuGuitarFreak]

I won't jump to conclusions yet, but the line where Shepard says the soldiers were indocrinated make me think.

I think there is more to it. There should be, it's the Illusive Man.

[88mphSlayer]

i think it's dumb

[Deviana]

Personally I feel that TIM is too intelligent and cunning to simply get indoctrinated. My theory is he's playing both sides - following Reaper's orders (so to speak) to destroy Shepard and at the same time,  using his channels of information and his ability to hear Reapers to figure out what their plans are (besides destroying everything that moves).   Working with Reapers buys him time to study them and figure out their weakness.  Sending out troops to kill Shepard is a calculated risk. If he doesn't - Reapers destroy Cerberus, if he does - they find him temporarily useful.  I can easily see the following scene playing out at some point later in the game:
*Shepard, meeting face to face with TIM and pulling a gun on him*
- Shepard, wait! I know a way to destroy them.
- You really expect me to trust you, after you've tried to kill me?
- Yet you still live. Now listen, we don't have much time...

Of course, the plan might involve a huge chance for Shepard's demise, which would play rather nicely into TIM's plans for human supremacy. The greatest human war hero sacrificing himself for the good of the galaxy certainly shows off humanity in a very favorable light.

Anyway, it's just a theory :innocent:.

[Mann42]

Deviana wrote...

Personally I feel that TIM is too intelligent and cunning to simply get indoctrinated.

..snip..
Anyway, it's just a theory :innocent:.

Intelligence and cunning do not help prevent you from becoming indoctrinated, especially when, like The Illusive Man, you are already around 0.5% converted to a HUSK.

Saren and Benezia were both cunning and intelligent characters; just because we didn't see them until after they were indoctrinated doesn't mean that they were strictly dumb and naive. 

[Deviana]

nexworks wrote...

Deviana wrote...

Personally I feel that TIM is too intelligent and cunning to simply get indoctrinated.

..snip..
Anyway, it's just a theory :innocent:.

Saren and Benezia were both cunning and intelligent characters; just because we didn't see them until after they were indoctrinated doesn't mean that they were strictly dumb and naive. 

That is true, however I find TIM's character to be more complex than that of Saren (and especialy Benezia - we hardly got to know her). To write off TIM as being indoctrinated and therefore working with the Reapers would be too obvious, in my opinion. It could be just wishful thinking, but I feel that there's a huge twist in TIM's story somewhere.

[Skilled Seeker]

The worst part about this is it completely makes the big choice at the end of ME2 one sided, just like what happened with the big choice at the end of ME1. Bioware favours the paragons both times, despite the renegade choices being what any sane person would pick if the situation was real.

[Skilled Seeker]

Someone With Mass wrote...

No way! The evil and delusional paramilitary group is still evil and delusional?

Who would've guessed?

They're a pro human group and spent ME2 helping Shepard and fighting against the Reapers. To have them do a complete U turn is worrying.

But never mind logic, continue with your childish uninformed sarcasm if it makes you sleep better at night.

[Mann42]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

The worst part about this is it completely makes the big choice at the end of ME2 one sided, just like what happened with the big choice at the end of ME1. Bioware favours the paragons both times, despite the renegade choices being what any sane person would pick if the situation was real.

We don't know yet if it's one sided. The game isn't out yet. We don't even know for sure how or in what way, or even if TIM's been indoctrinated, or how the Collector Base ties into the story arc AT ALL. They haven't mentioned it.

You are jumping to conclusions based on your personal excitement for the game, which can easily churn to fear when given enough time to over-think it. 

As I pointed out in an earlier response and am re-quoting below because I apparently type too much, there are ways to make it compelling, and I don't even think my ideas are that great. I imagine that an entire writing team with sufficient time dedicated to this can create more depth than any of us can in a speculative post on the forum.

nexworks wrote...

I think TIM is still a great character, whether he's 'playing both sides' or 'fallen'. However, I really do feel like succumbing to indoctrination is the most tragically fitting end to his character. He fought hard for 30 years, losing more and more of his own 'humanity' to achieve victory, only to succumb and become a monster himself in the end. It is similar to Saren, but it's much more intimate to the story now. 

You were able to talk Saren down to the point where he killed himself. Your prior relationship with TIM is much closer than it was with Saren, and you may be able to help him see sense and change the arc of the story. 

True victory against the Reapers may only be possible with TIM, having a single moment of clarity at the right moment, pushed to sanity by your mighty dialogue wheel, sabotaging the Reapers from the inside and saving humanity. In fact, maybe the only way TIM trusts you enough to let you talk him down is if you save the Collector Base for him? That'd be awesome if the only 'good' ending requires you go Renegade in ME2, heh. 

Needless to say, there's a lot of setup for his fall. What happens in ME3 after his fall is totally unknown at this point, but I'm leaning on the side of amazing.

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 04:39 .

[Someone With Mass]

Skilled Seeker wrote...
They're a pro human group and spent ME2 helping Shepard and fighting against the Reapers. To have them do a complete U turn is worrying.

But never mind logic, continue with your childish uninformed sarcasm if it makes you sleep better at night.

I can say the same about your hypocrisy.

And I find it hilarious that buttplugged idiots like you are jumping the gun before a reasonable explenation has been given.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 07 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[Skilled Seeker]

What hypocrisy?

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 07 juin 2011 - 04:42 .

[flexxdk]

I only blew up the collector base because I like explosions.

Oh, and I never trusted Cerberus anyway. That's my other reason.

Modifié par Whacka, 07 juin 2011 - 04:48 .

[bigSarg]

I don't see how anyone can call this thread a spoiler, its not like Bioware hasn't advertised that Cerberus wants Shep dead, and it was even eluded to in ME2 after the SM, if you continued to play and talked to Garrus.

So the attitude of Cerberus towards Shep is not a secret, the only secret is why the change, and from what I understand we will not know until the game is released, so we can speculate all we want.

[Mann42]

bigSarg wrote...

I don't see how anyone can call this thread a spoiler, its not like Bioware hasn't advertised that Cerberus wants Shep dead, and it was even eluded to in ME2 after the SM, if you continued to play and talked to Garrus.

So the attitude of Cerberus towards Shep is not a secret, the only secret is why the change, and from what I understand we will not know until the game is released, so we can speculate all we want.

I love speculation! I just don't see much in this thread. I see lots of assumption and knee-jerk reactionism.

If this thread had more "Speculate: Knowing that TIM is trying to kill Shepard now, how could the Collector Base tie into the story arc / TIM / etc with different effects based on Renegade/Paragon choices at the end of ME2?" and less "Assumption: Saving the Collector Base for TIM at the end of ME2 is a one-sided choice and Bioware punishes Renegades and wants the story for Renegades to suck" then yes, let's keep talking about it!

It only becomes bothersome when people are more concerned with being upset about an unknown than discussing the unknown and trying to find something amazing in it that we may have previously missed. 

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 05:09 .

[Dave of Canada]

Getting tired of the "LOL IDIOTS" attitude, grow up please. Civil arguments aren't hard to do.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2011 - 05:15 .

[Mann42]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Getting tired of the "LOL IDIOTS" attitude, grow up please. Civil arguments aren't hard to do.

I hope that's not how my last post came across. I'm not calling anyone an idiot! Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

I just want more actual speculation in this here thread about either TIM or the Collector Base, and less renegade player sad-face. :innocent:

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 05:19 .

[Dave of Canada]

nexworks wrote...

I hope that's not how my last post came across. I'm not calling anyone an idiot! Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

Not you, don't worry! Just the few people who jumped in going "lol idiots" and stuff.

[OldMan91]

Maybe Cerberus and The Illusive Man HAVE been indoctrinated and they don't know it or don't realize it. Maybe it's as simple as that?

I mean people had the same reaction to Saren in Mass Effect. "Oh look, he's such a complex character". And then ZAP! Indoctrinated like a kitten. My point is that character complexity does not protect you against mind control.

[Labrev]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Getting tired of the "LOL IDIOTS" attitude, grow up please. Civil arguments aren't hard to do.

Because "wahhh! Bioware favors paragonz!" is much better.

[Dave of Canada]

Honestly, I'm still not a fan (and probably never will) of Cerberus working with the Reapers.

The only theory I've read that I was actually pleased with was that The Illusive Man found out why the Reapers want Shepard's body, so he decided to try and hunt him(her) down to prevent them from getting it. This Cerberus would still be useful in the war effort, the base decision wouldn't be neglected to "you helped the enemy, lol", they still fit the morally grey Cerberus and they'd explore the plot point of why Harbinger wanted Shepard's body.

Maybe they'll have a good plot other than "TIM is indocrinatred", though saying they are both indocrinatred and working with the Reapers doesn't allow much room for it.

[Dave of Canada]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Because "wahhh! Bioware favors paragonz!" is much better.

I don't see an attack there.

So... yes, it is better.

[Mann42]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Honestly, I'm still not a fan (and probably never will) of Cerberus working with the Reapers.

The only theory I've read that I was actually pleased with was that The Illusive Man found out why the Reapers want Shepard's body, so he decided to try and hunt him(her) down to prevent them from getting it. This Cerberus would still be useful in the war effort, the base decision wouldn't be neglected to "you helped the enemy, lol", they still fit the morally grey Cerberus and they'd explore the plot point of why Harbinger wanted Shepard's body.

Maybe they'll have a good plot other than "TIM is indocrinatred", though saying they are both indocrinatred and working with the Reapers doesn't allow much room for it.

That's an interesting theory. If that's the case, it really makes me wonder what the hell the Reapers can do with Shepard's body that makes his continued existance such a threat.

We know that the Reapers can take hundreds of thousands of a race and merge them into a new Reaper, but what could they possibly do with a single human, even one as awesome as Shepard? The minute they start augmenting him he'd lose a lot of what makes him Shepard (mainly looking at the Collectors and even Saren/Benzia's irrational behavior spurts when indoctrinated).

I'm sure he'd still be useful to the Reapers if Shepard were captured and indoctrinated, but since they're already here, I just don't see why they'd even need Shepard anymore, other than just wanting him out of the way.

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 05:47 .