293 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

nexworks wrote...

I'm sure he'd still be useful to the Reapers if Shepard were captured and indoctrinated, but since they're already here, I just don't see why they'd even need Shepard anymore, other than just wanting him out of the way.

They wanted to conserve Shepard during Arrival, where the Reapers were like a week from arriving to the galaxy. It would've been more logical to kill Shepard while (s)he's knocked cold but they simply locked them in a room until the Reapers were going to arrive. Which is odd unless they want Shepard.

[KainrycKarr]

Unless there is a more in-depth explanation beyond lulz indoctrinated, I consider it derp-worthy.

Not a plothole, since indoctrination is...well. Mind-control.

But if it is indeed that simple, then I consider it a waste of a faction - Cerberus - and a waste of a complex and interesting character - T.I.M.

[Mann42]

Dave of Canada wrote...

nexworks wrote...

I'm sure he'd still be useful to the Reapers if Shepard were captured and indoctrinated, but since they're already here, I just don't see why they'd even need Shepard anymore, other than just wanting him out of the way.

They wanted to conserve Shepard during Arrival, where the Reapers were like a week from arriving to the galaxy. It would've been more logical to kill Shepard while (s)he's knocked cold but they simply locked them in a room until the Reapers were going to arrive. Which is odd unless they want Shepard.

Yeah, good point, I had forgotten about that.

Wow, what could they possibly do with Shepard that makes him so important to capture? 

"I am Reaper Shepard. I assimilate lifeforms like you on my way to real civilizations."

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 05:49 .

[Dave of Canada]

nexworks wrote...

Yeah, good point, I had forgotten about that.

Wow, what could they possibly do with Shepard that makes him so important to capture? 

"I am Reaper Shepard. I assimilate lifeforms like you on my way to real civilizations."

Their ability to seduce their entire crew! The Reapers are feeling lonely.

Though honestly, all I'm thinking right now is the Cipher.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 juin 2011 - 05:50 .

[Labrev]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Because "wahhh! Bioware favors paragonz!" is much better.

I don't see an attack there.

So... yes, it is better.

So crying about the game (over a weak argument) is less childish than told-you-so comments?

Interesting standards.

[Il Divo]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Unless there is a more in-depth explanation beyond lulz indoctrinated, I consider it derp-worthy.

Not a plothole, since indoctrination is...well. Mind-control.

But if it is indeed that simple, then I consider it a waste of a faction - Cerberus - and a waste of a complex and interesting character - T.I.M.

This. Very much this. What was fun about Cerberus was that they possessed a willingness to engage in morally grey actions. While they were never really the 'good guys', their opposition to the Reapers added an interesting complication to the plot because they still were a resource that Shepard could choose to make use of. By simply indoctrinating Cerberus, Bioware has now removed an interesting angle to ME3's development. 

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 juin 2011 - 05:54 .

[Dave of Canada]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

So crying about the game (over a weak argument) is less childish than told-you-so comments?

Interesting standards.

Calling people idiots, insulting them and saying they are butthurt = "told-you-so comments"?

[Mann42]

Dave of Canada wrote...

nexworks wrote...

Yeah, good point, I had forgotten about that.

Wow, what could they possibly do with Shepard that makes him so important to capture? 

"I am Reaper Shepard. I assimilate lifeforms like you on my way to real civilizations."

Their ability to seduce their entire crew! The Reapers are feeling lonely.

Though honestly, all I'm thinking right now is the Cipher.

Reapers: "With Shepard, we can now simply recruit each lifeform through dialogue magic and instruct them to wait for destruction."

But yeah, the Cipher! Hot damn! I had forgotten about that! I don't even think they mentioned it in ME2, or at least very limited references.

They've certainly implied that the Protheans had greater plans than just the 'time-capsule' on Ilos, and with the various artifacts we've discovered in both ME1 and ME2, I wouldn't be surprised if the last Prothean scientists, or Protheans from another 'hidden' Prothean colony, created some sort of super-weapon for the destruction of the Reapers. Thanks to the Cipher and the beacon, Shepard may be the only one who knows how to find, use, or understand this super weapon.

I could also see TIM deciding that he wants exclusive control to that super weapon, first to destroy the Reapers, then to establish control over the rest of the galaxy with Cerberus and humanity as defacto savior and ruler. Although some of my Renegade Shepards would be okay with it from a conceptual level, they probably wouldn't leave TIM in charge if they knew about it first (My hardest core Renegades would most likely use it to place themselves as the savior of humanity). And, of course, my Paragon Shepards wouldn't trust TIM with it at all.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

So crying about the game (over a weak argument) is less childish than told-you-so comments?

Interesting standards.

There are significant contextual and technical differences between the following statements:

1. "I don't really have all the answers yet, but I really do not like this aspect of the story."
2. "You're are a childish idiot."

Yes, the first statement can occassionally lead to ranty tirades, unconstructive circular arguments, and threads that spiral into wallowing pity, but can also lead to fantastically constructive and insightful posts. You don't have to agree with a statement for something constructive to come out of it. 

The second statement has no redeeming qualities, and always leads to unconstructive hate spirals that result in people getting banned or threads getting locked. It adds no value to the conversation, and is ultimately self distructive to both the conversation and to the poster.

So please, pretty please, stop with the name calling. Please? 

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 06:34 .

[Mann42]

Double up; condensed into one post.

Modifié par nexworks, 07 juin 2011 - 06:10 .

[Sou1forged]

Sidewinder_617 wrote...

the illusive man has saren's eyes and obsessed with reapers.

Montezuma IV wrote...

Have you seen TIM's ****ing eyes. Of course he is indoctrinated.

2kgnsiika wrote...

nexworks wrote...

Either only a very few of you read the Mass Effect: Evolution comic books, or you read them and you didn't care.

*Spoilers ahoy*

TIM (Jack Harper) was pseudo-indoctrinated back during the First Contact War with the Turians, when Shepard was 3 years old. He was touching someone that touched one of those husk-creating indoctrination pillars, and even though he seemed to still have his own free will, he was clearly changed. He could 'hear' Reaper artifacts and technology, tracking the pillar that indoctrinated him across the galaxy, and his eyes changed in a similar way to Saren.

We know that anyone with prolongued exposure to Reapers leads to indoctrination. TIM is even more sensitive to it because he's already been touched by it. I have no doubt that given sufficient exposure to the right type of powerful Reaper technology (*cough* Collector Base *cough*), he might change a bit. He's probably been in control of himself this whole time, but he's been pseudo-indoctrinated for almost 30 years now, and exposure to something could have easily tipped him over. 

We know (from the Comic) TIM started Cerberus in the first place because he knew the Reapers were coming and he wanted Humanity to come out on top. He didn't know specifics, or what they were called or looked like, but he knew they were coming. He also knew the threat they represented and that they might be impossible to defeat, which is why he had to be so ruthless to get immediate results. He was, and I think still is, willing to do anything to make sure Humanity is on top. 

We already know from ME2 that the Reapers have a sick sort of respect for Humanity thanks to Shepard (and maybe even TIM), enough that they were trying to create a new reaper design based on Human DNA. The Harbinger's complete monologue pretty much lays out for you that they are coming to 'uplift' Humanity, and not in the Prothen->Collector way. They want to make humanity itself the new Reapers. 

I could see TIM be swayed by that if he saw no other hope, especially with some help from some whispering Reaper artifact. Immortal perfection and absolute domination over all the galaxy for all time? I don't see how he could refuse. 

Okay, I've read Evolution and everything else, but first of all, what do you mean by pseudo-indoctrination? That he only seems to be indoctrinated, but is actually not? We do indeed see him being touched by it and changing him in different ways, but we really don't know the long-term effects. It's not obvious that he's now more susceptible to indoctrination. Therefore, TIM's current state of mind is unknown.

If you read the comic you should have figured that out, and if not, nexworks' explanation should do just fine, and if it still doesn't make any sense, try reading it again, and if that doesn't help you can stop bothering. It won't come to you.

Modifié par Sou1forged, 07 juin 2011 - 06:13 .

[Ahglock]

Given how poorly they set up you working with Cerberus in ME2 does anyone actually expect something worthwhile for why they are now with the Reapers?

[Purge the heathens]

Maybe TIM is preparing to brilliantly stab the Reapers in the back. Underbelly. Whatever. They think they've indoctrinated him, but, using the base, he developed a countermeasure!

Or maybe it's not THE Illusive Man working against Shepard, but AN Illusive Man. Internal struggles and stuff, the real/previous one and his (unindoctrinated?) loyalists still have the base and it's gonna be oh so useful!

And... more stuff. Stuff is always important.

[Abram730]

Perhaps the human reaper changed his thinking enough for indoctrination.
Perhaps Ascension of humans into God's was an attractive idea for TIM.

Or perhaps he used too much reaper tech. Like the core and what happened on the derelict ship.

There are 2 many possibilities to know 4 sure. It's all speculation.

[Parah_Salin]

Abram730 wrote...

Perhaps the human reaper changed his thinking enough for indoctrination.
Perhaps Ascension of humans into God's was an attractive idea for TIM.

Or perhaps he used too much reaper tech. Like the core and what happened on the derelict ship.

There are 2 many possibilities to know 4 sure. It's all speculation.

This ^

[Seboist]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

The worst part about this is it completely makes the big choice at the end of ME2 one sided, just like what happened with the big choice at the end of ME1. Bioware favours the paragons both times, despite the renegade choices being what any sane person would pick if the situation was real.

We already got a hint at how one sided the CB decision was going to be when EVERY squadmate who favored keeping it had a complete mind crush and scolded Shepard for being stupid when back on the Normandy.

Once again the end game Renegade decision gets turned into a complete joke with this bull****.

[Dave of Canada]

Abram730 wrote...

Perhaps the human reaper changed his thinking enough for indoctrination.
Perhaps Ascension of humans into God's was an attractive idea for TIM.

Except in the novels, set after the events of ME2, he's still trying to prepare to stop the Reapers.

Or perhaps he used too much reaper tech. Like the core and what happened on the derelict ship.

Except he never participates in the projects himself except for one time, which he then vowed he'd never do so again after being almost killed by Anderson.

[Ice Cold J]

If you saved the Collector Base, The Reapers use it to indoctrinate Cerebus.

OR

Even if you DIDN'T save the Collector Base, Harbinger somehow contacts The Illusive Man and tells him of his plans to make humanity the "chosen species" of this "harvesting." (whether Harbinger is lying or not is questionable) He strikes a deal with The Illusive Man to either get Shepard (the ONLY one/thing Harbinger sees as a threat) on board or elimnate/distract him while The Reapers make short work of the rest of the galaxy.

I'd bet quite a bit on that scenario.

[Tripedius]

I can't imagine that TIM would indoctrinated. He would see it coming, he knows what it is and how it works. Most people don't know untill it is too late but TIM should probably notice when he starts thinking ' those reapers are pretty cool'. He also lost a good friend to them (Ben). He even sets up Cerberus because of the reapers. So for him to be indoctrinated seems silly to me.

The cipher however could have something to do with it, but TIM (cerberus is another question) working for the reapers is very hard to believe for me. Also the timeline seems off. Cerberus got wacked by the turians and anderson and although this could lead to someone else in charge they seem bigger than ever with new improved tech within a couple of months time.

That being said for a game that has supposedly been planned from start to finish it's pretty weak on the story. Like shepard being 26 years old in ME1 max, cause humans made first contact 26 years ago and colony shepard watched his parents get killed by batarians on a colony.

[88mphSlayer]

nexworks wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

The worst part about this is it completely makes the big choice at the end of ME2 one sided, just like what happened with the big choice at the end of ME1. Bioware favours the paragons both times, despite the renegade choices being what any sane person would pick if the situation was real.

We don't know yet if it's one sided. The game isn't out yet. We don't even know for sure how or in what way, or even if TIM's been indoctrinated, or how the Collector Base ties into the story arc AT ALL. They haven't mentioned it.

You are jumping to conclusions based on your personal excitement for the game, which can easily churn to fear when given enough time to over-think it. 

As I pointed out in an earlier response and am re-quoting below because I apparently type too much, there are ways to make it compelling, and I don't even think my ideas are that great. I imagine that an entire writing team with sufficient time dedicated to this can create more depth than any of us can in a speculative post on the forum.

pretty sure people are coming to conclusions based on what's been revealed and said, not because of imagination

[Abram730]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Abram730 wrote...

Perhaps the human reaper changed his thinking enough for indoctrination.
Perhaps Ascension of humans into God's was an attractive idea for TIM.

Except in the novels, set after the events of ME2, he's still trying to prepare to stop the Reapers.

History is filled with people who became what they fought.


“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Dave of Canada wrote...

Or perhaps he used too much reaper tech. Like the core and what happened on the derelict ship.

Except he never participates in the projects himself except for one time, which he then vowed he'd never do so again after being almost killed by Anderson.

What about The research on husks?  Was any of that thech used in his cybernetics?

Tim seems to say what people want to hear.. He seems to spin things to make more sense. I don't think it would take much for him to devours a vow.

All options are better then annihilation.  Perhaps he seeks a deal as Saren Arterius did.

Modifié par Abram730, 07 juin 2011 - 10:49 .

[Hatchetman77]

Dave of Canada wrote...

nexworks wrote...

I'm sure he'd still be useful to the Reapers if Shepard were captured and indoctrinated, but since they're already here, I just don't see why they'd even need Shepard anymore, other than just wanting him out of the way.

They wanted to conserve Shepard during Arrival, where the Reapers were like a week from arriving to the galaxy. It would've been more logical to kill Shepard while (s)he's knocked cold but they simply locked them in a room until the Reapers were going to arrive. Which is odd unless they want Shepard.

They want Shepard to be the new Saren.

[Uszi]

Unanswered question:  Was TIM indoctrinated from the start, or did this happen in the interim?