252 réponses à ce sujet

[TheSeventhJedi]

I gotta say, I'm not going to make the comparison nine months before the game comes out, but that demo looked exactly like Gears with a ME skin. The addition of the "press Y to look" mechanic and up-close one-hit melee kills and running around a destroyed Earth - well, I REALLY hope the RPG mechanics have been beefed up just as much. I liked ME2 better than 1, but I really hope the last one isn't as simplistic as the demo made it look.

[Fhaileas]

Vanni127 wrote...

Mass Effect is a god damn RPG, and I really wish people would fight more to keep it that way. Keep the CoD and Gears crap in their games and out of my RPG thanks.

I'm afraid that is a (Bio)war the RPG fanbase and the ME Franchise has already indubitably lost.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 07 juin 2011 - 11:12 .

[Wildfire Darkstar]

Razorburn wrote...
Where is BioWare promising to add more RPG elements? All I've seen is gun customization, and the lack of story mechanics is what RPG fans are talking about.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I bemoaned the lack of "RPG elements" in ME2, I wasn't solely talking about story and dialogue. In fact, the most depressing thing to me about the downfall (IMO, obviously) of the Mass Effect series is that so many people seem to have normalized the idea that an RPG is defined solely by its "story mechanics." As an older-than-I-care-to-admit RPG fanboy, part of what I've found appealing about the genre from the get-go is that it allows me to role-play a character that lies outside of my normal range of talents and skills. Story-telling and characterization is a huge part of this, don't get me wrong, but it also means that I have an outside chance of playing a character whose speed and reflexes are greater than my own. I'm not good a shooters, and I don't like Gears of War. I don't mean to criticize anyone who does like such games, but I'm no longer able to role-play ME2 (and most likely ME3) as an action-oriented character, because I don't have the twitch reflexes necessary to play that kind of games. An RPG, to me, is a game where my character's skills are of more importance than my skill as a player. And, by that metric, the ME series has left the RPG genre behind long ago, and is at best trying to redefine the term so that it still applies.

Standard disclaimers apply, of course. The Mass Effect series was always a hybrid action game, and always required more "action gaming skills" than a traditional CRPG. But the first game appealed to me a lot on the basis of its RPG content, and I've had to resign myself to the fact that the full package of what I consider "RPG elements" are gone and they're never coming back. I know I sound melodramatic, but I had high hopes for ME3 after my disappointment in ME2, and the reveals we've been seeing this week have been a collosal letdown. I'm glad it's found an audience in the Gears of War crowd, but it's lost me in the process. Yeah, I know, boo-hoo. I'm sure BioWare will do just fine without me.

[clopin]

The combat looked like a speedier version of Gears, which is good. Gears doesn't need to be fast, but a fast Mass Effect lets it stand on it's own when you compare it. I just hope that the powers I choose and how I evolve them carry more weight than in ME2, but the gameplay itself is looking fantastic.

[Father_Jerusalem]

tonnactus wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...
 Squad banter?  These are all things that I, as a diehard ME fan, can't wait to see, but I'm not so nieve that I think I'll see it at the e3 reveal.

Mass Effect  E3 footage. Starts with what?

Started with an introduction to the Mass Effect universe - which we don't need this time. Then moved on to a Galaxy Map - which was completely different than it ended up being in the game (one of the examples of "let's not show things too much because they may change and then people will whine because they changed"), then moved on to a conversation  that was never in the actual game and showing.... the dialogue wheel.

Ah yes, I assume that's what you're referring to? The fact that Mass Effect showed off the dialogue wheel as opposed to shooting stuff? Well, there's a reason for that. The dialogue wheel, at the time, was a brand new concept in video games. MOST marketing for Mass Effect revolved around the dialogue wheel. That was what was unique about the game, THAT is why they showed it off - as opposed to the subpar gunplay in the game.

In Mass Effect 2, they revamped the combat system and showed that off, and showed off more of the story - which people then complained about because they said they were spoiled.

In Mass Effect 3, they've added new touches to the combat system and are showing that off, because it is the easiest thing to make a demo of and have it work - the combat mechanics code are already there in the engine. They're also not showing off a ton of the story/RPG elements because people whined about being spoiled in ME2 and.... now people are whining about NOT being spoiled in ME3.

Make up your minds. At this point, I'm frelling done with this community, I've lurked here for years, but the absolute negativity and complaining regarding TWENTY MINUTES of gameplay footage, as though somehow that was the entire game on display right there, is just so infuriating and depressing that I can't stand it.

[marshalleck]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

They're also not showing off a ton of the story/RPG elements because people whined about being spoiled in ME2 and.... now people are whining about NOT being spoiled in ME3.

Make up your minds. At this point, I'm frelling done with this community, I've lurked here for years, but the absolute negativity and complaining regarding TWENTY MINUTES of gameplay footage, as though somehow that was the entire game on display right there, is just so infuriating and depressing that I can't stand it.

How would showing off weapon customization or the class powers menu spoil the story? Story and mechanics are not the same thing, don't conflate them.

If those features aren't ready for public viewing, how difficult is it to say so? Why should getting this information be more difficult than pulling someone's teeth out?

A simple "these features are not in their final form so we're not going to be showing them at E3" would eliminate most of the complaints. People would at least feel they've been acknowledged.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 juin 2011 - 05:28 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

marshalleck wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

They're also not showing off a ton of the story/RPG elements because people whined about being spoiled in ME2 and.... now people are whining about NOT being spoiled in ME3.

Make up your minds. At this point, I'm frelling done with this community, I've lurked here for years, but the absolute negativity and complaining regarding TWENTY MINUTES of gameplay footage, as though somehow that was the entire game on display right there, is just so infuriating and depressing that I can't stand it.

How would showing off weapon customization or the class powers menu spoil the story? Story and mechanics are not the same thing, don't conflate them.

If those features aren't ready for public viewing, how difficult is it to say so? Why should getting this information be more difficult than pulling someone's teeth out?

A simple "these features are not in their final form so we're not going to be showing them at E3" would eliminate most of the complaints. People would at least feel they've been acknowledged.

Because they'll likely change 10-15 times between now and final release, and if it's not EXACTLY the way it's shown in the demo, people will complain that it's "dumbed down" for "console players" or "not RPG enough" or any one of the myriad of complaints people come up with. 

And they HAVE said that weapon customization is going to be in and people still complain. I know I was expecting it to be like the loadouts in ME2 where you changed at specific stations and yet in one of the demos, from what it sounded like, Casey was saying you can just throw your gun down on a nearby bench and customize it. Information I know that I did not have before today, and yet there are still complaints that it's just "pew pew pew" and nothing else.

Besides, you know as well as I do that a "these elements are not in their final forms so we're not going to be showing them at E3" will just lead to thousands of "OMG NO RPG IN ME3!" threads or "OMG NO SKILLZ IN ME3!" - just look at what threads have been created in the two days of E3 if you doubt that.

[The Interloper]

SalsaDMA wrote...

As long as they are not showing evidence of rpg stuff, but only talking difusely and vaguel bout it in a rather generic term while continuing to ram down pictures or trailers showcasing combat, I will continue to be extremely critical of them in this regard.

Heck, if anything the trailers they showed have turned down expectations int his regard. Most glaring case: Trailer showing Shepard and Anderson running around with shepard jumping to Normandy in the end.

2 things stand out to me where IF they actually had bothered doing anything on the roleplaying part, they should have showed it:

It might have a fully fleshed out RPG element, it might not. I don't think E3 demos are a good indication of it. As has already been argued, simply because story elements are underplayed in predetermined presentations doesn't mean they aren't there.

Besides, would you like it of they spoiled large chunks of the game?

I'm not saying the scene with the boy blew me away or anything, but I hardly think you can judge the whole damn game based on that. They were obviously focusing on the combat, the main "changed" thing, and story was underplayed, both because it's not breaking news (I highly doubt it will be any worse than the previous two games, at least) and because of spoilers. Or wasn't there a backlash agaist the numerous plot spoilers in ME2 demos?

I have concerns too, but it's way to early to call. At any rate, I think you're making the assumption that if they're changing combat, something must have been docked from RPing. This is, quite frankly, a mistake. Again, maybe, maybe not, this isn't enough indication to draw a conclusion.

Modifié par The Interloper, 08 juin 2011 - 05:40 .

[The Interloper]

Double post.

Modifié par The Interloper, 08 juin 2011 - 05:39 .

[KainrycKarr]

SalsaDMA wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

RPG - Skill trees, character customization(appearance, gender, weapon), player choice,

That's what I play RPG's for. That's what Mass Effect 3 has. Thus, to me, ME 1/2/3 all qualify as RPG's.

Funny, cause you will find thos things in plenty of games that do not claim to be rpgs but admit they are other things.

If skill trees is what makes for 'improved the rpg' in ME3, it's gonna be just another shooter.

CoD has none of those. GoW has none of those. Halo doesn't have any those(Multi has character custom in reach, sort of).

Then maybe some of those games that do have those, are a little more RPG than they admit.

Seriously,  the skill trees were one of the BIGGEST complaints for me2 when everyone realized there were SMALLER skill trees.

Now all of a sudden they don't mean anything?

Sure, ME1 had inventory; it was clunky. It was a novel concept at best, an inconvenience at worst.

ME2 did it right; but it lacked variety. Something they have already rectified with all the different weapons and weapon mods.

Skill trees were a complaint; now they've made them more complex, thus allowing more complex builds.

Player chooses dialogue.
Player chooses how events play out.
Player chooses who and what kind of person their character is.
Player can customize appearance, weapons, and skill builds.
Player can choose to skip this mission and do this mission, and vice versa; they are not linear this-one-comes-first(for the most part.)
Player can interact and develop deeper relationships with squadmates, and learn more from them about the game universe.

All of these elements are completely ABSENT from nearly every mainstream shooter.

Yet Mass Effect has these elements AND the epic combat that is the bread and butter of those games.

Mass Effect is a shooter. Mass Effect is also an RPG. No, it isn't Oblivion, or Fallout, or DA:O. But it never claimed to be.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 08 juin 2011 - 05:53 .

[SNascimento]

Not matter what was shown or not shown.... whiners gonna whine, it's what they do.
.
Anyway, I also wanted to see more, but what can we do about it? It has already been stated that they will be a more interesting weapon customization and skill progression. We will see it eventually.

[ChristianSoldier]

KainrycKarr wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

RPG - Skill trees, character customization(appearance, gender, weapon), player choice,

That's what I play RPG's for. That's what Mass Effect 3 has. Thus, to me, ME 1/2/3 all qualify as RPG's.

Funny, cause you will find thos things in plenty of games that do not claim to be rpgs but admit they are other things.

If skill trees is what makes for 'improved the rpg' in ME3, it's gonna be just another shooter.

CoD has none of those. GoW has none of those. Halo doesn't have any those(Multi has character custom in reach, sort of).

Then maybe some of those games that do have those, are a little more RPG than they admit.

Seriously,  the skill trees were one of the BIGGEST complaints for me2 when everyone realized there were SMALLER skill trees.

Now all of a sudden they don't mean anything?

Sure, ME1 had inventory; it was clunky. It was a novel concept at best, an inconvenience at worst.

ME2 did it right; but it lacked variety. Something they have already rectified with all the different weapons and weapon mods.

Skill trees were a complaint; now they've made them more complex, thus allowing more complex builds.

Player chooses dialogue.
Player chooses how events play out.
Player chooses who and what kind of person their character is.
Player can customize appearance, weapons, and skill builds.
Player can choose to skip this mission and do this mission, and vice versa; they are not linear this-one-comes-first(for the most part.)
Player can interact and develop deeper relationships with squadmates, and learn more from them about the game universe.

All of these elements are completely ABSENT from nearly every mainstream shooter.

Yet Mass Effect has these elements AND the epic combat that is the bread and butter of those games.

Mass Effect is a shooter. Mass Effect is also an RPG. No, it isn't Oblivion, or Fallout, or DA:O. But it never claimed to be.

Not to take anything away from ME, but their "epic" combat is not "epic" compared to mainstream shooters. ME 2 enemy AIs werent that impressive compared to halo AIs. ME2 combat is good though.

[KainrycKarr]

ChristianSoldier wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

RPG - Skill trees, character customization(appearance, gender, weapon), player choice,

That's what I play RPG's for. That's what Mass Effect 3 has. Thus, to me, ME 1/2/3 all qualify as RPG's.

Funny, cause you will find thos things in plenty of games that do not claim to be rpgs but admit they are other things.

If skill trees is what makes for 'improved the rpg' in ME3, it's gonna be just another shooter.

CoD has none of those. GoW has none of those. Halo doesn't have any those(Multi has character custom in reach, sort of).

Then maybe some of those games that do have those, are a little more RPG than they admit.

Seriously,  the skill trees were one of the BIGGEST complaints for me2 when everyone realized there were SMALLER skill trees.

Now all of a sudden they don't mean anything?

Sure, ME1 had inventory; it was clunky. It was a novel concept at best, an inconvenience at worst.

ME2 did it right; but it lacked variety. Something they have already rectified with all the different weapons and weapon mods.

Skill trees were a complaint; now they've made them more complex, thus allowing more complex builds.

Player chooses dialogue.
Player chooses how events play out.
Player chooses who and what kind of person their character is.
Player can customize appearance, weapons, and skill builds.
Player can choose to skip this mission and do this mission, and vice versa; they are not linear this-one-comes-first(for the most part.)
Player can interact and develop deeper relationships with squadmates, and learn more from them about the game universe.

All of these elements are completely ABSENT from nearly every mainstream shooter.

Yet Mass Effect has these elements AND the epic combat that is the bread and butter of those games.

Mass Effect is a shooter. Mass Effect is also an RPG. No, it isn't Oblivion, or Fallout, or DA:O. But it never claimed to be.

Not to take anything away from ME, but their "epic" combat is not "epic" compared to mainstream shooters. ME 2 enemy AIs werent that impressive compared to halo AIs. ME2 combat is good though.

I've played Halo. I've played ME. I still play CoD.

I find ME's combat to be the most enjoyable, CoD's the most realistic, and Halo's the most obnoxious.

[MrGone]

Wildfire Darkstar wrote...

Razorburn wrote...
Where is BioWare promising to add more RPG elements? All I've seen is gun customization, and the lack of story mechanics is what RPG fans are talking about.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I bemoaned the lack of "RPG elements" in ME2, I wasn't solely talking about story and dialogue. In fact, the most depressing thing to me about the downfall (IMO, obviously) of the Mass Effect series is that so many people seem to have normalized the idea that an RPG is defined solely by its "story mechanics." As an older-than-I-care-to-admit RPG fanboy, part of what I've found appealing about the genre from the get-go is that it allows me to role-play a character that lies outside of my normal range of talents and skills. Story-telling and characterization is a huge part of this, don't get me wrong, but it also means that I have an outside chance of playing a character whose speed and reflexes are greater than my own. I'm not good a shooters, and I don't like Gears of War. I don't mean to criticize anyone who does like such games, but I'm no longer able to role-play ME2 (and most likely ME3) as an action-oriented character, because I don't have the twitch reflexes necessary to play that kind of games. An RPG, to me, is a game where my character's skills are of more importance than my skill as a player. And, by that metric, the ME series has left the RPG genre behind long ago, and is at best trying to redefine the term so that it still applies.

Standard disclaimers apply, of course. The Mass Effect series was always a hybrid action game, and always required more "action gaming skills" than a traditional CRPG. But the first game appealed to me a lot on the basis of its RPG content, and I've had to resign myself to the fact that the full package of what I consider "RPG elements" are gone and they're never coming back. I know I sound melodramatic, but I had high hopes for ME3 after my disappointment in ME2, and the reveals we've been seeing this week have been a collosal letdown. I'm glad it's found an audience in the Gears of War crowd, but it's lost me in the process. Yeah, I know, boo-hoo. I'm sure BioWare will do just fine without me.

I see your point there. I do. But here's the thing, thought you mention that Mass effect was always an action game, you neglect to mention that it was never REALLY an RPG. At least not in a true sense. To say anything else is pretty much allowing nostalgia goggles to cloud your mind.

If I play Fallout 2, I can create a character who is great at talking his way out of situations and sucks at combat, relying on my excellent technical knowledge and ability to not get into fights to carry me through the entire game.

Or in say Deus Ex, I can play the entire game as a stealth hacker, avoiding combat and relying on my sneaking ability to get around obstacles.

ME1 may have some RPG elements, but all of them revolve around shooting aliens and blowing **** up. There are NO options for totally talking the way through the game OR sneaking through it. If it's deemed an RPG then it is one with almost no options except how you want to kill enemies (Guns? Magic? Buff/debuff tech abilities?)

It was really just a customizable action game with some RPG acoutrements.

Complaining about ME "lost" RPG elements is just silly seeing as it was never an RPG to begin with. I don't complain that Tactics Ogre is a terrible Flight sim for the same reason.

[Autoclave]

I really doubt that GoW is the first game with a cover mechanic. I think If we search thoroughly throughout all games we shall find such games released long before GoW 1.

[ChristianSoldier]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...
 Squad banter?  These are all things that I, as a diehard ME fan, can't wait to see, but I'm not so nieve that I think I'll see it at the e3 reveal.

Mass Effect  E3 footage. Starts with what?

Started with an introduction to the Mass Effect universe - which we don't need this time. Then moved on to a Galaxy Map - which was completely different than it ended up being in the game (one of the examples of "let's not show things too much because they may change and then people will whine because they changed"), then moved on to a conversation  that was never in the actual game and showing.... the dialogue wheel.

Ah yes, I assume that's what you're referring to? The fact that Mass Effect showed off the dialogue wheel as opposed to shooting stuff? Well, there's a reason for that. The dialogue wheel, at the time, was a brand new concept in video games. MOST marketing for Mass Effect revolved around the dialogue wheel. That was what was unique about the game, THAT is why they showed it off - as opposed to the subpar gunplay in the game.

In Mass Effect 2, they revamped the combat system and showed that off, and showed off more of the story - which people then complained about because they said they were spoiled.

In Mass Effect 3, they've added new touches to the combat system and are showing that off, because it is the easiest thing to make a demo of and have it work - the combat mechanics code are already there in the engine. They're also not showing off a ton of the story/RPG elements because people whined about being spoiled in ME2 and.... now people are whining about NOT being spoiled in ME3.

Make up your minds. At this point, I'm frelling done with this community, I've lurked here for years, but the absolute negativity and complaining regarding TWENTY MINUTES of gameplay footage, as though somehow that was the entire game on display right there, is just so infuriating and depressing that I can't stand it.

Don't count ME3 to have more RPG elements than ME1 or even the same amount of RPG content. For you RPG fans out there, ME3 will have more RPG elements than ME2, but less than ME1, you can count on it. IMO not that bad for me. I hated ME1 RPG gameplay. I was disappointed when headshots didnt work for **** in ME1. Glad it did for ME2. When cristina norman said headshots deal superior dmg, i was in joy. Glad Casey said that ME3 is an action game in E3. GJ BIOWARE. RPG fans move on.

[ChristianSoldier]

Autoclave wrote...

I really doubt that GoW is the first game with a cover mechanic. I think If we search thoroughly throughout all games we shall find such games released long before GoW 1.

Killswitch is known for their cover system besides GoW1. That is the only one i can think of right now, or perhaps the only one. Gears however has the BEST cover system of any game IMO. ME3 cover looks great, but i doubt it will be as smooth as gears. ME3 cover will be good though. Perhaps close to GoW1. I might b surprised but i doubt it after having played both ME2 and Gears1 and 2.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

All shooters are just DOOM clones. That means ME trilogy is a clone of GoW which is a clone of DOOM.

[ChristianSoldier]

KainrycKarr wrote...

ChristianSoldier wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

RPG - Skill trees, character customization(appearance, gender, weapon), player choice,

That's what I play RPG's for. That's what Mass Effect 3 has. Thus, to me, ME 1/2/3 all qualify as RPG's.

Funny, cause you will find thos things in plenty of games that do not claim to be rpgs but admit they are other things.

If skill trees is what makes for 'improved the rpg' in ME3, it's gonna be just another shooter.

CoD has none of those. GoW has none of those. Halo doesn't have any those(Multi has character custom in reach, sort of).

Then maybe some of those games that do have those, are a little more RPG than they admit.

Seriously,  the skill trees were one of the BIGGEST complaints for me2 when everyone realized there were SMALLER skill trees.

Now all of a sudden they don't mean anything?

Sure, ME1 had inventory; it was clunky. It was a novel concept at best, an inconvenience at worst.

ME2 did it right; but it lacked variety. Something they have already rectified with all the different weapons and weapon mods.

Skill trees were a complaint; now they've made them more complex, thus allowing more complex builds.

Player chooses dialogue.
Player chooses how events play out.
Player chooses who and what kind of person their character is.
Player can customize appearance, weapons, and skill builds.
Player can choose to skip this mission and do this mission, and vice versa; they are not linear this-one-comes-first(for the most part.)
Player can interact and develop deeper relationships with squadmates, and learn more from them about the game universe.

All of these elements are completely ABSENT from nearly every mainstream shooter.

Yet Mass Effect has these elements AND the epic combat that is the bread and butter of those games.

Mass Effect is a shooter. Mass Effect is also an RPG. No, it isn't Oblivion, or Fallout, or DA:O. But it never claimed to be.

Not to take anything away from ME, but their "epic" combat is not "epic" compared to mainstream shooters. ME 2 enemy AIs werent that impressive compared to halo AIs. ME2 combat is good though.

I've played Halo. I've played ME. I still play CoD.

I find ME's combat to be the most enjoyable, CoD's the most realistic, and Halo's the most obnoxious.

You think CoD is the most realistic? How can someone no scope snipe? who the **** throws a knife in a war? I dont see troops carrying crossbows. I cannot take you seriously.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Battlefield is the most realistic shooter IMO.

But seriously, people are complaining about ME3 because its not realistic? Thats...wow. I don't know.

[ChristianSoldier]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Battlefield is the most realistic shooter IMO.

But seriously, people are complaining about ME3 because its not realistic? Thats...wow. I don't know.

I disagree i believe Tom Clancy's shooters are the most realistic. EX) ghost recon etc. although they are set in the future.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Eh. I guess. Though I find battlefield's gameplay more enjoyable. I really don't understand why people are freaking out all because ME uses Unreal's engine for combat. I mean...would they rather prefer the crap combat system we got in ME1 instead?

[Dave666]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Eh. I guess. Though I find battlefield's gameplay more enjoyable. I really don't understand why people are freaking out all because ME uses Unreal's engine for combat. I mean...would they rather prefer the crap combat system we got in ME1 instead?

Any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[moneycashgeorge]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Battlefield is the most realistic shooter IMO.

But seriously, people are complaining about ME3 because its not realistic? Thats...wow. I don't know.

When people, like myself, say that Mass Effect 3's combat isn't looking to be "realistic", I don't mean that in the sense that it doesn't look like the "real world". Mass Effect as a series has established its own world that has its own rules and its own expectations for how things should work. It also connects itself to the "real world" in many ways.

For example its established in the Mass Effect world that people can not fly like superman. So if people did suddenly start flying like Superman, that would be just as jarring as if people in Battlefield, which is supposedly "realistic", started doing the same.

Likewise it is established in Mass Effect that omni-tools can not be used to stab people to death. So, if omni-tools suddenly can do that, and a logical and convincing explanation is not given for this unexpected phenomenon, than it is "unrealistic" in that the game is not adhering to rules that the fictional "reality" has established for itself.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Dave666 wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Eh. I guess. Though I find battlefield's gameplay more enjoyable. I really don't understand why people are freaking out all because ME uses Unreal's engine for combat. I mean...would they rather prefer the crap combat system we got in ME1 instead?

Any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

W...why?

@ Money: So its unrealistic in its already unrealistic science-fiction fantasy universe, which isn't real.

Modifié par Mr.BlazenGlazen, 08 juin 2011 - 08:34 .