391 réponses à ce sujet

[alperez]

Ieldra2

While i get what your saying and agree that it does make sense that Miri could play an important role despite not being a full squadmate, i still think this is in some way Miri fans being badly treated.

My reasoning is that no matter how important an off screen role Miri would play it would still be an offscreen role. Think of it like this, shepard will eventually be the one to bring down TIM and cerberus, no matter what assitance Miri could offer in the end it'll happen because of what you as shepard do, so in the end Miri's role would actually be insignificant.

Its like Wrex, yes he plays an important role (how important we don't know yet) but if he dies then there will probably be another way to accomplish pretty much the same thing, so was he really important in reality?

Or another way other people and what they might be doing in me3 will have an effect but in the end shepard will be the one that finds the way and what other people have done will only make a small difference.

Bioware have a habit of not making Npc's the major catalyst for outcomes (enemy npcs are different of course) so whatever npc role Miri would play would imo diminish her importance.

Where as squadmembers because they are with Shepard constantly they play a much larger role in the outcome of events, which is why imo if Miri is a temp squaddie then an npc her role is being diminished considerably.

One other point, why can't people understand that everyone knows Miranda is back in some capacity and thats not what we've been worried about but rather what capacity she'll return in.

[ilovemesometurian]

I can't see her having a small role, especially if in my file her and Ashley are going to be in a love triangle with me. And despite how hot Ash is now i still am faithful to Miranda =) no wishy washy flipping for me. I moved on and I'm just curious where my Miri is at =D

[Caihn]

alperez wrote...

Ieldra2

While i get what your saying and agree that it does make sense that Miri could play an important role despite not being a full squadmate, i still think this is in some way Miri fans being badly treated.

My reasoning is that no matter how important an off screen role Miri would play it would still be an offscreen role. Think of it like this, shepard will eventually be the one to bring down TIM and cerberus, no matter what assitance Miri could offer in the end it'll happen because of what you as shepard do, so in the end Miri's role would actually be insignificant.

Its like Wrex, yes he plays an important role (how important we don't know yet) but if he dies then there will probably be another way to accomplish pretty much the same thing, so was he really important in reality?

Or another way other people and what they might be doing in me3 will have an effect but in the end shepard will be the one that finds the way and what other people have done will only make a small difference.

Bioware have a habit of not making Npc's the major catalyst for outcomes (enemy npcs are different of course) so whatever npc role Miri would play would imo diminish her importance.

Where as squadmembers because they are with Shepard constantly they play a much larger role in the outcome of events, which is why imo if Miri is a temp squaddie then an npc her role is being diminished considerably.

One other point, why can't people understand that everyone knows Miranda is back in some capacity and thats not what we've been worried about but rather what capacity she'll return in.

100 % agree with you.

[wolf99000]

for me she has to be a fully time squad mate I mean if she is going to have a big role in the cerberus trying to kill you plot and I dont think that will be a few mission thing I think it will run the whole game her on the ship as a squad mate and second in command makes more sense

I have said this before in another post maybe she will not be there at the start of the game during the trail maybe she is off getting her sister some where that tim would not know about and that would be where she joins up maybe even bring her sister with her

Modifié par wolf99000, 17 juin 2011 - 02:18 .

[V-rex]

I'd assume she'll be around somewhere, it may be brief or it may be big... right now I'm not sure. But if Ashley, Kaidan, Jack, Garrus, Liara and Tali have been confirmed then it's a surefire bet that the last three love interests, Miranda, Jacob and Thane, are probably going to be in there too.

At least, I hope so. Not that I'm a fan of Miranda (I'm really, really not) but I am a fan of being fair to all members of the fanbase. I'm happy as hell now that Ashley's back in the game and has been confirmed with ingame footage, but even though MY wish has been fullfilled doesn't mean I'm just going to ignore and belittle everyone else who is still waiting anxiously to see their favorite characters come back.

I don't want to be one of those people who says 'eh, who cares' now that something no longer effects them on a personal level. I had to put up with my favorite LI being gone for almost all of Mass Effect 2, and that's something no one else should have to put up with either.

So while I, on a personal level, couldn't give a toss about Miranda returning... I support it anyway because I still believe in being nice to people.

[ladyvader]

greymav wrote...

Dead, I hope.

She died in one of my games.  I had to pick between her and Jack because my paragon bar wasn't high enough and then she copped an attitude with me and I couldn't get her back loyal even though I got the bar full after.  I was able to in other play through but not that game.  So I took her snooty behind with me to fight the baby reaper and she died.    That is what you get for copping a 'tude with Shep.

[ADLegend21]

She's either hunting TIM down or on my ship as My XO. i don't care what any in gmae charcater says. If she wants to be on my ship she's XO. She's the only person I trust to command the Normandy in Shepard's absences with the VS or Garrus as her XO.

[Arijharn]

I think the illusive man dying during the events of ME3 for any reason to be stupid imo, and while I think Miranda is intelligent and even resourceful, I don't think she's the right person for the job because she isn't ruthless enough.

I like moral ambiguity, and I think either way Miranda progresses throughout the course of ME2 (i.e., which ever way Shephard goes basically) then she still loses that edge. She becomes less a person who would put a control chip into someone's head.

[alperez]

Arijharn wrote...

I think the illusive man dying during the events of ME3 for any reason to be stupid imo, and while I think Miranda is intelligent and even resourceful, I don't think she's the right person for the job because she isn't ruthless enough.

I like moral ambiguity, and I think either way Miranda progresses throughout the course of ME2 (i.e., which ever way Shephard goes basically) then she still loses that edge. She becomes less a person who would put a control chip into someone's head.

Well lets face it if Tim is in charge of cerberus and cerberus is working with the reapers and out to kill Shepard then thats all the reason needed for him to die. How it happens and in what context would be interesting but unless Tim's being deposed and not in control he's a dead man. As for Miranda killing him or not being ruthless enough, well i disagree, Miranda agreed with cerberus's goals but if those goals have changed (which it looks like) then thats enough of a reason, if cerberus have her sister then that's enough of a reason also.

It makes a certain kind of sense for it to be Miranda who takes Tim down eventually and her ruthlessness would always shine through if the circumstances demanded it.

As for her losing her edge and becoming less of a person that would put a control chip in someone's head as you put it well thats character progression, or would you have preferred that no matter what Shepard did she stayed exactly how she was and it had no effect on her whatsoever?

Shepard is supposed to influence those around him/her, Shepards actions, conversations and how Shepard deals with squadmates are supposed to be the basis for that squadmates progression into whatever type of person that squadmate becomes.

A renegede Shepard allows Garrus to kill Sidonis therby further pushing Garrus along a reneged path while a paragon doesn't and achieves the opposite. Miranda has to this point worked only with cerberus and believes completely in everything they do and how they achieve their goals, upon meeting Shepard she finds there is other ways and that maybe her and cerberus's goals are wrong if thats how you wish it to be, if not then so be it.

But for Miranda to not be influenced by Shepard, for her character to not grow or change over the course of the game makes no sense not just in relation to her own arc but in other character arcs, or should she be immune from Shepards influence?

[wolf99000]

well from what we have seen the comic him being partly indoctrinated and the fact he is working for the reapers in mass effect 3 I don't see him living past this game

at the least all Shephard's li have to be full time squad members or it will be the whole ash kaidan liara problem again just meeting them for a small time and being able to cheat on them as its the last game you have to have a pay off and not sure it will work if you only meet up with her for a mission or 2 plus I want to see the interaction with Ashley and Miranda

Modifié par wolf99000, 17 juin 2011 - 07:24 .

[Pups_of_war_76]

BeauRoger wrote...

Just been watching all this e3 coverage, lots of new info on locations, team mates shown, improved combat etc etc...
Where is miranda lawson though? 

Indoctrinated.

[Arijharn]

alperez wrote...
Well lets face it if Tim is in charge of cerberus and cerberus is working with the reapers and out to kill Shepard then thats all the reason needed for him to die. How it happens and in what context would be interesting but unless Tim's being deposed and not in control he's a dead man. As for Miranda killing him or not being ruthless enough, well i disagree, Miranda agreed with cerberus's goals but if those goals have changed (which it looks like) then thats enough of a reason, if cerberus have her sister then that's enough of a reason also.

While that may be true, I also think that because Casey said working out why Cerberus is acting the way it is a mystery to be solved I highly doubt it's that clear cut. Also, I like my rationale of why Cerberus is behaving to it and will stubbornly cling onto it like one who clings to a life raft.

Also, I like the fact that Cerberus is a group of utter bastards in this universe. Taking Cerberus down just makes it another situation where Shephard succeeds 'against the odds.' Personally though; I think Cerberus is much a philosophy as it is an organisation, so even if Cerberus is actually effectively dismantled, then another 'Alpha Protocol' will spring up in it's place because the philosophy that lead to it's creation in the first place hasn't been stifled.

Also, and here's where it's actually contentious; I think the Illusive Man is smarter than Cmdr. Shephard, and likely smarter (in terms of wisdom) than Miranda as well. 

alperez wrote...
It makes a certain kind of sense for it to be Miranda who takes Tim down eventually and her ruthlessness would always shine through if the circumstances demanded it.

As for her losing her edge and becoming less of a person that would put a control chip in someone's head as you put it well thats character progression, or would you have preferred that no matter what Shepard did she stayed exactly how she was and it had no effect on her whatsoever?

I want her to retain her own sense of identity and not become a simple 'yes person' to Shephard. You can tell her not to shoot Niket, and she also has some crazy ideal about the Collector Base that is a noticeable about-turn from how she was at the start of the game.

Not all character 'development' is 'progression' in my opinion. Some thawing of her character was undoubtedly needed in order to get people to emphasize with her, but Miranda probably has the most marked change in all the companions.

alperez wrote...
Shepard is supposed to influence those around him/her, Shepards actions, conversations and how Shepard deals with squadmates are supposed to be the basis for that squadmates progression into whatever type of person that squadmate becomes.

A renegede Shepard allows Garrus to kill Sidonis therby further pushing Garrus along a reneged path while a paragon doesn't and achieves the opposite. Miranda has to this point worked only with cerberus and believes completely in everything they do and how they achieve their goals, upon meeting Shepard she finds there is other ways and that maybe her and cerberus's goals are wrong if thats how you wish it to be, if not then so be it.

The difference is 'within reason' though.
Does Renegade truly 'push' Garrus by allowing him kill Sidonis? Or does Garrus actually revert to how he always was when you first stumble into him performing a very risky maneouvre when he shoots one of Fists thugs who practically held Dr. Chloe Michelle at knifepoint?

I can understand Shephard being able to persuade Miranda into sparing Niket (although not in the manner in which they did it, because realistically that way would just be plain stupid -- it's like getting asked to be shot by Enayla or whatever her name was) and even into talking with her sister. I can even understand her idealised view of TIM being eroded somewhat (although personally I don't see why, he's her superior officer ordering his subordinate into a risky scenario, personally I see that as being no different from a military engagement. Miranda would know beforehand that the entire operation is risky enough and they may not be operating with full intelligence, but whatever... even TIM withholding information isn't really an unforgivable sin for me either, to me it's called 'need to know', and that he trusts in the capability of his team is also not all that different from a superior officer expecting the professionalism and capability of his team to shine through, but I digress).

alperez wrote...
But for Miranda to not be influenced by Shepard, for her character to not grow or change over the course of the game makes no sense not just in relation to her own arc but in other character arcs, or should she be immune from Shepards influence?

Honestly? There's parts that I like and dislike for many of them. Grunt doesn't change his view on life that much although he finds a reason to why he fights, and I like that because it still seems true to Grunt. Paragon persuading Zaeed into his loyalty after you save the workers and give up his one reason of being there actually pisses me off on some level, if only because that's less persuasive Shephard and more Indoctrinating Shephard imo.

I really like Miranda, and I really like how she does thaw, but I also think it was too much and I also think she looses her edge in the process. 

[AngelicMachinery]

Wherever she is... she has to be wearing a thong there would be problems otherwise.

[The Uncanny]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Wherever she is... she has to be wearing a thong there would be problems otherwise.

Yes. The thong is mandatory. 

[Nightdragon8]

yea we are goingt o have alot of squad and not enough squad slots

In support for a full time Miranda squadie spot

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 17 juin 2011 - 11:27 .

[alperez]

Arijharn i'm gonna try reply point by point so i'll use numbers to try and make it clear which part i'm talking about.

1. On the whole cerberus topic i think your putting way too much of your own view of cerberus into your argument and its clouding how you see things.

What i mean by this is yes Casey said working out why cerberus is working with the reapers is important but its only important to the story we're being presented with. We won't be getting a major complex reason imo, it'll be something simple that makes sense and makes us want to take them down, nothing more, nothing less.

The whole philosophy behind cerberus and one head dying and another popping up is not something we will face or have to deal with, it'll be a more typical see bad guy, kill bad guy, remove threat of bad guys forever type of thing.

Also whether Tim is smarter than Shepard is a moot point because if he is behind cerberus and working with the reapers then we already know how it'll end, the same is true with Miranda. If Tim is one of the big bads this time round his smartness or wisdom won't save him, it never does.

2. miranda's character development, could it have been handled better probably, but we get what we get, a lot of character development in me2 is badly handled. Its rushed and at times contradicts itself but thats the nature of the beast and we have to live with the results.

Bioware could have been more subtle with the changes Miranda goes through but for reasons of convieniance perhaps decided to illustrate it with simple choices. As for characters not simply being a yes person to Shepard well again i'm afraid that ship has already sailed, think back to how people perceived Horizon.

A character acting in accordance with their own beliefs over Shepards is just not welcome in the new streamlined rpg world we unfortunately live in.

3. Differences in character progression.

The Garrus thing i brought up was an example, but in terms of Garrus reverting to type as you suggest, well bioware's handling of characters is sketchy at best. In me1 i paragon'ed Garrus and he supposedly changed, i get to me2 and he's reverted back to how he was pre meeting shepard. I paragon him again and he's the Garrus i know, rather than have a character grow and act accordingly bioware instead turn him into a schzio who only acts a particular way when shepard is not around.

Miranda's own growth comes from the same situation, being around Shepard influences her (so we get the not killing Niket and talking with her sister and we also get the collector base turnaround) will this carry on to me3 probably not (see garrus above).

Not being able to see why someone who worked and believed in everything Tim and cerberus aimed for suddenly realising she might be wrong is i'm afraid once again you using your own view of cerberus to support your logic.

It's not a question of Tim sending her into a risky situation as you put it but more saying this is how things need to be done and any other way is wrong and then Shepard coming along, getting the job done and saying there is another way. This is in essence why Miranda would lose faith or re-evaluate Tim and ceberus in general.

Someone thinks that what cerberus stands for and their goals and how they achieve them is whats best for humanity suddenly finding out that maybe its not, maybe somewhere along the way the goals became more important than how they were achieved.

4. Shepard's influence.

Like i said above Biowares handling of characters is at times sketchy and at times incomprehensible. The examples you give in Grunt and Zaeed are enough proof of this. A lot of this is down to some characters not being given enough time and being forced into Shepard's way of thinking rather than gradually changing.

So we get some extreme changes and some that make no sense, its a part of me2 that should be the strongest (character development) ending up in some cases being worse than me1.

Part of the problem imo lies in the fact that certain characters are only completely ironed out if you romance them though. Jack most particularly but Miranda also falls into this category.

If you play out the full and entire Miranda character arc with a romance then more things make sense and everything seems that much more fluid, if you don't you get little gaps of inconsistency.

So in some ways i actually agree with you on this but imo its because a non romanced Miranda is different to a romanced one and this is where the character arc breaks down.