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Where did Cerberus get an army? *spoilers*

Débuté par Dave of Canada , juin 07 2011 01:51

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#101
Timberley
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 03:27

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Vengeful Nature wrote...

So they were just keeping these guys off-field? Paying them, paying for their food, paying for their gear, paying for their housing, in case they needed them? This from a supposedly secret organisation. That's worse than having no army and then an army sprouting from nowhere, because it implies Cerberus are incredibly wasteful as well as stupid.


Vengeful, it's not really that wasteful or stupid if you think long term.  To draw a comparison with real life, terrorist organisations have (in the past anyway) cells that they pay for (logistics related to the organisation anyway), and hide all around the place, ready to fulfill instructions as given to them by their leaders.  Some are there to facilitate the movement of personnel within the organisation, others to train members, and others are 'combat cells' (if you will), that do live in secret and carry out attacks, etc.  Paying them's not too difficult, you just have them listed (under false names) within your legitimate businesses, and you're good to go.

In many ways, I would speculate that TIM has been planning things for a long time (since the FCW and the events on Palaven).  A standing army is not quite what we've seen in the E3 stuff so far, more like teams of special forces types that can be used when a lone assassin is not enough (e.g. Delta teams or platoons).  Why would TIM have them?  Speculation again; but they could be there to 'shut down' projects that've gone bad, bases that've been overrun, etc.  If TIM didn't have Shep in ME2, he could well have sent one of these SF teams to see what'd happened at the Project Overlord facility and deal with any problems, bringing the place to heel, for example.

They could also be standing by for other reasons, such as to 'secure' important research, alien technology, or to rise up from the ashes of the Reaper invasion and bring about a human-centric galaxy.  They may have been a contingency TIM put in place in case it became apparent that the Alliance could not cope on their own, and needed heavily armed, bleeding-edge tech equipped troops, that TIM could bring in to secure what he considers important for the future of humanity in the galaxy.  Speculation I know, but in keeping with the idea of Cerberus.

Are they under the control of TIM, the Reapers, or an indoctrinated TIM?  No one knows at this point with any degree of certainty.  Shepard remarks that they've been indoctrinated, but who indoctrinated them?  I'm sure when we play we'll either find out or work it out.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts.

Tim

#102
Kabanya101
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 03:27

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Cerberus offered three things:
1) Lodging / food / alcohol (basic living)
2) Weapons and armor
3) Credits
Oh, and they probably threw in some nude pics of Miranda, or maybe videos of her.

That's how they got an army. Jeez everybody on this forum thinks there's conspiracy theories and everything, be logical.

#103
Dean_the_Young
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 03:33

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Timberley wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

So they were just keeping these guys off-field? Paying them, paying for their food, paying for their gear, paying for their housing, in case they needed them? This from a supposedly secret organisation. That's worse than having no army and then an army sprouting from nowhere, because it implies Cerberus are incredibly wasteful as well as stupid.


Vengeful, it's not really that wasteful or stupid if you think long term.  To draw a comparison with real life, terrorist organisations have (in the past anyway) cells that they pay for (logistics related to the organisation anyway), and hide all around the place, ready to fulfill instructions as given to them by their leaders.  Some are there to facilitate the movement of personnel within the organisation, others to train members, and others are 'combat cells' (if you will), that do live in secret and carry out attacks, etc.  Paying them's not too difficult, you just have them listed (under false names) within your legitimate businesses, and you're good to go.

In many ways, I would speculate that TIM has been planning things for a long time (since the FCW and the events on Palaven).  A standing army is not quite what we've seen in the E3 stuff so far, more like teams of special forces types that can be used when a lone assassin is not enough (e.g. Delta teams or platoons).  Why would TIM have them?  Speculation again; but they could be there to 'shut down' projects that've gone bad, bases that've been overrun, etc.  If TIM didn't have Shep in ME2, he could well have sent one of these SF teams to see what'd happened at the Project Overlord facility and deal with any problems, bringing the place to heel, for example.

They could also be standing by for other reasons, such as to 'secure' important research, alien technology, or to rise up from the ashes of the Reaper invasion and bring about a human-centric galaxy.  They may have been a contingency TIM put in place in case it became apparent that the Alliance could not cope on their own, and needed heavily armed, bleeding-edge tech equipped troops, that TIM could bring in to secure what he considers important for the future of humanity in the galaxy.  Speculation I know, but in keeping with the idea of Cerberus.

Are they under the control of TIM, the Reapers, or an indoctrinated TIM?  No one knows at this point with any degree of certainty.  Shepard remarks that they've been indoctrinated, but who indoctrinated them?  I'm sure when we play we'll either find out or work it out.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts.

Tim

I sensible, calm, well-thought out explanation without a hint of derision or hostility?

:wub:

#104
KainrycKarr
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 04:55

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EDI is obviously wrong,, or has been purposefully misinformed(very likely.

Well over 150 Cerberus personnel have been lost over the course of ME1 and ME2, and the books. WAY more.

#105
KainrycKarr
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 04:57

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Timberley wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

So they were just keeping these guys off-field? Paying them, paying for their food, paying for their gear, paying for their housing, in case they needed them? This from a supposedly secret organisation. That's worse than having no army and then an army sprouting from nowhere, because it implies Cerberus are incredibly wasteful as well as stupid.


Vengeful, it's not really that wasteful or stupid if you think long term.  To draw a comparison with real life, terrorist organisations have (in the past anyway) cells that they pay for (logistics related to the organisation anyway), and hide all around the place, ready to fulfill instructions as given to them by their leaders.  Some are there to facilitate the movement of personnel within the organisation, others to train members, and others are 'combat cells' (if you will), that do live in secret and carry out attacks, etc.  Paying them's not too difficult, you just have them listed (under false names) within your legitimate businesses, and you're good to go.

In many ways, I would speculate that TIM has been planning things for a long time (since the FCW and the events on Palaven).  A standing army is not quite what we've seen in the E3 stuff so far, more like teams of special forces types that can be used when a lone assassin is not enough (e.g. Delta teams or platoons).  Why would TIM have them?  Speculation again; but they could be there to 'shut down' projects that've gone bad, bases that've been overrun, etc.  If TIM didn't have Shep in ME2, he could well have sent one of these SF teams to see what'd happened at the Project Overlord facility and deal with any problems, bringing the place to heel, for example.

They could also be standing by for other reasons, such as to 'secure' important research, alien technology, or to rise up from the ashes of the Reaper invasion and bring about a human-centric galaxy.  They may have been a contingency TIM put in place in case it became apparent that the Alliance could not cope on their own, and needed heavily armed, bleeding-edge tech equipped troops, that TIM could bring in to secure what he considers important for the future of humanity in the galaxy.  Speculation I know, but in keeping with the idea of Cerberus.

Are they under the control of TIM, the Reapers, or an indoctrinated TIM?  No one knows at this point with any degree of certainty.  Shepard remarks that they've been indoctrinated, but who indoctrinated them?  I'm sure when we play we'll either find out or work it out.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts.

Tim


We've got a possible winner, folks.

#106
mulder1199
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:00

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KainrycKarr wrote...

EDI is obviously wrong,, or has been purposefully misinformed(very likely.

Well over 150 Cerberus personnel have been lost over the course of ME1 and ME2, and the books. WAY more.


seemed like in 'retribution' they lost most everybody, but it really does imply (in all the books) that TIM basically just recruits mercs anyways

#107
GreenDragon37
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:06

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Sjaddix wrote...

EDI was lied to. TIM went on recruitment drive. He bought a lot of mercs.


This seems to be the most likely answer.

#108
CroGamer002
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:33

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mulder1199 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

EDI is obviously wrong,, or has been purposefully misinformed(very likely.

Well over 150 Cerberus personnel have been lost over the course of ME1 and ME2, and the books. WAY more.


seemed like in 'retribution' they lost most everybody, but it really does imply (in all the books) that TIM basically just recruits mercs anyways


He doesn't need Mercs, just fanatics that have combat skills and train them more( no lack of money for small army).

I mean Shadow Broker has an army, why would'nt Cerberus have one too?

#109
CroGamer002
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:35

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Also everyone seems to ignore this.


Mesina2 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Assuming twenty to thirty individuals died during the revival, this would leave around 120-130 individuals in Cerberus. Though it's entirely possible EDI was listing the live operatives at the time, which could possibly keep the number still at 150 individuals.

[150 individuals if Lazarus deaths aren't counted]
[120-130 individuals if Lazarus deaths are counted]

Now throughout the story of Mass Effect 2, we see more of Cerberus operatives recieving untimely ends. Including Overlord DLC and the deaths of those on the Derelict Reaper (assuming not every husk was a scientist), one could conclude that another 30-40 individuals were lost during these experiments.

[110-120 individuals if Lazarus deaths aren't counted]
[80-100 individuals if Lazarus deaths are counted]




Cerberus body count, Dr. Kevin Archer, audio and video logs from few Cerberus personal in Overlord: 50

Note that I didn't count coffins and I could have missed few bodies and majority of base was inaccessible.
Also I didn't not count David.



Also Shepard( if you brought at least Tali, Garrus and maybe Jacob and Miranda) on Derelict Reaper says after examining Reaper "altar" that Cerberus personal had almost 100 people.



Yeah, almost 150 Cerberus personal is dead in just 2 ME2 missions.

#110
goofyomnivore
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:36

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We know now that he had 6-12months after ME2 to do his recruiting.. I don't know if that is enough to create an army.. but it does give him a time window.

#111
UBER GEEKZILLA
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:36

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dude.......they have HAD an army. do you remeber all those cerberus bases in ME1

#112
The BS Police
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:42

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I don't see how it's inconcievable that cerberus has a private army, nobody knew the Shadow Broker had a private army and yet nobody complained about it.

#113
88mphSlayer
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:48

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i'm going to guess they explain them as being recruited out of the alliance military

an army of jacobs basically

/they all want the prize...

#114
JeffZero
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:50

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The Illusive Man no doubt has Amazon.com in his pocket. He can get whatever he wants from the galaxy at a significant discount.

#115
GreenDragon37
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 05:53

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88mphSlayer wrote...

i'm going to guess they explain them as being recruited out of the alliance military

an army of jacobs basically

/they all want the prize...


Imagine if they're all Jacob clones underneath those helmets. :lol:

#116
naledgeborn
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 06:16

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Cerberus has 3 branches: military, political, scientific. I'm assuming the 150 operatives EDI refers to are only one of these branches.

#117
mulder1199
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 06:24

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he seemingly also has some access to aria t'loak's folks...

#118
k177sh0t
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 06:30

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Cloned Shepards

#119
Roenik
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 06:36

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I highly doubt TIM would spill all the inner workings of Cerberus even to EDI.

Very likely there are MANY operations going on that are not known.

#120
Xerxes52
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 06:42

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Tank-grown humans? Clones?

#121
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 07:05

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People are way over thinking this. Wow.

The pyramid diagram is likely correct (in spirit, not exact numbers). TIM has knowledge of all cells (military, political/espionage, research/scientific), front organizations and businesses, and the more specially secret operations. It seemed pretty clear to me that the approx 150 personnel were core individuals such as Miranda, Jacob, guy from Overlord, guy from Jack's Loyalty, etc. For the most part, only these individuals can have ANY direct corrospondence with TIM, and only a select few of these people can/have spoken with TIM in person (like Miranda!).

Other than that, there are likely up to many hundreds working in SOME form for these cells (people like Wilson), with the core personnel being their direct superiors. In the military arm of the organization, I'd assume hundreds to thousands of people overall (spread out over the galaxy and human space) act as muscle when needed.

I guess some of you are experiencing some dissonance when it comes to the info of Cerberus between ME1 and ME2 and how to match that with ME3. ME1 is the secret research stations while Cerberus is still a rather very secret group kept under wraps, and we've killed dozens there. ME2 vaults us 2 years later, and has us deal with the upper echelons of Cerberus and leaders of various cells and research projects.

In ME3 we'll see the strongarm of the organization, the secretly trained soldiers, etc. This doesn't break lore at all, but just reveals the more 'middle' part of Cerberus (again, as ME1 showed the minor small stuff, and ME2 showed the upper elite stuff).

Cerberus has plenty of people - just not nearly as many as other galactic and even human organizations have. This allows TIM to have more direct control over what happens, allowing him to make those 'calculated sacrifices' of cells without a big moral fuss within himself. He's a bit of a narcissist.

However, even with military groups, perhaps whole cells, core people, etc all being indoctrinated (as I assume many of them have postings on parts of Earth, and prominent alien planets - not just abandoned ones like in ME1) - TIM MAY NOT be indoctrinated himself, but allowing these losses in order to achieve a larger goal. If a cell is compromised, because they don't know details of other cells, that leaves those other cells 'pure'. Over the past while and into ME2, Cerberus has taken quite a large hit, but there still may be enough 'safe' in the group, that Shepard may still have some help from them. Just IMO.

#122
Sylvianus
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 07:23

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The Turians, the Alliance, the Council's intelligence services and GSI must really be rotten, must suck, if they are not able to trace a group of terrorists with several thousand members.
 
<_<

Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 juin 2011 - 07:26 .

#123
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 07:23

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No, I'm sorry, it feels like a retcon. It is painfully obvious when you read Retribution that Cerberus was being set-up to be of little relevance in ME3 by having the turians gut it. TIM was left with a great deal of his best and brightest dead or in captivity. Those who hadn't been hit by the raid he couldn't risk contacting for the time being and others he knew would immediately sever their own connections with Cerberus and pretend they'd never even been part of it. Furthermore, in Retribution TIM is still speculating that Cerberus and Shepard will cooperate again in the future.

This is a retcon. It's not the first time Cerberus has been subject to one, even within the same game! In ME1 Cerberus had no symbols to identify them by. Even the name Cerberus was only mentioned a few times. They were anonymous.

Then in ME2 we see that they have uniforms and they plaster their logo everywhere and are in fact quite well known. We're told that operatives of one cell cannot recognize operatives in another. Yet when we board the Reaper derelict, Overlord, and pick up the Hammerhead we again see the Cerberus uniforms and logos everywhere.

So I don't find it hard to believe that Bioware would later in development of ME3 decide Cerberus will be the badguys and that as the badguys they obviously can't be a small, wounded organization. They'll need an army, so they'll get one. It can be worked into the lore, yes, but it is obviously a huge shift in Bioware's presentation and interpretation of the group.

The army was pulled out of their ass, plain and simple.

#124
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 07:59

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Sylvianus wrote...

The Turians, the Alliance, the Council's intelligence services and GSI must really be rotten, must suck, if they are not able to trace a group of terrorists with several thousand members.
 
<_<


The vast majority will technically not be 'members', but associates of some sort (only the 150 or so, actually have *real* info to extract, and even then, its only on their own cells - and grunts like the ones we see in ME3, won't know squat). The Alliance and Council probably have spies of some sort within their own ranks, keeping Cerberus info scarce.

Cerberus has by ME2, and certainly ME3, become semi-public. It's not a matter of spies, intelligence, etc anymore, but of public opinion. It seems many humans are quite sympathetic to their overall aim, and I think this only helps Cerberus. Like any big criminal organization, they law will crack down on some of them, even have big stings and busts, but the organization itself surives and in some area even thrives.

I'd wager that by ME3, Cerberus (just not any info ON it) is quite widely known, and there's only so much that public officials, law enforcement, and the miliary can do about that. Especially since the Alliance has Cerberus within its own ranks.

#125
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 08:07

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Saphra Deden wrote...

No, I'm sorry, it feels like a retcon. It is painfully obvious when you read Retribution that Cerberus was being set-up to be of little relevance in ME3 by having the turians gut it. TIM was left with a great deal of his best and brightest dead or in captivity. Those who hadn't been hit by the raid he couldn't risk contacting for the time being and others he knew would immediately sever their own connections with Cerberus and pretend they'd never even been part of it. Furthermore, in Retribution TIM is still speculating that Cerberus and Shepard will cooperate again in the future.

This is a retcon. It's not the first time Cerberus has been subject to one, even within the same game! In ME1 Cerberus had no symbols to identify them by. Even the name Cerberus was only mentioned a few times. They were anonymous.

Then in ME2 we see that they have uniforms and they plaster their logo everywhere and are in fact quite well known. We're told that operatives of one cell cannot recognize operatives in another. Yet when we board the Reaper derelict, Overlord, and pick up the Hammerhead we again see the Cerberus uniforms and logos everywhere.

So I don't find it hard to believe that Bioware would later in development of ME3 decide Cerberus will be the badguys and that as the badguys they obviously can't be a small, wounded organization. They'll need an army, so they'll get one. It can be worked into the lore, yes, but it is obviously a huge shift in Bioware's presentation and interpretation of the group.

The army was pulled out of their ass, plain and simple.


-TIM can still work with Shepard. We're assuming that since a number of Cerberus grunts are indoctrinated by being near a Reaper, that the organization/TIM is completely compromized and indoctrinated. I actually think that TIM will (even if Cerberus is destroyed) be a still major player, and possibly not even be an indoctrinated puppet.

-Cells being compromized has only a certain extent of an effect on the MILITARY arm of Cerberus.

-2 years can be a very long time when it comes to the rise of organizations. Hell, even half a year can be a big deal sometimes. It's a retcon, but not such a hugely damaging one as some of this forum think it is, imo. Cerberus went from a clandestine super-secret group (pre-ME1), to a gradually expanding one (ME1, drawing the attention of Alliance), to a more known yet mysterious criminal group (ME2), to now a nearly public organization that the government/miliary tries its darnest to dismantle (ME2 to ME3). These things happen, even in our own history in the real world.

-The army was already mentioned as a military arm of Cerberus in ME2, we just didn't know their strength. And its not as huge as you think - just enough to conduct specific operations. It's not like they're storming a stronghold as a total swarm. They just have great tech, training, funds, etc. (even after the hit TIM took post-ME2)
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