140 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

So in a universe where you can pickup mercs along with Milk and Butter at the local grocery store people are asking where they got an army?

[TheOtherTheoG]

Note - EDI says around 150 operatives, operatives being top ranking troops, like Miranda, Jacob, Kai Leng. The majority of Cerberus workers - technical staff, regular soldiers, that sort of thing - aren't operatives, and so don't count towards the 150 staff.

[Someone With Mass]

God, I really hate when people are raping the definition of retroactive continuity...

It could just be parts of Cerberus that are indoctrinated. Or cells, if you will.

Parts that had many soldiers on standby in case they were needed.

No-one said TIM is indoctrinated, even if I wouldn't be too surprised if he is.

[Vengeful Nature]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Well that line is as credible as squadmates saying Collectors have more then enough pods not just to abduct every colonists in Terminus System's and also to target Earth. EARTH!!!

OK, so we've established that whoever writes those snippets of dialogue has trouble with continuity and/or sense. This doesn't particularly reflect well on Bioware, does it?

Hmh, no?

It just means Bioware can write pretty dumb dialogue lines sometimes. Not bad writing, just dumb.
That's common knowledge.

Writing dumb dialogue is bad writing. There is no other way to put it.

[CroGamer002]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Writing dumb dialogue is bad writing. There is no other way to put it.

So you're saying almost everything what Goku says in Dragon Balls is bad writing?

[Vengeful Nature]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Writing dumb dialogue is bad writing. There is no other way to put it.

So you're saying almost everything what Goku says in Dragon Balls is bad writing?

I don't watch Dragon Ball stuff, so I can't comment on the character, but I would assume that dumb comments there are part of his character. It's OK from a writing perspective, to make a dumb character say dumb things for comic effect, if it is part of his character or plot arc. Garrus' comments on the Collector Ship, Shepard's comments about the First Contact War, and others, are a different sort of dumb: out of character dumb. This is bad writing.

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Assuming twenty to thirty individuals died during the revival, this would leave around 120-130 individuals in Cerberus. Though it's entirely possible EDI was listing the live operatives at the time, which could possibly keep the number still at 150 individuals.

[150 individuals if Lazarus deaths aren't counted]
[120-130 individuals if Lazarus deaths are counted]

Now throughout the story of Mass Effect 2, we see more of Cerberus operatives recieving untimely ends. Including Overlord DLC and the deaths of those on the Derelict Reaper (assuming not every husk was a scientist), one could conclude that another 30-40 individuals were lost during these experiments.

[110-120 individuals if Lazarus deaths aren't counted]
[80-100 individuals if Lazarus deaths are counted]

Cerberus body count, Dr. Kevin Archer, audio and video logs from few Cerberus personal in Overlord: 50

Note that I didn't count coffins and I could have missed few bodies and majority of base was inaccessible.
Also I didn't not count David.



Also Shepard( if you brought at least Tali, Garrus and maybe Jacob and Miranda) on Derelict Reaper says after examining Reaper "altar" that Cerberus personal had almost 100 people.

Modifié par Mesina2, 09 juin 2011 - 01:37 .

[Itkovian]

Moarlulz wrote...

You know it is possible that the Illusive Man maybe just didn't tell anyone he had a secret private army. In fact that's kind of the point of training a secret army: to not make it well known that you have one. Also, just because EDI says that there are 150 Cerberus operatives doesn't mean it's true. If The Illusive Man is smart, which he certainly seems to be, then he wouldn't trust EDI with any of the secret information given how closely EDI is working with Sheppard. Or it is possible he just hired a bunch of mercenaries. He is pretty much the richest man in the galaxy. And then there's always indoctrination. If Cerberus is working with the reapers than there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to use indoctrination to grow their ranks... also in the gameplay demo at E3 (In the link below) you can hear Mordin mention something about them being indoctrinated when you're fighting Cerberus guys...

QFT.

The point is, there are numerous reasons why Cerberus might have lots of soldiers ready to fight you in ME3. Let's not jump on the "plothole" bandwagon (which is far too overused these days), when there are ways to explain away the problems that are just as easy to figure out as it was to come up with a "plothole" in the first place.

Just because something has not been explained fully yet, or we did not get a full data sheet on a given element in the game, does not mean every potential problems found are plotholes. Not everything needs to be spelled out, especially not when ordinary explanations are readily available with a modicum of logic or imagination.

Itkovian

[Sgt Stryker]

Question: Would you consider people like Rupert Gardner and the random crewmembers of the Normandy to be "Cerberus Operatives"? (in the same sense that Miranda and Jacob are Operatives) I certainly would not.

[CroGamer002]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Writing dumb dialogue is bad writing. There is no other way to put it.

So you're saying almost everything what Goku says in Dragon Balls is bad writing?

I don't watch Dragon Ball stuff, so I can't comment on the character, but I would assume that dumb comments there are part of his character. It's OK from a writing perspective, to make a dumb character say dumb things for comic effect, if it is part of his character or plot arc. Garrus' comments on the Collector Ship, Shepard's comments about the First Contact War, and others, are a different sort of dumb: out of character dumb. This is bad writing.

No, Shepard is dumb.

For the rest saying that dumb line? Not out of character. They just saw sh*t load of pods in few seconds and assumed that.

Also Legion doesn't say neither of those lines, but he does have other lines on same mission. Why? Because he's a robot.

[Vengeful Nature]

Arcian wrote...

Way to jump to conclusions, man. I never said they emptied their security staff. That would be insane and retarded of them.

Security staff in R&D cells=//=Soldiers in military cells

Yes it would be insane and retarted of them. So where did they get their soldiers? They aren't an army. They have cells of assassins, researchers and security for the researchers. Again, armed conflict is not their style.

Nothing has been established. You made an assumption based on a subjective observation. From what we've seen in ME3 footage, it's quite obvious they had standing forces right from the start - not on par or even competetative with the galactic forces, of course, but still useful for a designated purpose like, I don't know, ambushing the galaxy's civilizations once the Reapers arrived to cause the proper mayhem? 

They were just waiting for the right time and the right amount of chaos and galactic disruption before going into action.

So they were just keeping these guys off-field? Paying them, paying for their food, paying for their gear, paying for their housing, in case they needed them? This from a supposedly secret organisation. That's worse than having no army and then an army sprouting from nowhere, because it implies Cerberus are incredibly wasteful as well as stupid.

How am I supposed to interpret a post that basically screams, "I made a wild assumption based on a single statement and refuse to analyze said statement and all the other known factors about the subject of the statement before jumping to conclusions I find desirable from my subjective point of view and opinion."

Nothing ever stated the entirety of Cerberus was limited to 150 individuals - quite the contrary. You seem unable to grasp this. I find that frustrating.

I dunno, maybe acknowledge that other people have viewpoints too? That they can back them up if they are asked nicely?

EDI gives you the figures for Cerberus' manpower. This is all we have to go on. If we are told where they got this army during the course of ME3 or before, I will happily eat my hat.

Jesus Christ, does the characters have to be omniscient gods of precise knowledge all the time? Is it impossible that the person claiming there were enough pods for all people on Earth might have overestimated the number or, GOD FORBID, used a hyperbole?

No, it's entirely plausible for characters to do this. Shepard compares the FCW to the Genophage. This is unaccountably dumb. Garrus claiming that the Collectors are going for Earth is also unaccountably dumb, because it doesn't make any sense. This is bad writing, because they are out-of-character remarks. The Garrus and Shepard I know are a damn site more intelligent than that.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 09 juin 2011 - 01:40 .

[Vengeful Nature]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Writing dumb dialogue is bad writing. There is no other way to put it.

So you're saying almost everything what Goku says in Dragon Balls is bad writing?

I don't watch Dragon Ball stuff, so I can't comment on the character, but I would assume that dumb comments there are part of his character. It's OK from a writing perspective, to make a dumb character say dumb things for comic effect, if it is part of his character or plot arc. Garrus' comments on the Collector Ship, Shepard's comments about the First Contact War, and others, are a different sort of dumb: out of character dumb. This is bad writing.

No, Shepard is dumb.

For the rest saying that dumb line? Not out of character. They just saw sh*t load of pods in few seconds and assumed that.

Also Legion doesn't say neither of those lines, but he does have other lines on same mission. Why? Because he's a robot.

It's not the number of pods I have trouble with, it's Garrus' assumption that the Collectors are going for Earth. This doesn't make any sense. Garrus is smarter than that. Therefore, the writers are dumb for having him say a really dumb thing. Was he overwhelmed by the moment? Perhaps. But this is just one example.

Same goes for Shepard. I consider it bad writing if Shepard says dumb things, because he's supposed to be smart enough to qualify for Spectre status, at the very least. The Shepard I know is clever and resourceful. The Shepard the writers showed me in that FCW statement is a blithering idiot.

[CroGamer002]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

It's not the number of pods I have trouble with, it's Garrus' assumption that the Collectors are goingfor Earth. This doesn't make any sense. Garrus is smarter than that. Therefore, the writers are dumb for having him say a really dumb thing. Was he overwhelmed by the moment? Perhaps. But this is just one example.

Everyone can say something dumb in their life, no matter their intelligence.

Samegoes for Shepard. I consider it bad writing if Shepard says dumb things, because he's supposed to be smart enough to qualify for Spectre status, at the very least. The Shepard I know is clever and resourceful.The Shepard the writers showed me in that FCW statement is a blithering idiot.

Shepard become a Spectre do to his/hers combat abilities, leadership skills and finding evidence about Saren attacking Eden Prime.

Modifié par Mesina2, 09 juin 2011 - 01:44 .

[Flashlegend]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Writing dumb dialogue is bad writing. There is no other way to put it.

So you're saying almost everything what Goku says in Dragon Balls is bad writing?

Comparing Dragon Ball to Mass Effect is an extremely bad idea. Two completely different ball parks. Generally in anime A LOT of lines are meant to be dumb for comedic purposes. And referencing anime is a bad idea to begin with since anime, generally speaking, is not recognized for its superb writing and story telling. Come on now. You can do better than that.

[Sgt Stryker]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

No, it's entirely plausible for characters to do this. Shepard compares the FCW to the Genophage. This is unaccountably dumb. Garrus claiming that the Collectors are going for Earth is also unaccountably dumb, because it doesn't make any sense. This is bad writing, because they are out-of-character remarks. The Garrus and Shepard I know are a damn site more intelligent than that.

I just figured that Shepard tended to fall asleep during his intergalactic history classes. As for Garrus, that's a tough one. Maybe he says dumb things when he's awe-struck?

[Icinix]

I always assumed the number EDI mentioned was in error. As if she meant 150 cell leaders or some such. Prior to her saying that, the size of the cells, the lore from the game and the books, seemed to indicate a group operating in the thousands.

I mean, they had a space station that housed the Normandy 2, another one for Lazarus, another one for the books, another one (or big ship) for TIM....thats a lot of space and logistics from only 150 people.

Regardless, if they're indoctrinated, its possible the Reapers are driving more indoctrinated people into their ranks too. But I would like to see some official clarification on this one most definitely.

[Vengeful Nature]

Mesina2 wrote...

Everyone can say something dumb in their life, no matter their intelligence.

I'll give you that one. I'm still not forgiving the "they tried to do the same to us" comment. That was dumb on a whole other scale. The most annoying this is, you don't have a choice if you want to talk to Wrex.

Shepard become a Spectre do to his/hers combat abilities, leadership skills and finding evidence about Saren attacking Eden Prime.

You're saying that you can be thick as two short planks and still master those things? Ask any soldier, leader or investigator. You've got to have the knack, or you're either obscenely lucky or not doing it right.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 09 juin 2011 - 01:58 .

[Vengeful Nature]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

No, it's entirely plausible for characters to do this. Shepard compares the FCW to the Genophage. This is unaccountably dumb. Garrus claiming that the Collectors are going for Earth is also unaccountably dumb, because it doesn't make any sense. This is bad writing, because they are out-of-character remarks. The Garrus and Shepard I know are a damn site more intelligent than that.

I just figured that Shepard tended to fall asleep during his intergalactic history classes. As for Garrus, that's a tough one. Maybe he says dumb things when he's awe-struck?

Might be. If I was Shepard in that instance, I'd keep my mouth shut. If you're talking to a victim of an artificial infertility plague about said plague, especially one that can fit your entire upper torso in his mouth, you should probably do it with a bit of tact.

[SkittlesKat96]

I kind of assumed their soldiers were just hired muscle or elite Alliance soldiers they were training in secret or in the background or something

Trust me though, Bioware wouldn't leave such a big glaring plothole like that. When doing the storyline for ME 3 I'm 100% sure they know lore as big as that. I know that when the game comes out they will have some good ideas

[CroGamer002]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

I'll give you that one. I'm still not forgiving the "they tried to do the same to us" comment. That was dumb on a whole other scale. The most annoying this is, you don't have a choice if you want to talk to Wrex.

But that's Shepard, not Garrus and every other squadmate.

I still claim Shepard is dumb.

You're saying that you can be thick as two short planks and still master those things? Ask any soldier, leader or investigator. You've got to have the knack, or you're either obscenely lucky or not doing it right.

I said Shepard is dumb, not complete idiot.

[Dean_the_Young]

First, why don't we chill the tone, and the personal attacks? That would be great, and would probably make some arguments a bit more effective.


I'll jump in by saying that the general message of the Pyramid picture is likely correct, though of course the exact numbers are up for dispute. I agree that the 'Operatives = the elite agents' is the only one that really makes sense in the wider context of Cerberus. While everyone in Cerberus might be considered an operative by the Alliance, within Cerberus the Operatives (note the capital for distinction) are the people really in charge/of note.

One comparison that might be applicable would be the Council Spectres, which is another organization of similar size and intent: a personal, direct problem-solving group for problems across the galaxy. Cerberus Operatives can be comparable to Spectres: not quite in quality but in inent and style. Some work alone, some work in groups, and some lead entire organizations of underlings. Both groups are assigned specific problems and left to deal with it. Decrease the quality, increase the numbers.

Yes it would be insane and retarted of them. So where did they get their soldiers? They aren't an army. They have cells of assassins, researchers and security for the researchers. Again, armed conflict is not their style.

Besides that Cerberus recruited directly from the Alliance for a time during it's 'legit' phase, there are also the prospects of a grown army. We know that Cerberus has long been interested in genetic engineering, as well as cloning technology (such as Grunt's tank). For the same reason that Cerberus wanted the Rachni, and studied husks and thorian creepers, an army of clone soldiers as a personal force wouldn't be unreasonable at all, or rejected by anything prior.

So they were just keeping these guys off-field? Paying them, paying for their food, paying for their gear, paying for their housing, in case they needed them? This from a supposedly secret organisation. That's worse than having no army and then an army sprouting from nowhere, because it implies Cerberus are incredibly wasteful as well as stupid.

I'd say yes and no. It's not as unreasonable as you'd think (the maintanence cost is trivial given Cerberus's resources), while the survivalist-contingency planning is par for course for Cerberus. Overlord wasn't about going out to enslave the Geth, but a defense if/when they attacked again. In the ME2 codex for Cerberus, it's specifically noted that Cerberus has started stockpiling resources.

Moreover, besides resources/capabilities meant to be kept in the rear for surprise-advantage, reserve forces wouldn't need to be simply sitting in bunkers out in unexplored system Y waiting for the Reaper arrival/war with the Batarians/etc. There are a lot of covert uses for small human forces in the meantime that fit within Cerberus's range of interests. Small groups can provide a core of capable resistance in colony conflicts with other systems, in either passive-wars or outright colonial conflicts. Cerberus commando teams could be passed off as small human mercenary groups which take pro-Human contracts and other manipulations. They can do separate, subtle operations elsewhere: fighting Geth in areas the Alliance is reluctant to tread, sabatoging Batarian efforts, etc.

They can be used, while remaining hidden, and only unveiled in full when the time comes. In the case of what we've seen, I'd expect such assets as the Atlus mechs to be ideal 'surprise in the pockets' to be saved for the really important issues: if Cerberus needs to intervene, strategic surprise by ability would be a major asset.

EDI gives you the figures for Cerberus' manpower. This is all we have to go on. If we are told where they got this army during the course of ME3 or before, I will happily eat my hat.

I think EDI's evaluation comes with three distinct flaws: her own knowledge of Cerberus, the accuracy of that knowledge allowed, and categorization. Consider four simply points that would allow EDI, while being completely honest, to be undermined as far as popular interpretation is concerned.


1) EDI doesn't know as much about Cerberus as many presume. Even unrestricted, her information is limited. Cerberus can have more than she could be aware of. A sensible precaution in the case EDI herself failed and was hacked by the Collectors.

2) EDI's information is outright wrong by intent. (Or, justified RETCON.) Going by the aspects of above, EDI was deliberatly given information that, while with a grain of truth, intentionally undersappreciated Cerberus's strength. Since the only validity we have for the information's accuracy is that EDI is telling us, it's believability not only depends on 'do we trust that EDI is honest with us', but 'was EDI told the truth.'

3) classification of Cerberus branches. We know how Cerberus is split into military, political, and scientific divisions. We know these divisions are kept sepearte in organization and style. We also know that EDI is of the scientific division. EDI's information could be of the parts of the Science Division (limited knowledge), or the other branches could organize themselves differently: an Operative in the science division need not be considered the same in the military division.

And, most importantly,

4) What does 'Operative' entail? This is the big crux. EDI tells us that there are 150 operatives... but nothing about how Cerberus uses the term. Is an Operative anyone who works with/for Cerberus? Every soldier, every scientist? This gets pretty unreasonable on the face of it: the number of Cerberus personnel that can be killed, accounted for, or found dead easily accounts for far too much of the number.

The square is turned into a circle, however, if we look at 'Operative' as the 'elite' Cerberus agents. Project Leaders (Miranda), Chief Scientists (Wilson), or exceptionally important soldiers (Jacob, Kai Leng). When support staff, other scientists, and 'rank and file' soldiers (guards, commando teams, etc.) aren't considered Operatives, not only does the number make sense, it gives far greater room for the narrative to use Cerberus.

No, it's entirely plausible for characters to do this. Shepard compares the FCW to the Genophage. This is unaccountably dumb. Garrus claiming that the Collectors are going for Earth is also unaccountably dumb, because it doesn't make any sense. This is bad writing, because they are out-of-character remarks. The Garrus and Shepard I know are a damn site more intelligent than that.

I disagree about the Earth aspect. It really is the only target to justify the size of the Collector Cruiser. Given other aspects about the Collectors (they work for the Reapers, the Geth work for the Reapers, the Geth can work with the Collectors), an attack on Earth isn't impossible to consider.

[Savber100]

I don't get it. Why couldn't Cerberus hire mercenaries group and give them supplies?
"Join us, get a million credit, and the latest equipment" would be a pretty good call.
Even if it isn't that, I seriously doubt EDI knew the full might of Cerberus. TIM won't be that stupid to have all of Cerberus' info within a restricted part of EDI. It's just too risky.

Modifié par Savber100, 09 juin 2011 - 02:49 .

[dklancer02]

In one of the demos Shepard mentions that the Cerberus personnel they're fighting are indoctrinated, so it's possible that the Reapers partial indoctrinate a bunch of humans and then ship them off to Cerberus to equip and hunt down Shepard.

[mulder1199]

they most likely tourtured kaiden and got him to reveal the location of the starforge..