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[Hathur]

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other, even when they have doubts.

Garrus (and Tali) was a true friend... never turned on Shep.. was there from the beginning, trusted her motives, helped her without hesitation when she asked him to and stuck by her side to he very end on what could have been a suicide mission... that's true friendship & love right there... so now Garrus is shep's best friend and loved one... Kaidan can go do whatever the hell he wants.. but if Shep had her way, he wouldn't set foot on the Normandy ever again.

Modifié par Hathur, 08 juin 2011 - 04:25 .

[Manic Sheep]

Estelindis wrote...
If we slam Kaidan's response on Horizon as being badly written, let's at least admit that Shepard's was written awfully too. Really - Shep greets a former lover/friend who risked his life many times by Shep's side and has been through thick and thin with Shep... who mourned Shep after seeing the Normandy destroyed... and Shep says nothing deeper than a casual "How've you been?" It's woeful.

That^

and really you had been gone for 2 years and were working with Cerberus at the time. It would have been stupid if they were okay with that. If my granddad came back to life and was working with an organisation as bad as Cerberus I sure as hell wouldn't trust him despite how much I care about him.  Tho the dialogue was awful all around on Horizon.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 08 juin 2011 - 04:29 .

[Dapper Pomegranate]

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other, even when they have doubts.

But at the same time, despite Shepard's professed love for Kaidan, he kind of snubbed him up until Horizon. He never visited or even sent a message. Then he finally shows up and it turns out he's not only working for the enemy, but his only response is "It's been a long time" (or whatever he says). I think that'd throw anyone for a loop. Kaidan probably just needed time to process everything. I mean, he did send out that nice semi-apology email afterwards.

[PrinceLionheart]

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other, even when they have doubts.

Garrus (and Tali) was a true friend... never turned on Shep.. was there from the beginning, trusted her motives, helped her without hesitation when she asked him to and stuck by her side to he very end on what could have been a suicide mission... that's true friendship & love right there... so now Garrus is shep's best friend and loved one... Kaidan can go do whatever the hell he wants.. but if Shep had her way, he wouldn't set foot on the Normandy ever again.

Wrong. People tend to gloss over this, or simply forget, but Tali actually tells you no the first time. Remember back on Freedom Progress?

[jeweledleah]

FrozenFire42 wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other, even when they have doubts.

But at the same time, despite Shepard's professed love for Kaidan, he kind of snubbed him up until Horizon. He never visited or even sent a message. Then he finally shows up and it turns out he's not only working for the enemy, but his only response is "It's been a long time" (or whatever he says). I think that'd throw anyone for a loop. Kaidan probably just needed time to process everything. I mean, he did send out that nice semi-apology email afterwards.

but don't you know?  all this trust is one sided.   everyone is supposed to trust shepard without hecitation regadless of the evidence or ridiculous excuses, Shepard is not obligated to give same.  Shepard is a space Jesus and you don't question space Jesus.  ever.  >_>

I mean who cares that they thought Shepard was dead, for all intents and purposes - saw Shepard die, grieved for Shep fro YEARS and there he/she is, alive and well acting like nothing happened.  are they the real Shepard?  are they being brainwashed, controlled?  or did you never knew them to begin with, did the person you thought you knew ever existed or was it all pretence?

incidentaly - Tali mostly goes with you becasue she's fed up with being sent on dangerous missions by the admiralty and losing her team, time after time.  Garrus?  he's kinda a wanted man.  where else will he go?  his team is dead, he himself is hunted and here's an old aquaintance  (remember, he goes along with you even if you never recruited him in ME1 - even though he has no reason to trust you)

Modifié par jeweledleah, 08 juin 2011 - 04:49 .

[Spectre_907]

I only had minor issues with the first upper dialogue option but to be honest, how else is Shepard going to react? What has been two years for Ashley or Kaidan has been far less for Shepard. Aside from that line, the others seem reasonable. I do not think the fault lies on Shepard alone. As for Kaidan or Ashley's reaction, they have every right to be suspicious of you considering the time frame and your lack of communication regardless of the circumstances. More so if they were not romanced. Hopefully there will be some reconciliation during ME3 with expression of either contempt or forgiveness on your part without being forced into either side being at fault.

[ShadowLordXXX]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan
never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his
back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said
he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true
friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other,
even when they have doubts.

Garrus (and Tali) was a true friend... never turned on Shep.. was there from the beginning, trusted her motives, helped her without hesitation when she asked him to
and stuck by her side to he very end on what could have been a suicide
mission... that's true friendship & love right there... so now
Garrus is shep's best friend and loved one... Kaidan can go do whatever
the hell he wants.. but if Shep had her way, he wouldn't set foot on the
Normandy ever again.

Wrong. People tend to gloss over
this, or simply forget, but Tali actually tells you no the first time.
Remember back on Freedom Progress?

Actually Tali says: "Can it wait, I'm in the middle of some calibrations"

Oh wait wrong character

But what Tali does say is that she can't join you because she's in the middle of a mission, she also doesn't call you a traitor like the VS do, despite the fact that Tali arguably has more reason to distrust Cerberus(Cerberus is generally anti-alien and they infiltrated the Migrant Fleet and nearly blew one of the ships up etc). Also if you gave Tali the data in ME1 she'll tell you something about the nature of her mission even.

Modifié par ShadowLordXXX, 08 juin 2011 - 04:50 .

[Estelindis]

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her...

Kaidan said that he trusted Shepard but didn't trust Cerberus.  Quite a difference there.

If we compare him to Garrus, we may note that Garrus has no responsibilities to leave behind after his recruitment mission (which is not to knock Garrus's loyalty to Shepard; he's awesome), whereas Kaidan is an alliance officer with his own work to carry out.  If Kaidan deserted that to join Cerberus, he'd be going completely against his better judgment - and he'd also lose whatever leverage he had with the alliance and the council, where he's clearly putting in some good word for Shepard in spite of everything (Anderson says Kaidan's report confirms Shepard's description of Horizon).  Loving Shepard doesn't mean that he needs to do what she wants all the time and never heed the obligations and duties of his own life, some of which may, in the end, prove to help her more than just another member on her already amply-filled suicide team. 

[Ryzaki]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other, even when they have doubts.

Garrus (and Tali) was a true friend... never turned on Shep.. was there from the beginning, trusted her motives, helped her without hesitation when she asked him to and stuck by her side to he very end on what could have been a suicide mission... that's true friendship & love right there... so now Garrus is shep's best friend and loved one... Kaidan can go do whatever the hell he wants.. but if Shep had her way, he wouldn't set foot on the Normandy ever again.

Wrong. People tend to gloss over this, or simply forget, but Tali actually tells you no the first time. Remember back on Freedom Progress?

 

Yeah she tells you no because she has an important mission and even says she wishes she *could* go with you but it (the Haerstrom mission) was more important.  She doesn't scream about Shepard being a traitor and storms off. If Kaidan/Ash had said something similar (I would if  could Shepard, but I have more important things on my plate) I would consider them on Tali/Garrus' level. They don't. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2011 - 04:51 .

[Hathur]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other, even when they have doubts.

Garrus (and Tali) was a true friend... never turned on Shep.. was there from the beginning, trusted her motives, helped her without hesitation when she asked him to and stuck by her side to he very end on what could have been a suicide mission... that's true friendship & love right there... so now Garrus is shep's best friend and loved one... Kaidan can go do whatever the hell he wants.. but if Shep had her way, he wouldn't set foot on the Normandy ever again.

Wrong. People tend to gloss over this, or simply forget, but Tali actually tells you no the first time. Remember back on Freedom Progress?

But her explanation is logical.. she made obligations and had responsibilities to her own people... it's not logical to assume she just abandon her responsibilities to her own people to help Shepard... besides, you also fail to mention she says she wants to rejoin Shepard but can't due to current obligations but may in the future.... a very important difference to the VS reaction.

Modifié par Hathur, 08 juin 2011 - 04:51 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Hathur wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her... he turned his back on her when she asked him to help and trust her motives... he said he basically can't trust her or her motives and left... that's no true friend or lover... a real friend / lover trusts & helps the other, even when they have doubts.

Garrus (and Tali) was a true friend... never turned on Shep.. was there from the beginning, trusted her motives, helped her without hesitation when she asked him to and stuck by her side to he very end on what could have been a suicide mission... that's true friendship & love right there... so now Garrus is shep's best friend and loved one... Kaidan can go do whatever the hell he wants.. but if Shep had her way, he wouldn't set foot on the Normandy ever again.

Wrong. People tend to gloss over this, or simply forget, but Tali actually tells you no the first time. Remember back on Freedom Progress?

But her explanation is logical.. she made obligations and had responsibilities to her own people... it's not logical to assume she just abandon her responsibilities to her own people to help Shepard... besides, you also fail to mention she says she wants to rejoin Shepard but can't due to current obligations but may in the future.... a very important difference to the VS reaction.

How is VS refusal not logical though? As Alliance Solders they, rightfully, judge Cerberus based off of their past terrorist encounters. VS even says "I want to trust you but I can't trust them." When they report back to Anderson they even 100% back up everything you told them in their reports. So obviously they're still loyal to Shepard, Cerberus was just cause of their emotional outburst.

[trying_touch]

it's not that hard to rewrite someone who abandoned you back into the plot when now you have a common enemy... two common enemies...

[Dapper Pomegranate]

jeweledleah wrote...

but don't you know?  all this trust is one sided.   everyone is supposed to trust shepard without hecitation regadless of the evidence or ridiculous excuses, Shepard is not obligated to give same.  Shepard is a space Jesus and you don't question space Jesus.  ever.  >_>

Oh god, I forgot. I'm sorry space Jesus. I forgot that you inspire loyalty despite not doing anything; that everyone should love you and hang on your every word, no matter how derpy or inappropriate it may be. Please forgive me, and see it in your heart not to smite me.

Modifié par FrozenFire42, 08 juin 2011 - 05:08 .

[ElitePinecone]

Estelindis wrote...

If we slam Kaidan's response on Horizon as being badly written, let's at least admit that Shepard's was written awfully too. Really - Shep greets a former lover/friend who risked his life many times by Shep's side and has been through thick and thin with Shep... who mourned Shep after seeing the Normandy destroyed... and Shep says nothing deeper than a casual "How've you been?" It's woeful.

This. The tone of the delivery is also just awful. It's as though they casually passed each other on the street.

The dissonance between the actual conversation and then Shepard's talk with Kelly afterwards - 'I missed him', etc, makes me think the writers didn't coordinate very well on Horizon. 

[Pax of Doom]

Estelindis wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her...

Kaidan said that he trusted Shepard but didn't trust Cerberus.  Quite a difference there.

If we compare him to Garrus, we may note that Garrus has no responsibilities to leave behind after his recruitment mission (which is not to knock Garrus's loyalty to Shepard; he's awesome), whereas Kaidan is an alliance officer with his own work to carry out.  If Kaidan deserted that to join Cerberus, he'd be going completely against his better judgment - and he'd also lose whatever leverage he had with the alliance and the council, where he's clearly putting in some good word for Shepard in spite of everything (Anderson says Kaidan's report confirms Shepard's description of Horizon).  Loving Shepard doesn't mean that he needs to do what she wants all the time and never heed the obligations and duties of his own life, some of which may, in the end, prove to help her more than just another member on her already amply-filled suicide team. 

Very well said.

[Spectre_907]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

How is VS refusal not logical though? As Alliance Solders they, rightfully, judge Cerberus based off of their past terrorist encounters.

As do the Migrant Fleet, evidenced by the quarians' reaction to you during Tali's trial and Tali's questioning of your judgment after Haestrom. Both Tali and the VS are in the same position and risk committing treason by joining Shepard. Tali decides to join while the VS does not. Thus Tali is more loyal to Shepard than the VS. This would be fine and consistent however the VS has already demonstrated a loyalty to Shepard over the Alliance in the first game with the attempted mutiny. The VS deciding not to join you on Horizon because of the same reason is not consistent with his/her previous actions and thus not logical.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 08 juin 2011 - 05:21 .

[Raiil]

I dunno. I don't hate Kaidan, but I don't particularly care for him (and yes, I romanced him) and I'm not ashamed to admit that my hot-headed canon Shepard is probably going to take any chance to troll the hell out of him and run with it.

I do agree it was bad writing, but I also feel like Kaidan never really apologised, either. Just a sort of 'I was taken by surprise' and then left it extremely ambigously. That's why I feel, also, that my Shepard didn't cheat on him- he turned his back on her before she could really explain the situation and without the trust needed, there is no relationship. I'm not saying it's his fault for being distrustful, but from her- not necessarily my- perspective, Kaidan abandoned her when she needed him most. She ended up moving on to Thane, and, well, Mister Migraine is going to have to deal.

[Dapper Pomegranate]

ElitePinecone wrote...

The dissonance between the actual conversation and then Shepard's talk with Kelly afterwards - 'I missed him', etc, makes me think the writers didn't coordinate very well on Horizon. 

Completely agree. Shepard's conversations with Kelly and Joker were actually, y'know, good. I don't know why he couldn't have shown that emotion when he was face-to-face with Kaidan moments earlier...I guess it could be uncoordinated writers...bleh, I'll just blame the interns, maybe they wrote Shep's Horizon lines.

[Estelindis]

Thanks for all the support and comments from people quoting my posts.  It's good to know I'm not the only one who reads Horizon, Shep and Kaidan this way.

FrozenFire42 wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

The dissonance between the actual conversation and then Shepard's talk with Kelly afterwards - 'I missed him', etc, makes me think the writers didn't coordinate very well on Horizon. 

Completely agree. Shepard's conversations with Kelly and Joker were actually, y'know, good. I don't know why he couldn't have shown that emotion when he was face-to-face with Kaidan moments earlier...I guess it could be uncoordinated writers...bleh, I'll just blame the interns, maybe they wrote Shep's Horizon lines.

I agree on this too; the post-Horizon conversations have much more emotional depth than the majority of the Horizon scene (though I feel the best work on Horizon is in those few moments of silence when Kaidan and Shepard just look at each other, his eyes say so much, and then they embrace; everything after that goes downhill).

For me, what was especially dissonant about Horizon was the fact that Shepard knew Kaidan would be there - had some reason to believe, even, that the Collectors might be targetting Kaidan specifically - and was racing through combat to stop the attack, save the colony, and hopefully help Kaidan.  Then, when the Collector ship takes off, the mechanic Delan is utterly distraught, but Shepard is totally calm.  There isn't even the option to say "Kaidan could be on that ship - we need to follow it on the double!"  Shepard doesn't yet know that he's made it through the attack.  She treats the Collectors' escape as unfortunate but takes an "it can't be helped" attitude.  Now, I don't believe in making her fall down in tears and cry "Nooooo!!!!" to the smoky sky.  Shepard is not a tantrum-prone child but a woman of action.  I'd have liked to see her readying to take some action rather than making excuses to a random NPC.

Modifié par Estelindis, 08 juin 2011 - 05:36 .

[Massadonious1]

Charred corpses can't talk silly.

[Spatchmo]

Kaidan should have just joined up with Shepard. It would have been like old times.

[Massadonious1]

"Old Times" in the Mass Effect series is going to become the new "I have a bad feeling about this"

[blackashes411]

Spatchmo wrote...

Kaidan should have just joined up with Shepard. It would have been like old times.

No, it won't. He'll never work for Cerberus.

Goodbye, Spatchmo. And be careful.

Modifié par blackashes411, 08 juin 2011 - 07:17 .