50 réponses à ce sujet

[ETermin]

don't forget to invoke newton's 3rd law while you are at it.

[csean]

Darkhour wrote...

Why it's in newtons? Only the guys in charge know.

I believe 1200 newtons is about 270 pounds of pressure and it is to read as a 270 pound man falling out of the sky... but horizontally toward the target.  If that is the case it's more than enough to knock down any humanoid and send them flying. 

That's not right. 1200 Newtons is about 270 pounds force. That would be equivalent to having a 270-pound human sitting on your head, not dropping out of the sky. If he were dropping out of the sky onto your head you'd have to know the speed he was traveling at and the time it took to bring his velocity to zero. To know force you'd need to multiply his mass by his velocity and then divide by the length of the collision (time). That's why I'm saying newtons aren't the most meaningful measurement. Having the numbers in newtons only can tell you acceleration, and with those numbers it isn't that big a push. Measuring powers in terms of energy or impulse would be more informative.

[csean]

Edit: Double Post

Modifié par csean, 09 juin 2011 - 12:44 .

[Fhaileas]

csean wrote...

To know force you'd need to multiply his mass by his velocity and then divide by the length of the collision (time). That's why I'm saying newtons aren't the most meaningful measurement. Having the numbers in newtons only can tell you acceleration, and with those numbers it isn't that big a push. Measuring powers in terms of energy or impulse would be more informative.

Errr... what? Force is propotional to acceleration, the higher the acceleration (in relation to the object's center of gravity), the bigger the force of impact, since mass is a constant in variable-mass systems mass cannot be considered as a function of time.

What you have described is taking Force as a derivative of Momentum (mass*velocity) over time, which is ONLY applicable to closed and constant-mass system in which the 2nd law of thermpdynamics and "energy" conservation would apply.

[Asari Scientist]

I have a question. According to ME lore, Eezo has the ability to alter the mass of an object. How does this translate into a force being applied through biotics?

[Ninjapino]

As much as this interest me and I wish I could understand it better, this thread is far to nerdy for my uneducated brain.....I get the general concepts, but I never took physics.... I feel dumb just being here.

[csean]

Asari Scientist wrote...

I have a question. According to ME lore, Eezo has the ability to alter the mass of an object. How does this translate into a force being applied through biotics?

That's what I don't entirely get either. The descriptions for Throw and Shockwave don't say anything about reducing the mass of the target or target area. It's very clear for Lift, Pull, and Slam. On the other hand since Throw and Shockwave are much more effective on weightless targets I'm guessing they don't decrease the target's mass by much if at all.

[Bogsnot1]

csean wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...
It has to be measured in Newtons. Not everyone is familiar with the velocity of a sheep in a vacuum.

Lol? I'm not quite sure what you mean by this post

I admit to being slightly wrong, it had been a while since I had read the article, and forgot that The Reg's units of force were measured in Norris's, and not sheep velocity.
1200 Newtons of force is roughly equivalent to 12 Norris's.

The Register's Standard Units of Measurement.
The Register's Standard Units Converter.

[Darkhour]

csean wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Why it's in newtons? Only the guys in charge know.

I believe 1200 newtons is about 270 pounds of pressure and it is to read as a 270 pound man falling out of the sky... but horizontally toward the target.  If that is the case it's more than enough to knock down any humanoid and send them flying. 

That's not right. 1200 Newtons is about 270 pounds force. That would be equivalent to having a 270-pound human sitting on your head, not dropping out of the sky. If he were dropping out of the sky onto your head you'd have to know the speed he was traveling at and the time it took to bring his velocity to zero. To know force you'd need to multiply his mass by his velocity and then divide by the length of the collision (time). That's why I'm saying newtons aren't the most meaningful measurement. Having the numbers in newtons only can tell you acceleration, and with those numbers it isn't that big a push. Measuring powers in terms of energy or impulse would be more informative.

You are assuming Bioware staff are composed of physicists.

As I said "it is to read as a 270 pound man falling out of the sky".  Rather or not that is how it works in reality is of no bearing on what Bioware may mean by it. It is a force sitting on your head, but applied horizontally with a mass field and speed combination equating to roughly 270 pounds.

I don't see what else the description can mean.

[Ahglock]

thurmanator692 wrote...

well, i think a heavyweight boxer punches from about 500-1100 newtons. so 1200 is a freakin lot. I think its 1600 to break bone, just so you have a point of reference

Actually boxers hit in the 4-5000 range.  

[Rolenka]

Yes, but can the Normandy make the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs?

[Ahglock]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Huh. Nevermind then, I don't use newtons a lot, so I'm gonna go ahead and take your word for it. What is it to break bone?

It depends on how focussed the blow is I think.  Ever since the advent of gloves boxers have hit with stronger blows since the danger of killing others and hurting themselves was reduced, mostly hurting themselves.  4,000 newtons spread out over a big soft boxing glove is different than 4,000 newtons focussed into something rhe size of a dime and rock hard.  Football players tackle for well over 5,000 newtons thanks to the armor they wear and how the blow is diffused people rarely get hurt.  

[JMTolan]

I always assumed that all/most biotic abilities put their target into a weightless state, which is why you could get those sorts of forces working on people.

Examples:
Pull (Which is purpose-built to cause weightlessness) induces the weightless state in the target, and applies a light force in the opposite direction it collides with.Since the force isn't enough to cause collision damage, it's not given. The biotic is focusing on the duration of the effect, not the force applied.

Throw, in terms of gameplay, doesn't induce weightlessness, but from a physics perspective, if we assume it does, if briefly, and then applies the force, it almost becomes an inverted Pull--The biotic focuses on the force of the biotic blast, not the duration of the weightless effect, making force worth measuring, while weightless duration is not.

For those being nitpicky about the notation (Mainly the topic starter, no offense) you could reasonably assume than an "instantaneous force" is one applied over, say, a second or two. While this wouldn't be enough to do much to a weighted target, if we again assume most biotic powers induce weightlessness, it suddenly becomes at least a bit more reasonable.

Shockwave I might call a series of biotic blasts placed on the ground, inducing a small weightless-throw effect on those it hits. Warp is a detonation of a biotic effect, so it has neither duration nor force--it simply consumes the biotic energy in the target and converts it to a explosive force, with some sideline about molecular ripping to explain stopping regen.

I'm not even going to try Charge. Charge is magic.

Regardless, if we assume Throw (Which I think is the main issue here) induces weightlessness briefly, then the forces it works at become much more reasonable to what they do. It also, to me, matches up with what I see--When I use throw, the enemy gets the blue "weightless" aura while he's being thrown, or something near it. It seems like a reasonable explanation to me.

-Tolan

[Bogsnot1]

Ahglock wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Huh. Nevermind then, I don't use newtons a lot, so I'm gonna go ahead and take your word for it. What is it to break bone?

It depends on how focussed the blow is I think.  Ever since the advent of gloves boxers have hit with stronger blows since the danger of killing others and hurting themselves was reduced, mostly hurting themselves.  4,000 newtons spread out over a big soft boxing glove is different than 4,000 newtons focussed into something rhe size of a dime and rock hard.  Football players tackle for well over 5,000 newtons thanks to the armor they wear and how the blow is diffused people rarely get hurt.  

Since the advent of boxing gloves, the risk of death/serious brain trauma from boxing has increased, because the boxers no longer have to worry about protecting their hands and landing the blow correctly, and can instead just lash out with full force with reduced accuracy.
There are even doctors who are calling for a return of bare knuckle boxing purely to reduce the amount of serious brain damage that gets inflicted because of boxing gloves. Sure, a lot of these doctors are plastic surgeons who will get paid returning the said boxers face to something resembling a human after his opponent has rearranged his features, but at least he wont be brain dead.

[arne1234]

Darkhour wrote...

csean wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Why it's in newtons? Only the guys in charge know.

I believe 1200 newtons is about 270 pounds of pressure and it is to read as a 270 pound man falling out of the sky... but horizontally toward the target.  If that is the case it's more than enough to knock down any humanoid and send them flying. 

That's not right. 1200 Newtons is about 270 pounds force. That would be equivalent to having a 270-pound human sitting on your head, not dropping out of the sky. If he were dropping out of the sky onto your head you'd have to know the speed he was traveling at and the time it took to bring his velocity to zero. To know force you'd need to multiply his mass by his velocity and then divide by the length of the collision (time). That's why I'm saying newtons aren't the most meaningful measurement. Having the numbers in newtons only can tell you acceleration, and with those numbers it isn't that big a push. Measuring powers in terms of energy or impulse would be more informative.

You are assuming Bioware staff are composed of physicists.

As I said "it is to read as a 270 pound man falling out of the sky".  Rather or not that is how it works in reality is of no bearing on what Bioware may mean by it. It is a force sitting on your head, but applied horizontally with a mass field and speed combination equating to roughly 270 pounds.

I don't see what else the description can mean.

F= M.A the laws of newtons apple You get those in 4th grade from high school. Joule would have been a desend measerment or it's organic counterpart the calorie... Then again they could have simply invented a unit of measurement like being xx% on the (Casey) Hudson scale. That would have been funny

[Kidd]

JMTolan wrote...

I'm not even going to try Charge. Charge is magic.

Shepard studied the Conduit and applied it to her own biotics. Miniature mass relay, baby! ^^

[uberdowzen]

Bioware craft a massive universe teeming with various alien species (each with their own deeply crafted cultures), epic locations like the Citadel and Illium and carefully thought out technology such as the mass effect and biotics.

Gamer: You've got the level of force for the powers wrong.

Gamers seriously need to get their priorities right...

[Bearcut]

uberdowzen wrote...

Bioware craft a massive universe teeming with various alien species (each with their own deeply crafted cultures), epic locations like the Citadel and Illium and carefully thought out technology such as the mass effect and biotics.

Gamer: You've got the level of force for the powers wrong.

Gamers seriously need to get their priorities right...

I think people are just trying to learn some physics man, relax.
They wouldn't be here if they didn't love Mass Effect.

[csean]

JMTolan wrote...

I'm not even going to try Charge. Charge is magic.

Regardless, if we assume Throw (Which I think is the main issue here) induces weightlessness briefly, then the forces it works at become much more reasonable to what they do. It also, to me, matches up with what I see--When I use throw, the enemy gets the blue "weightless" aura while he's being thrown, or something near it. It seems like a reasonable explanation to me.

-Tolan

I always thought Charge worked like a mini Mass Relay. Of course we have no idea how the mass relays actually work but considering FTL travel is made possible using mass effect fields then why can't biotics do it too since they use the same tech?

[MonkeyKaboom]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

Huh. Nevermind then, I don't use newtons a lot, so I'm gonna go ahead and take your word for it. What is it to break bone?

It depends on how focussed the blow is I think.  Ever since the advent of gloves boxers have hit with stronger blows since the danger of killing others and hurting themselves was reduced, mostly hurting themselves.  4,000 newtons spread out over a big soft boxing glove is different than 4,000 newtons focussed into something rhe size of a dime and rock hard.  Football players tackle for well over 5,000 newtons thanks to the armor they wear and how the blow is diffused people rarely get hurt.  

Since the advent of boxing gloves, the risk of death/serious brain trauma from boxing has increased, because the boxers no longer have to worry about protecting their hands and landing the blow correctly, and can instead just lash out with full force with reduced accuracy.
There are even doctors who are calling for a return of bare knuckle boxing purely to reduce the amount of serious brain damage that gets inflicted because of boxing gloves. Sure, a lot of these doctors are plastic surgeons who will get paid returning the said boxers face to something resembling a human after his opponent has rearranged his features, but at least he wont be brain dead.

You have never boxed.  All gloves do (in any appreciable amount) is protect the skin from laceration/abrasion.  There is some effect in absorbing force but the difference between a 12oz boxing glove and a 4oz MMA glove is almost negligable (I know from personal experience in both).  As far as the hands go, actually one of the biggest concerns is breaking your hands so you know not what you are talking about.  A trainer skilled in hand wrapping is worth their weight in gold.  A proper hand wrap saves your career.  Fear of breaking bones (after having done so) is the reason I quit boxing/MMA once deciding to continue my education into a surgical field.  And just to clue you in on the real issue, the reason boxing is so dangerous is because of the repeated head trauma brought about by stupid count rules that allow someone that has been flash knocked out and possibly sustaining a concussion to return to fighting simply by standing up in time.  

[MonkeyKaboom]

Since most of the people attracted to this game are the physical sciences type its understandable this topic causes you grief. Primarily, they just put in a random number that sounded good.  Its a video game about space aliens, psychic powers and space ship sex.  Get over it...But I'm going to give you a little hint. People aren't cinder blocks. Physics alone will not answer your question. Its not enough to simply punch a few numbers in a calculator. You need to have a decent understanding of human(oid) anatomy and kinematics of injury. Unless we are talking about pushing something (ie skill throw) into a wall or some other structure, with regards to a human body, sustained force application means nothing. Once the body has accelerated there is no further damage from the sustained force (until striking a surface as stated). The initial impact is the area of significance. This is for 2 reasons. The transfer of energy causing trauma on impact (initial collision). Followed by the subsequent injuries of internal organs striking against solid body structures (bones) due delayed acceleration (being that we have body cavities full of various fluids). This is known as secondary collision. For example the brain striking the inside of the cranium. You can also have shearing of suspended structures at weak points. For example acute acceleration (or deceleration; yes I know that's just negative acceleration) can cause the heart to shear from the aorta. Just as a side note, the most damaging injuries come from a punch that is sharp with a sudden force application, where as "pushing through" your target actually does less damage. That's just basic boxing technique.

Anyways, you then have to figure is the biotic throw focused to a specific body region or applied to the body as a whole? A focuses application for be more traumatic in terms of localizing the force but also in that the rippling of energy transfer through the body would cause subsequent damage to adjacent structures (tearing muscles, etc.)

Modifié par MonkeyKaboom, 10 juin 2011 - 12:07 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

Asari Scientist wrote...

I have a question. According to ME lore, Eezo has the ability to alter the mass of an object. How does this translate into a force being applied through biotics?

I always figured that, since mass effect fields can clearly drop very large objects to zero mass for FTL, and can drive up a small objects mass enough to pull objects into its gravitational field for singularity, they were capable of taking a taking things to extreme negative mass, making gravity into a repulsive force. I think this is also how kinetic barriers work.  Force of gravity = g(m1*m2)/r^2. With both masses positive, you get a positive force, in this case meaning attraction. WIth one mass positive, and the other negative, you get a negative force, in this case meaning repulsion.

In ME1, I generally figure that most powers work by taking some small object (small enough that you can store an effectively infinite number of them) delivered into your hand by some sort of system in your suit (weapons self-assemble, so this seems possible), changing its mass, and throwing it. For singularity, you make it really heavy. For warp, you make it chaotically heavy and negatively massed, causing it to break up quickly after leaving your hand, and wreak havoc over an area as things are torn and pushed in every direction. Throw makes the object get very negatively massed, so it repels itself from your hand, presumably drifts upwards, and, upon reaching the target, repulses them. I have no idea how lift works (I also just didn't use that power very often), stasis made no sense as actually being a biotic ability (I just imagine it's a tech power with a biotic delivery system), and barrier works like any other kinetic barrier (generates a bunch of little negative-mass particles,  repulsing stuff).

In ME2, I think, if you look closely, you can see little rockets while your powers are in transit. I may have just been halucinating though. Biotics in ME2 never made as much sense to me, especially since a ME1 soldier can become a ME2 biotic.

EDIT: I think the poster above me got charge, and biotic flight (the cutscene power) spot on.

Modifié par MinotaurWarrior, 10 juin 2011 - 02:11 .