2247 réponses à ce sujet

[Remus Artega]

Archereon: I am also worshipper of practical things...especialy as far as firefighting goes

Therefore: I think that it does not have to go as far as that (for I can say that anyone who dislike heavy armor should imagine she is in bikini until the DLC provides) ...simple solution is that she could wear whatever catsuit/"light armor"  (you call it) onboard the Normandy but should wear armour true to her already established character outside the ship...and that is what most of us "sexists" propose

Modifié par Remus Artega, 09 juin 2011 - 08:16 .

[KBomb]

@ iakus
Ashley isn’t a marine anymore. Of course she is changed. She has been through a lot. The ideals she had about the Alliance, Cerberus, Shepard…and more have been changed or at least touched upon as not what she perceived. She is now a Spectre. She isn’t the same Ashley. Just like any normal person who experience dramatic change to their views or personal life will change. Doesn’t mean she’ll be a different character, but she may have the different views. Maybe she wants to leave the soldier she was behind. She can still be tough, she can still be that “In your face” woman she always was and still change with personal growth.


@ Iwanttobelieve
You think a change of hairstlye and clothing is too much change. I think it’s superficial to think that what a person wears and how they wear their hair will change the deep character they were and still are. As if suddenly she won’t know how to take cover, or fire a rifle or straight up punch someone. See how different our opinions are? Subjectivity lends way to that.

And if the character is strong, no amount of eye candy can ruin that. If you can’t see the character she is within because you are too focused on what she is wearing, that says more about you than it does her.

Modifié par KBomb, 09 juin 2011 - 08:14 .

[Xeranx]

Remus Artega wrote...

iakus wrote...

KBomb wrote...
I have shot many enemies in both Mass Effects that wore heavy armor and they died just like the ones I killed in light armor. May have taken a little more effort, but they died just the same. With taking cover, shields and good old common sense, I see no reason why a soldier can’t wear something light and comfortable that allowed them more freedom of movement. When I was a female soldier, I always wore light armor because I hated the bulk of heavy.

There is nothing wrong with a bit of fan service in moderation. They don’t have her moonlighting as a dancer in Afterlife.

But light armor is not Ash's "look" Ash is a soldier, with thick armor and big guns.  The quote in my sig is lifted directly from ME1.  Other characters amy favor lighter armors:  Miranda, Liara, Mordin, Thane, Kasumi.  For them, such armor may be totally appropriate.  But Ash is the definition of the tough, reliable marine.  No tech grenades or biotics for her, just guns and armor.

This may be a good look, but it's not a good look for Ashley.  Unless they're rewriting her, which is a distinct possibility.

Or maybe she grew up  Now seriously this thread is getting ridiculous...I understand that some people prefer style to substance but please there are many comic books and other places where you can feast your eyes or other things so why not letting those who want characters coherent to established lore be?

Considering how similar her look is to Miranda I have to love the many comments about how Ashley maybe grew up?  I can offer another strawman if you like: I guess for a woman to grow up or show that she's a mature individual that she has to wear a mini-skirt and a halter top.  That's perfectly fine right?

[Remus Artega]

Xeranx: I guess you missed the sarcasm

Modifié par Remus Artega, 09 juin 2011 - 08:17 .

[Archereon]

Therefore: Hey, it's not like I'm going to refuse to buy the game if Ashely doesn't get a proper space suit. It's just going to annoy me.

[Xeranx]

KBomb wrote...


@ iakus
Ashley isn’t a marine anymore. Of course she is changed. She has been through a lot. The ideals she had about the Alliance, Cerberus, Shepard…and more have been changed or at least touched upon as not what she perceived. She is now a Spectre. She isn’t the same Ashley. Just like any normal person who experience dramatic change to their views or personal life will change. Doesn’t mean she’ll be a different character, but she may have the different views. Maybe she wants to leave the soldier she was behind. She can still be tough, she can still be that “In your face” woman she always was and still change with personal growth.


@ Iwanttobelieve
You think a change of hairstlye and clothing is too much change. I think it’s superficial to think that what a person wears and how they wear their hair will change the deep character they were and still are. As if suddenly she won’t know how to take cover, or fire a rifle or straight up punch someone. See how different our opinions are? Subjectivity lends way to that.

And if the character is strong, no amount of eye candy can ruin that. If you can’t see the character she is within because you are too focused on what she is wearing, that says more about you than it does her.

Ashley says it's in her blood.  Try again.  Someone who thinks that way isn't going to drop preconceived notions.  At least not easily.  ME2 occurred two years after ME.  ME3, from what I've heard, occurs one year later.  Her demeanor in ME2 didn't suggest a change and suddenly it's here and she's dropped practicality in combat?  

Remus Artega wrote...

Xeranx: I guess you missed the sarcasm

I guess I did.  My apologies.

Modifié par Xeranx, 09 juin 2011 - 08:20 .

[theelementslayer]

Xeranx wrote...

KBomb wrote...


@ iakus
Ashley isn’t a marine anymore. Of course she is changed. She has been through a lot. The ideals she had about the Alliance, Cerberus, Shepard…and more have been changed or at least touched upon as not what she perceived. She is now a Spectre. She isn’t the same Ashley. Just like any normal person who experience dramatic change to their views or personal life will change. Doesn’t mean she’ll be a different character, but she may have the different views. Maybe she wants to leave the soldier she was behind. She can still be tough, she can still be that “In your face” woman she always was and still change with personal growth.


@ Iwanttobelieve
You think a change of hairstlye and clothing is too much change. I think it’s superficial to think that what a person wears and how they wear their hair will change the deep character they were and still are. As if suddenly she won’t know how to take cover, or fire a rifle or straight up punch someone. See how different our opinions are? Subjectivity lends way to that.

And if the character is strong, no amount of eye candy can ruin that. If you can’t see the character she is within because you are too focused on what she is wearing, that says more about you than it does her.

Ashley says it's in her blood.  Try again.  Someone who thinks that way isn't going to drop preconceived notions.  At least not easily.  ME2 occurred two years after ME.  ME3, from what I've heard, occurs one year later.  Her demeanor in ME2 didn't suggest a change and suddenly it's here and she's dropped practicality in combat?  

The interaction of the two (shep and ash) on virmire could have sparked this. I know people who have said hte same things, and then changed more dramatically within 3 or 4 months.

[Archereon]

Theele: But that's just plain unnecessary. While it's an excuse for her character to develop into something more attractive for a wide audience, or even for just her outfit change, it doesn't seem to be a natural growth of character, if anything is said to excuse this change, it will seem, to me at least, to be a forced piece of character development.

[KBomb]

Xeranx wrote...


Ashley says it's in her blood.  Try again.  Someone who thinks that way isn't going to drop preconceived notions.  At least not easily.  ME2 occurred two years after ME.  ME3, from what I've heard, occurs one year later.  Her demeanor in ME2 didn't suggest a change and suddenly it's here and she's dropped practicality in combat?  

Lol Calm down. It’s in her blood to be a fighter, a defender. If it were in her blood to always be a Alliance marine, I don’t think she would have agreed to be a Spectre, now would she? I don’t see her being forced into it. She probably agreed to it for various reasons. If it’s in her blood to fight for the good, to defend the weak, to uphold a code that she has, wearing light armor and letting her hair down won’t change that and it’s absurd to believe it will.

And even though the time frame isn’t vast, a lot has happened from the time you saw her on Horizon until the time pf the Reaper attack. Time doesn’t always change a person, the content of the time can.

Modifié par KBomb, 09 juin 2011 - 08:26 .

[Iwantobelieve]

KBomb wrote...


@ Iwanttobelieve[/b]
You think a change of hairstlye and clothing is too much change. I think it’s superficial to think that what a person wears and how they wear their hair will change the deep character they were and still are. As if suddenly she won’t know how to take cover, or fire a rifle or straight up punch someone. See how different our opinions are? Subjectivity lends way to that.

And if the character is strong, no amount of eye candy can ruin that. If you can’t see the character she is within because you are too focused on what she is wearing, that says more about you than it does her.

If you have read my opinion stated previously, I was PRO changing her outfit and I am pro in letting her hair down.
What matters is WHY. On what purpeose did they change her ? Bigger breast for deeper character developpement ? Meh.
I think every non-naive person know the reason they did this is the same they dont want to show Turian females: Bioware thinking that a female must have a perfect body and tight clothes to bee attractive for mainstream audience.
===>> DAO, DA2, ME2 

[Archereon]

KBomb wrote...

Xeranx wrote...


Ashley says it's in her blood.  Try again.  Someone who thinks that way isn't going to drop preconceived notions.  At least not easily.  ME2 occurred two years after ME.  ME3, from what I've heard, occurs one year later.  Her demeanor in ME2 didn't suggest a change and suddenly it's here and she's dropped practicality in combat?  

Lol Calm down. It’s in her blood to be a fighter, a defender. If it were in her blood to always be a Alliance marine, I don’t think she would have agreed to be a Spectre, now would she? I don’t see her being forced into it. She probably agreed to it for various reasons. If it’s in her blood to fight for the good, to defend the weak, to uphold a code that she has, wearing light armor and letting her hair down won’t change that and it’s absurd to believe it will.

And even though the time frame isn’t vast, a lot has happened from the time you saw her on Horizon until the time pf the Reaper attack. Time doesn’t always change a person, the content of the time can.

I'm actually unsure whether or not she would agree to be a Spectre, but I highly doubt she'd decide suddenly to start wearing a jumpsuit/light armor into combat, and I don't see potential justifications for that as a natural development of her character, or anything that would concievably come up if it hadn't been forced it (hypothetically.)

[Faridle]

she kinda looks better then Miranda now.....I guess I have to replay ME2 now

[Iakus]

KBomb wrote...


@ iakus
Ashley isn’t a marine anymore. Of course she is changed. She has been through a lot. The ideals she had about the Alliance, Cerberus, Shepard…and more have been changed or at least touched upon as not what she perceived. She is now a Spectre. She isn’t the same Ashley. Just like any normal person who experience dramatic change to their views or personal life will change. Doesn’t mean she’ll be a different character, but she may have the different views. Maybe she wants to leave the soldier she was behind. She can still be tough, she can still be that “In your face” woman she always was and still change with personal growth.
[b]

This is the Ashley who had the "special type of thickheaded" to join the Alliance when the Williams name had been blacklisted for the last couple of decades?

On Horizon: "I'm an Alliance soldier.  It's in my blood"  Heck she was still wearing Phoenix armor there, and it's no more than a few months before ME3 starts.

She sees Shepard's alive and the Reapers are still coming and decides now's a good time to wear less armor?  Especially if she's an Alliance officer and a Spectre now?

Yeah, I'd say even if she's a Spectre, she doesn't change that much.  She was perfectly happy with herself beforehand:

"Look at who I am, Shepard. Do you ever hear me ask for help? It's not like bad things don't happen to me. If you stay with me long enough, maybe I'll tell you about some of them. But I deal with them myself. I don't need a shoulder to cry on, a knight to rescue me, or a man to make me happy. This is who I am. I like her. And you better like her, too."

Stubborness is one of Ash's defining features.  If this outfit really is her new look, I can only hope and pray that Ash complains about the regs forcing her to wear it.  A lot.

[KBomb]

Iwantobelieve wrote...



If you have read my opinion stated previously, I was PRO changing her outfit and I am pro in letting her hair down.
What matters is WHY. On what purpeose did they change her ? Bigger breast for deeper character developpement ? Meh.

I don’t think her breasts are too big. I would say average to normal. It isn’t like she is all of a sudden Stripparella. I don’t think they are too over sexualized at all.

I think every non-naive person know the reason they did this is the same they dont want to show Turian females: Bioware thinking that a female must have a perfect body and tight clothes to bee attractive for mainstream audience.
===>> DAO, DA2, ME2 

I don’t really think the above statement is productive. When you say things like: Only non-naïve people see things this way, and only the naïve see it this way--it only puts up defensive flags that will not get any point across. It’s also insulting to imply that anyone who prefers form fitting clothing and casual hair styles are mainstream and therefore, can’t hold any water. It’s baseless and pugnacious.

[Nashiktal]

Montezuma IV wrote...

Iwantobelieve wrote...

KBomb wrote...


@ Iwanttobelieve[/b]
You think a change of hairstlye and clothing is too much change. I think it’s superficial to think that what a person wears and how they wear their hair will change the deep character they were and still are. As if suddenly she won’t know how to take cover, or fire a rifle or straight up punch someone. See how different our opinions are? Subjectivity lends way to that.

And if the character is strong, no amount of eye candy can ruin that. If you can’t see the character she is within because you are too focused on what she is wearing, that says more about you than it does her.

If you have read my opinion stated previously, I was PRO changing her outfit and I am pro in letting her hair down.
What matters is WHY. On what purpeose did they change her ? Bigger breast for deeper character developpement ? Meh.
I think every non-naive person know the reason they did this is the same they dont want to show Turian females: Bioware thinking that a female must have a perfect body and tight clothes to bee attractive for mainstream audience.
===>> DAO, DA2, ME2 

They make her easier to look at. Sorry but Ashely is her own character....and she hardly looks different. 

And Bioware has shown plenty of ugly women....*ahem* Tali (Sorry but if you find chicken legs attractive seek help)

Honey -- BioWare as portrayed woman as both beautiful and strong. That's more then you can say for most...well anyone these days.  

I think you need to seek help. I think Ashleys new look makes her look like a tramp. Its not sexy to me at all.

[Iwantobelieve]

"I don’t think her breasts are too big. I would say average to normal"



They still are bigger than in ME1, for sure.
http://img821.images...6/ashleyme1.jpg


There are some things more obvious than others, the over sexualisation of the character and the reasons are one of them.

[KBomb]

iakus wrote...

This is the Ashley who had the "special type of thickheaded" to join the Alliance when the Williams name had been blacklisted for the last couple of decades?

On Horizon: "I'm an Alliance soldier.  It's in my blood"  Heck she was still wearing Phoenix armor there, and it's no more than a few months before ME3 starts.

I mean the Ashley who joined the Alliance and followed the regulatons so much so that she broke the rules by sleeping with her commanding officer, knowing that doing so could further demote her status and that of her militray family if caught.
The same Ashley that was loyal the Alliance so much so that she decided to mutiny and follow Shepard into the unknown to do what she thought was right.

Yeah, I'd say even if she's a Spectre, she doesn't change that much.  She was perfectly happy with herself beforehand:

"Look at who I am, Shepard. Do you ever hear me ask for help? It's not like bad things don't happen to me. If you stay with me long enough, maybe I'll tell you about some of them. But I deal with them myself. I don't need a shoulder to cry on, a knight to rescue me, or a man to make me happy. This is who I am. I like her. And you better like her, too."

Stubborness is one of Ash's defining features.  If this outfit really is her new look, I can only hope and pray that Ash complains about the regs forcing her to wear it.  A lot.

No need to quote me the things she said in the very first Mass Effect, I remember it well. This strong, confidant person we know is a woman of her own, right? She doesn’t need anyone telling her how to dress, or wear her hair. She is her own person and can decide to live how she wishes. Unless someone doesn’t approve of how she now decides to dress or wear her hair! I am perfectly happy with how I look, and who I am too. Doesn’t mean I wear the same style and hair for years. Who is saying she still isn’t the strong, confidant, and stubborn woman she always was?

P.S. Formatting sucks! lol

Modifié par KBomb, 09 juin 2011 - 08:53 .

[Uszi]

KBomb wrote...

Uszi wrote...

Undeniable fact:  In so far as we've seen Ashley Williams in ME3, she is significantly different in appearance from ME1/ME2.

Draw whichever conlcusions you want, but facts are facts.

I don't think she has changed significantly.  I don’t think hair and uniform is significant change. To you, it does. Not to me. If her attitude, demeanor, worldly views are changed, then I will say yes. So thus far, it is subjective. Not fact-- opinion.

Emphasis added.

What I said:  She has changed significantly in appearence.
What you said in reply:  She has not changed significantly.

Given that you go on to say that a change in appearance is not a significant change, would this be a fair paraphrase of your statement(?):

"I don't think she has changed significantly [as a character]."

In which case you failed to respond to what I said.

It might not be a fact that she is significantly different as a character, but it is a fact that she is significantly different in appearance.  If you disagree that she has not changed significantly in appearance, could you define for me what you consider the definition of "significant" to be and what you would consider a "significant change in appearance."

As far as your conclusions that a significant change in appearance is not a significant change in characterization:

Uszi wrote...

Draw whichever conlcusions you want, but facts are facts.

Modifié par Uszi, 09 juin 2011 - 08:54 .

[Nashiktal]

Montezuma IV wrote...

@Nashiktal Sorry if my Tali comment offended you, but....oh well.

But anyway I tend to see tramp as skimpy high-heeled boots, skirts that don't reach vulva, and enough make-up to paint a clown's face over again. Ashely meets none of this requirements un/fortunately....

She looks sexy, beautiful....and I'm sure even more so with her independent personality.

What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with Tali. I was just pointing how different people have different tastes.

However since we are on the topic of tramps... I see her as a tramp now because of a few reasons. We are in the middle of a grand galactic war that will decide the fat of every living thing in the galaxy.... And Ashley decides to help fight by letting her haird down, popping open her rubber suit to show off her cleavage, and wear some makeup!!!!

Yeah go Ashley! Go wear the very things you hated! Yes go and expose your boobs so you can show how independant you are! Why wear armor like the soldier you are? I mean, you said you were marine to the bone, so marines would of course wear a rubber suit and make sexy poses to the reapers during battle of course.

Yay.

In any case my arguments around Ashley and her new style was never based upon my taste in looks, but with her character.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 09 juin 2011 - 08:58 .

[PaulSX]

seeing this Ashley makes me think love triangle between Ash and Miranda would be interesting, eh, will Miranda appear in ME3?

[Obvakhi]

Iwantobelieve wrote...

"I don’t think her breasts are too big. I would say average to normal"



They still are bigger than in ME1, for sure.
http://img821.images...6/ashleyme1.jpg


There are some things more obvious than others, the over sexualisation of the character and the reasons are one of them.

Ashley shared the same body with every other female NPC....

[KBomb]

Uszi wrote...

Emphasis added.

What I said:  She has changed significantly in appearence.
What you said in reply:  She has not changed significantly.

Given that you go on to say that a change in appearance is not a significant change, would this be a fair paraphrase of your statement(?):

"I don't think she has changed significantly [as a character]."

In which case you failed to respond to what I said.

It might not be a fact that she is significantly different as a character, but it is a fact that she is significantly different in appearance.  If you disagree that she has not changed significantly in appearance, could you define for me what you consider the definition of "significant" to be and what you would consider a "significant change in appearance."

As far as your conclusions that a significant change in appearance is not a significant change in characterization:


Draw whichever conlcusions you want, but facts are facts.

I don’t think she has changed significantly in appearance. Her hair is down. I don’t consider that significant. No. And because your opinion is different does not make it fact.

To me, significant change would be going from Zevran in Dragon Age to Zevran in Dragon Age 2.
 
Again: Draw whichever conclusion you want, but opinions are not facts.

Modifié par KBomb, 09 juin 2011 - 09:03 .