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[ThatDancingTurian]

Estelindis wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Kaidan never trusted Shep, despite his professed love for her...

Kaidan said that he trusted Shepard but didn't trust Cerberus.  Quite a difference there.

Prejudging Shepard and telling her she's 'changed' before he's even heard her side of the story doesn't sound like trust to me.

I hope the VS apologizes in ME3. I don't want them to completely roll over and plead for forgiveness, but (particularly if you blew up the base and severed ties with Cerberus,) mentioning something about how they should have trusted Shepard's judgment after everything and that they're glad Shep is still the same person would be nice.

[jeweledleah]

laecraft wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I wonder what kind of ******-ant apology

etc.

"Guess I was right about Cerberus, huh?"

If he says that, if he mutters that, if he even THINKS that too loud, I am going to use my emotion interrupt and slug him. And then I will ask him on which Alliance station he wants to be deboarded. I am in need of allies, and I do like to be reasonable, but there is a limit to what my Shepard can take after witnessing the Earth being invaded by the Reapers. Shepard is under a lot of stress, he just had to flee and leave humanity at the Reapers' mercy, and the last thing he needs is an inane "I told you so" from someone who already betrayed him months ago.

Cerberus fought the Collectors by my side - where were you, Kaidan? Cerberus stood by me when the Council declared me mentally unbalanced - and where were you? Cerberus was preparing to the war, and what were you doing, aside from spying on me and judging me from your high moral mountain? Is it lonely and cold, up above? What did you do to save the galaxy? Is your halo strangling you now? Sure it doesn't feel a little too tight?

Cerberus burned all the bridges for you, destroyed your reputation while you were in a coma, untill even the person who personaly selected you for the Normandy didn't want to trust you (Anderson), and he presumably knew you a lot longer then Kaidan and Ashley.  according to Hackett (who is almost as cautious as Anderson, despite his presence on the Normandy) - alliance has been evacuating all the colonies that they could and VS?  were sent into terminus to help out the colonies there, despite the fact that alliance is not welcome there to the point of system war being possible if they so much as inch close to the borders openly. Cerberus was manipulating you, railroading you, setting you up again and again, all the while making excuses about all those "rogue" cells, some of which you cleaned up after in ME1... with VS at your side.

Kaidan/Ashley spent years grieving, blaming themselves for obeying your order and not helping you with joker, and what do they hear?  carefuly placed rumors about you being alive and working with cerberus and hey, there's a tip that cerberus is planning on hittting this particular colony next and lo and behond it gets hit and who shows up next?  you, who didn't bother to contact them... on a cerberus vesel, confirming with your own words that yes, you are working for (with, but lets be honest, not much of a distinction there)  Cerberus. 

who betrayed whom exactly?

I do hope that in ME3, if you made choices that were anti Cerberus, they apologize and say that they should have listened to you and if you were pro cerberus?  I hope they are cold and mistrustful and barely civil, unless you work damn hard to earn their trust back.

[WidowMaker9394]

I cheated on him with an alien. **** yeah.

[Ryzaki]

laecraft wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I wonder what kind of ******-ant apology

etc.

"Guess I was right about Cerberus, huh?"

If he says that, if he mutters that, if he even THINKS that too loud, I am going to use my emotion interrupt and slug him. And then I will ask him on which Alliance station he wants to be deboarded. I am in need of allies, and I do like to be reasonable, but there is a limit to what my Shepard can take after witnessing the Earth being invaded by the Reapers. Shepard is under a lot of stress, he just had to flee and leave humanity at the Reapers' mercy, and the last thing he needs is an inane "I told you so" from someone who already betrayed him months ago.

Cerberus fought the Collectors by my side - where were you, Kaidan? Cerberus stood by me when the Council declared me mentally unbalanced - and where were you? Cerberus was preparing to the war, and what were you doing, aside from spying on me and judging me from your high moral mountain? Is it lonely and cold, up above? What did you do to save the galaxy? Is your halo strangling you now? Sure it doesn't feel a little too tight?

 

Yeah even a few of my paragons are gonna be like "STFU Kaidan. You lousy teammate. Would've followed me anywhere my ass." ah I hope you can throw everything Shep had to do to stop the collectors in his face. "I had to rely on Cerberus. It was there people who had my back. Their people who saved my life. Not you Kaidan. You have no right to speak to me that way."  Even my anti-Cerberus Sheps can't wait to say that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2011 - 07:58 .

[Erudius]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...
Wrong. People tend to gloss over
this, or simply forget, but Tali actually tells you no the first time.
Remember back on Freedom Progress?

... But what Tali does say is that she can't join you because she's in the middle of a mission, she also doesn't call you a traitor like the VS do ...

"It's not you I don't trust, Shepard. It's Cerberus." -Tali vas Normandy  She's my Shep's woman now.

Modifié par Rick Singh, 08 juin 2011 - 11:09 .

[Erudius]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Charred corpses can't talk silly.

LAWL awesome.

[Erudius]

jeweledleah wrote...

Cerberus burned all the bridges for you, destroyed your reputation while you were in a coma, untill even the person who personaly selected you for the Normandy didn't want to trust you (Anderson), and he presumably knew you a lot longer then Kaidan and Ashley. ...

Actually the person I blamed for all that happening (not that i'm not grateful for being alive) is Liara. She was my love interest in ME1 (only because Tali was not a possible LI) and I gave her every oportunity to come back to me even after learning of her handing me over to Cerberus.

Yet I Digress. - Kaidan was my best friend in ME1 - When I was playing through the 1st time on ME2 I figured all the loyalty points would count for something. But I was wrong.

Modifié par Rick Singh, 08 juin 2011 - 11:33 .

[syllogi]

I really hope the game gives us a chance to acknowledge that not every player needs or wants their behind kissed by the Virmire Survivor. It was correct, in that circumstance on Horizon, to be disbelieving and hesitant to rejoin Shepard. Shepard did NOTHING to attempt to change their mind. If other people think the player character is infallible and should never be responsible for their actions, play that way, but I'd like better writing than that in ME3.

Tali was in a life or death situation, had no other pressing obligations AND had had time to think about the fact that Shepard was alive and working with Cerberus. Garrus also had no other obligations, had been rescued from a life or death situation, and while recovering on the Normandy, had time to deal with Shepard working with Cerberus.

Kaidan/Ashley had *just* recovered from a paralyzing agent, and they had obligations to the Systems Alliance Military and probably also the Citadel Council if they were already Spectres. They did not have time to react "properly" to seeing Shepard alive. Shepard's brain dead responses were probably frustrating and annoying too, since it would seem like a REALLY big deal to apparently "switch sides", and Shepard brushes it off like it's nothing.

Write your own fanfiction ending to the story if you don't want characters to ever disagree with Shepard and fawn and scrape over the almighty player character. I'm still hoping that the writers are more interested in writing a compelling story, where Shepard is portrayed as human and flawed, and it is acknowledged that joining Cerberus in ME2 was SO DUMB.

[Erudius]

TeenZombie wrote...
I really hope the game gives us a chance to acknowledge that not every player needs or wants their behind kissed by the Virmire Survivor. It was correct, in that circumstance on Horizon, to be disbelieving and hesitant to rejoin Shepard. Shepard did NOTHING to attempt to change their mind. If other people think the player character is infallible and should never be responsible for their actions, play that way, but I'd like better writing than that in ME3.

I agree, the writing was bad... and Shepard may have some stuff to answer for too, however, in Shep's defense... He really didn't have a concept of time's passage. He was dead after all.

TeenZombie wrote...
... and it is acknowledged that joining Cerberus in ME2 was SO DUMB.

While I agree with having hesitations the WHOLE time I was working for Cerberus... the plotline really didn't allow for a second plotline to spin out of it until the end.
I did disagree with everything Cerberus was sending me to do. And only worked to subvert them in the end. I had even won the loyalty of Miranda who was so loyal to cerberus before.

So its for those reasons I hope Kaidan appologizes to me for ditching me even after I told him I was not working FOR Cerberus.
The Alliance had grown powerful because of Shepard's actions at the Battle of the Citadel, and even after saving the council they still only reluctantly gave Shepard spectre status to keep him away.
I went and saw the council before meeting Kaidan. But Kaidan was not told I was operating under spectre status.

There were just a lot of plot holes in that convo. I guess it had been pre-determined not to write him into the plot for whatever reason.

[Mann42]

TeenZombie wrote...

I really hope the game gives us a chance to acknowledge that not every player needs or wants their behind kissed by the Virmire Survivor.

While I do agree with this...

TeenZombie wrote...

Shepard did NOTHING to attempt to change their mind. 

Shepard had just saved half the colony's population and most of it's infrastructure single-handedly with his squad, doing exactly the same things he's always done. Action, and succeess, is how Shepard has always earned the trust of his followers. Thats why they follow him.

I realize that the VS has little reason to trust Cerberus at that moment, but when the VS also goes off and collaborates Shepard's story, it's pretty obvious they know (s)he's not running around with Cerberus to start new Rachnii breeding cells or perform thresher maw acid experiments on Alliance soldiers. 

The fact that the VS saw exactly what Shepard was doing with Cerberus and didn't give some benefit of the doubt, even if they wouldn't join up, is the part that bugs me. Yes, I'm sure shock was supposed to be a part of it, and Shepard's 'I keep forgetting I've been dead for 2 years' attitude didn't help, but it just didn't feel like it was even acknowledged that Shepard had just saved the colony from the Collectors, and is clearly not the threat.

Modifié par nexworks, 08 juin 2011 - 12:53 .

[ElitePinecone]

TeenZombie wrote...
Shepard's brain dead responses were probably frustrating and annoying too, since it would seem like a REALLY big deal to apparently "switch sides", and Shepard brushes it off like it's nothing.

This is what annoyed me the most, players lacked the agency to express their opinion about Cerberus in this scene, and it really broke the immersion. 

Being unable to explain that "this is all temporary and I'm doing this reluctantly because there's no other option, I don't support Cerberus at all", and then brushing off the VS's objections to our Cerberus connections, was frustrating. 

Shepard got annoyed because the VS got annoyed because of something we didn't have the option of rejecting. It's forced and a little disappointing, especially for players with vehemently anti-Cerberus Shepards. 

[Beerfish]

Estelindis wrote...

If we slam Kaidan's response on Horizon as being badly written, let's at least admit that Shepard's was written awfully too. Really - Shep greets a former lover/friend who risked his life many times by Shep's side and has been through thick and thin with Shep... who mourned Shep after seeing the Normandy destroyed... and Shep says nothing deeper than a casual "How've you been?" It's woeful.

Agreed, that part of the game just did not feel right at all.

[Kadzin]

Thompson family wrote...

I wonder what kind of ******-ant apology

etc.

"Guess I was right about Cerberus, huh?"

Shepards "sick-burn" meter takes a critical hit.

[Someone With Mass]

Misspelled "Kaidan" by the way.

[PrinceLionheart]

Spectre_907 wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

How is VS refusal not logical though? As Alliance Solders they, rightfully, judge Cerberus based off of their past terrorist encounters.

As do the Migrant Fleet, evidenced by the quarians' reaction to you during Tali's trial and Tali's questioning of your judgment after Haestrom. Both Tali and the VS are in the same position and risk committing treason by joining Shepard. Tali decides to join while the VS does not. Thus Tali is more loyal to Shepard than the VS. This would be fine and consistent however the VS has already demonstrated a loyalty to Shepard over the Alliance in the first game with the attempted mutiny. The VS deciding not to join you on Horizon because of the same reason is not consistent with his/her previous actions and thus not logical.

Key difference is the Admiralty Board actually sends an email giving Tali permission to work alongside Cerberus. Just like with the Trial, I bet Tali would have returned to the fleet if they gave her a "Cease and Desist" over running off with Shepard.

Also unlike the first game VS had been locked out of the loop until the Horizon encounter. Their disbelief of Shepard was rooted to their dislike of suspiscions of Cerberus not their lack of loyalty to Shepard. As I said, if they weren't loyal to Shepard they would have bothered to report back to the Council and actualyl back up Shepard's side of the story.

[PrinceLionheart]

nexworks wrote...

The fact that the VS saw exactly what Shepard was doing with Cerberus and didn't give some benefit of the doubt, even if they wouldn't join up, is the part that bugs me. Yes, I'm sure shock was supposed to be a part of it, and Shepard's 'I keep forgetting I've been dead for 2 years' attitude didn't help, but it just didn't feel like it was even acknowledged that Shepard had just saved the colony from the Collectors, and is clearly not the threat.

If you go talk to Anderson after Horizon he states that Ashley/Kaidan actually reports back to the council confiring everything Shep told them. What happened on Horizon was an emotional outburst, and after thinking it oer they did side with Shep.They just didn't go running off with Shep because the Devs decided they wanted to save VS and Liara for the third game.

[ElitePinecone]

PrinceLionheart wrote...
If you go talk to Anderson after Horizon he states that Ashley/Kaidan actually reports back to the council confiring everything Shep told them. What happened on Horizon was an emotional outburst, and after thinking it oer they did side with Shep.

I didn't know this... puts things in something of a new light. 

I'm actually more interested in the characters now because of their chequered history with Shepard, rather than any inherent 'personal issues' (Kaidan's biotics or Ashley's family history). 

There are all sorts of relationship dynamics that could be explored in ME3, given that Shepard and the VS have been reunited after a spat in ME2 and a close relationship in ME. 

[syllogi]

nexworks wrote...
The fact that the VS saw exactly what Shepard was doing with Cerberus and didn't give some benefit of the doubt, even if they wouldn't join up, is the part that bugs me. Yes, I'm sure shock was supposed to be a part of it, and Shepard's 'I keep forgetting I've been dead for 2 years' attitude didn't help, but it just didn't feel like it was even acknowledged that Shepard had just saved the colony from the Collectors, and is clearly not the threat.

No, the VS did not know what Shepard was doing with Cerberus.  The VS woke up, saw the ship leaving, and then walked over to Delan and Shepard.  When did the VS have the chance to get *any* other information than knowing that bad aliens had kidnapped half the colony, and now they are gone?

Cerberus has orchestrated a thresher maw attack on Alliance miltary, kidnapped one of those personnel to experiment on them and torture them, deliberately turned a human colony into husks, experimented on Rachni and accidently unleashed them on the Alliance, has attempted a terrorist attack on the Migrant Fleet...and this is just the stuff they've done that the VS would know about.

There is absolutely NO reason for Kaidan or Ashley to trust Cerberus, or any of its agents.  Shepard did nothing to show that he/she was not brainwashed or lied to, and it makes sense for the VS to believe that Cerberus was on Horizon to harm the colonists...that is their MO, up to that point.

Sorry folks who want to believe that Shepard is some perfect hero; Shepard is a moron in ME2, who willingly worked for even bigger, psychotic morons.  You cannot blame the only characters to notice that fact for reacting realistically.

[Estelindis]

TeenZombie wrote...

Sorry folks who want to believe that Shepard is some perfect hero; Shepard is a moron in ME2, who willingly worked for even bigger, psychotic morons.  You cannot blame the only characters to notice that fact for reacting realistically.

The thing about this, Teen, is that regardless of all the excellent points you make, working with Cerberus ultimately helped Shepard to stop the Collectors.  We don't know whether working with the Council and/or the Alliance would have done so.  I like to think so, certainly (and wish it could have been an option in a true branching narrative, a bit like the faction system in the Witcher games), but I can't say for certain.  Given that Cerberus has already brought Shepard back, and the Alliance has every right to be cautious towards Cerberus, Shepard might have had to spend some time jumping through hoops before the Alliance would trust her again, and in that time many thousands more people might have been lost.  As for the Council, they don't even believe in the Reaper threat.

I am a huge critic of Cerberus, as they cause (or are complicit in) many of the problems that Shepard has to solve in ME2.  But working with them in ME2 may have been the lesser of many evils for Shepard.

Backing you up in some respects, though, I never understood why seeing husks on Horizon was supposed to be definitive evidence that the Collectors were working for the Reapers.  There were also husks in Cerberus bases in ME1.  As far as Shep on Horizon is concerned, it was theoretically possible that Cerberus learned to control husks in the two years while Shepard was gone.  When Kaidan says that Cerberus could be working with the Collectors and/or the Reapers, the evidence isn't actually against him.

Modifié par Estelindis, 08 juin 2011 - 04:41 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

I think Ash will give that line to OP. I really can't fully forgive them sense they called me a traitor and I;d like to bring that little spot up. So you're sorry yet I'm a traitor to you? That makes me mad worst of all I was forced to work for Cerberus sense BW wouldn't let me ask anyone for help out of the situation. There was also the chip potential and of course I'm on a ship full of spies, cameras, and bugs so I couldn't call for help even on my own ship!

I was being held against my will and forced to do what Cerberus said sense there was no way out other then bringing on board the alien crewmen to see if perhapse they could help but even if they did decide to take over the ship they were outnumbered.

[Teecat]

I bet Kaidan wouldn't have been as mad, had shepard bothered to learn how to send emails on his/her private terminal...

[Estelindis]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

I was forced to work for Cerberus sense BW wouldn't let me ask anyone for help out of the situation. 

Don't you see that this knife cuts both ways?  If it's not Shepard's fault that she could act no other way due to Bioware writing her into that situation, then some bad writing on Kaidan's part can't be his fault either.

I think the best way to look at this is that both Shepard and Kaidan were in unenviable situations and didn't say and do the best possible things, but ultimately want to save the galaxy and have some care and respect for each other.  With good will, they can work through any difficulties.  If some people's Shepards don't want to, though, that's their choice.

Teecat wrote...

I bet Kaidan wouldn't have been as mad, had shepard bothered to learn how to send emails on his/her private terminal...

Hah - too true.  There are so many things that fans of Kaidan's character would have liked to be able to do differently (e.g. ask Anderson to tell Kaidan about Shepard's return when Anderson says Kaidan is off the radar, or send a message to his email account), but Bioware didn't let us.  The thing is, this is neither our nor Kaidan's fault - just bad writing. 

On the other hand, some may say that it's good writing to heighten tension over time, which then leads to a more dramatically-satisfying resolution, but I wish Bioware had heightened that tension in a more logically-consistant fashion.

Modifié par Estelindis, 08 juin 2011 - 05:20 .