"Look, Kaidan, I know you had orders to follow, and given the circumstances I understand you questioning my decisions and even my sanity, but...
Don't ever question my loyalty again."
(What my Shepard would like to say)
Kaiden... hmm
Débuté par
Erudius
, juin 07 2011 05:36
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#127
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 11:49
Sylvianus
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Don't ever question my loyalty again.
Kaidan said he trusts you, but not Cerberus, which could manipulate you. What has been the case in some way if you 're renegade.. But I agree, I would like to say the same.
Kaidan said he trusts you, but not Cerberus, which could manipulate you. What has been the case in some way if you 're renegade.. But I agree, I would like to say the same.
Modifié par Sylvianus, 09 juin 2011 - 11:50 .
#128
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 02:08
Ryzaki
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TeenZombie wrote...
Although I think you're right about Kaidan's relationship with a MShep (both in ME1 and 2), that doesn't mean he shouldn't be shocked and appalled by Shepard working for Cerberus, in that five minute scene.
I still don't get these reactions to Horizon, especially considering that Cerberus will be our enemy again in ME3. My respect for Tali and Garrus went way down in ME2 when I realized that they had nothing more to say about Shepard's decision to join this bizzarely evil terrorist organization. Tali especially disappointed me. I honestly have no excitement for seeing them in ME3 now, even though I don't hate the characters. They're mostly just there for fan service after ME1, and that's not interesting to me. Maybe the writing will be better this time around, but if they're there to tell Shepard how great he/she is, meh.
Oh yes. How terrible of Shepard to work with the only organization willing to help him stop the Collectors and believe him about the Reapers. If anyone knows the kind of BS the Council/Alliance will say to coldstone Shepard Kaidan should know since he was there for the first round.
Because they're indocrtrinated. They didn't just go "hurr hurr time to betray Shepard hurr durr." As for bizzarey evil again that's a matter of perspective. I don't find them evil as much as incompetent. And frankly if Ash/Kaidan are there to ninjamance me or ignore me all again I really could do without them. ME1 to me did do better in the main plot but characterization wise blows ME1 out of the water.As for telling Shepard how great he/she is...I got that with Tali. Notso much with Garrus. But frankly that's preferable to Ash/Kaidan deciding SHepard betrayed them before he/she opens his/her mouth. Makes it only worse that they actually see what Shepard's trying to stop before they start the mudslinging.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 02:08 .
#129
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 02:18
syllogi
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Ryzaki wrote...
TeenZombie wrote...
Although I think you're right about Kaidan's relationship with a MShep (both in ME1 and 2), that doesn't mean he shouldn't be shocked and appalled by Shepard working for Cerberus, in that five minute scene.
I still don't get these reactions to Horizon, especially considering that Cerberus will be our enemy again in ME3. My respect for Tali and Garrus went way down in ME2 when I realized that they had nothing more to say about Shepard's decision to join this bizzarely evil terrorist organization. Tali especially disappointed me. I honestly have no excitement for seeing them in ME3 now, even though I don't hate the characters. They're mostly just there for fan service after ME1, and that's not interesting to me. Maybe the writing will be better this time around, but if they're there to tell Shepard how great he/she is, meh.
Oh yes. How terrible of Shepard to work with the only organization willing to help him stop the Collectors and believe him about the Reapers. If anyone knows the kind of BS the Council/Alliance will say to coldstone Shepard Kaidan should know since he was there for the first round.
Because they're indocrtrinated. They didn't just go "hurr hurr time to betray Shepard hurr durr." As for bizzarey evil again that's a matter of perspective. I don't find them evil as much as incompetent. And frankly if Ash/Kaidan are there to ninjamance me or ignore me all again I really could do without them. ME1 to me did do better in the main plot but characterization wise blows ME1 out of the water.As for telling Shepard how great he/she is...I got that with Tali. Notso much with Garrus. But frankly that's preferable to Ash/Kaidan deciding SHepard betrayed them before he/she opens his/her mouth. Makes it only worse that they actually see what Shepard's trying to stop before they start the mudslinging.
We don't know the full extent of the plot in ME3 yet. Excusing Cerberus for becoming indoctrinated (if they are, and if TIM didn't deliberately let his minions become indoctrinated), is kind of like saying a known serial killer who did a good deed once should be excused for their future crimes because of mental illness. They STILL committed those past atrocities.
Seriously, have you people even read Cerberus's wiki page, if you don't believe those of us who have listed their crimes again and again?
And as for the first part, it is terrible writing that Shepard at no point has the chance to *try* to work with anyone but Cerberus. But, since Shepard is written as a moron, I will take that as canon.
And again, the Virmire Survivor does not have the information to know that Cerberus is trying to stop the Collectors. Just because Shepard, who is working for psychotic evil terrorists, says something briefly to that effect, doesn't mean that the character should act as stupid as everyone else around Shepard and take what he/she says at face value, in that FIVE MINUTE scene.
What is up with people willing to hand wave Cerberus's ridiculously stupid evil past, but can't get past a realistic moment of doubt from Kaidan or Ashley? If you just don't like the characters no matter what, fine, but don't blame them for being the one voice of reason in ME2.
#130
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 02:24
Ryzaki
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TeenZombie wrote...
We don't know the full extent of the plot in ME3 yet. Excusing Cerberus for becoming indoctrinated (if they are, and if TIM didn't deliberately let his minions become indoctrinated), is kind of like saying a known serial killer who did a good deed once should be excused for their future crimes because of mental illness. They STILL committed those past atrocities.
Didn't say they didn't. What I was arguing however was the fact that they "betrayed" Shepard of their own free will. There's a good chance...that's not the case at all.
Seriously, have you people even read Cerberus's wiki page, if you don't believe those of us who have listed their crimes again and again?
Yes I know full well Cerberus' crimes. I however dislike the word "evil" because people sling it around so much it's become practically meaningless (and synomous with "harsh things I don't like.")
And as for the first part, it is terrible writing that Shepard at no point has the chance to *try* to work with anyone but Cerberus. But, since Shepard is written as a moron, I will take that as canon.
And again, the Virmire Survivor does not have the information to know that Cerberus is trying to stop the Collectors. Just because Shepard, who is working for psychotic evil terrorists, says something briefly to that effect, doesn't mean that the character should act as stupid as everyone else around Shepard and take what he/she says at face value, in that FIVE MINUTE scene.
Shepard can flat out say what Cerberus is trying to do himself (someone already posted the transcript in this thread) te VS still goes off. And oh my Shepard's now a complete idiot? I guess the VS is obviously so much more intelligent than Shepard (and potentially Garrus!) that they obviously know better than Shepard. Right. Not helping my respect of the VS go up in that scenario. They're treating Shepard like a fool who doesn't know any better. "Oh you know Cerberus' history-!" No f***ing sh*t. I was the one cleaning up their messes in the first game while you stayed on the ship.
THEY WERE ATTACKED BY THE COLLECTORS. Why *wouldn't* they take Shep's word! It's not like they're sitting in a peaceful enviornment! They just saw with their own eyes what Shepard (and Cerberus) were trying to prevent!
What is up with people willing to hand wave Cerberus's ridiculously stupid evil past, but can't get past a realistic moment of doubt from Kaidan or Ashley? If you just don't like the characters no matter what, fine, but don't blame them for being the one voice of reason in ME2.
Who the hell said I was handwaving Cerberus' past? I know damn well they were morally grey idiots who barely got anything right. However voice of reason? No. If Kaidan/Ash had listened to Shepard out completely and then said "I'm not sure what to think of this Shepard." instead of devolving into hysterics then I might've called them voices of reasons. They didn't.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 juin 2011 - 02:28 .
#131
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 03:08
syllogi
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Okay, first off, I'm just going to say that I'm not trying to make you "like" the Virmire Survivor, Ryzaki. I'm not really sure if you're trolling right now, with some of the hyperbole in your last post, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I have been a critic of the way Shepard was written in ME2 since the game came out, and Horizon was the only point where, as a player, I could relate to anyone's point of view in the game. After I finished the game, I had a more sympathetic view of Miranda, but other than her doubts and possible resignation from Cerberus, there is no acknowledgement of how odd it is that no one, even Jack, ever talks about how ridiculous it is to assume that Cerberus is the ONLY option when it comes to stopping the Collectors. Again, look at their wiki page. They fail at everything they attempt to do. Because they are Stupid Evil.
It does not make sense to throw in with incompetent bad guys, when Shepard has not even considered the option of going to the Systems Alliance and asking for help. And no, the scene with the Citadel Council is not sufficient. The Citadel Council specifically says that the missing colonists is a *human* matter -- and the Systems Alliance governs humans. I've heard the argument that the Alliance would not help because the colonies are outside of Citadel space, but having Kaidan/Ashley on Horizon at all shows that they did care, and as seen in ME1, the Systems Alliance has a history of allowing covert missions outside their own territory. Going to them, even if they were to shut Shepard down, would have gone a long way to convince me that the writers were at least trying to show Shepard as intelligent.
Once again, just because the Virmire Survivor was attacked by Collectors, doesn't mean they should automatically trust *anyone* working with an organization who has done things like purposely TURN HUMAN COLONIES INTO HUSKS, or set a trap to SIC THRESHER MAWS ON SYSTEM ALLIANCE SOLDIERS. That is not "morally grey".
Yeah, I really don't know why I'm replying to someone who just said that they dislike the word "evil" to describe an organization that addicted a man to drugs, made him raise a stolen autistic child, and forces him give her experimental drugs that worsen her autism symptoms. That's all *before* they kidnap this dude, kill his lover, and inject him with Reaper technology...just because.
Yeah, okay. If your opinion of the Virmire Survivor is colored by my interpretation of the plot of ME2 (which was dumb, and Shepard was dumb), then that's just your loss.
I have been a critic of the way Shepard was written in ME2 since the game came out, and Horizon was the only point where, as a player, I could relate to anyone's point of view in the game. After I finished the game, I had a more sympathetic view of Miranda, but other than her doubts and possible resignation from Cerberus, there is no acknowledgement of how odd it is that no one, even Jack, ever talks about how ridiculous it is to assume that Cerberus is the ONLY option when it comes to stopping the Collectors. Again, look at their wiki page. They fail at everything they attempt to do. Because they are Stupid Evil.
It does not make sense to throw in with incompetent bad guys, when Shepard has not even considered the option of going to the Systems Alliance and asking for help. And no, the scene with the Citadel Council is not sufficient. The Citadel Council specifically says that the missing colonists is a *human* matter -- and the Systems Alliance governs humans. I've heard the argument that the Alliance would not help because the colonies are outside of Citadel space, but having Kaidan/Ashley on Horizon at all shows that they did care, and as seen in ME1, the Systems Alliance has a history of allowing covert missions outside their own territory. Going to them, even if they were to shut Shepard down, would have gone a long way to convince me that the writers were at least trying to show Shepard as intelligent.
Once again, just because the Virmire Survivor was attacked by Collectors, doesn't mean they should automatically trust *anyone* working with an organization who has done things like purposely TURN HUMAN COLONIES INTO HUSKS, or set a trap to SIC THRESHER MAWS ON SYSTEM ALLIANCE SOLDIERS. That is not "morally grey".
Yeah, I really don't know why I'm replying to someone who just said that they dislike the word "evil" to describe an organization that addicted a man to drugs, made him raise a stolen autistic child, and forces him give her experimental drugs that worsen her autism symptoms. That's all *before* they kidnap this dude, kill his lover, and inject him with Reaper technology...just because.
Yeah, okay. If your opinion of the Virmire Survivor is colored by my interpretation of the plot of ME2 (which was dumb, and Shepard was dumb), then that's just your loss.
Modifié par TeenZombie, 09 juin 2011 - 03:11 .
#132
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 04:34
Renessa
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Unlike Garrus, Kaidan never hero-worships Shep (not even when he romances her) in ME. (And I think a lot of players did not like him for that)
He admires her, respects her immensely, I think, he might lust after her, but he always sees her as a human being, who is capable of making mistakes. He has his own opinions about how things should be done and he voices them: "Not cutting corners" etc.
When he takes part in the mutiny, he does not follow Shep's orders, he does so, because Kaidan believes, that the Alliance and mostly Udina are handling things badly ("You bastard! You sold us out!")
The night before Ilos, if you let your Shep express some self-doubt: "I keep reminding myself, we are doing the right thing. I don't believe me yet...", Kaidan replies: "Well, if I didn't think you were doing the right thing, I wouldn't be here." And that sums up the Shep-Kaidan relationship.
At Horizon, Kaidan does not believe Shep is doing the right thing. He does not know what Shep and the player know. He thinks, Cerberus have somehow conned Shep into working with them, that they are using Shep. He does not want any part in that. However, he actually does try to support Shep's position within the Alliance, once he reports back to Anderson.
Given the way Horizon was written, I don't see that much wrong with his (or Ashley's) reaction there and I sincerely hope they don't make the VS grovel for forgiveness in ME3. It would not fit with either character, Kaidan or Ashley.
Having said all that, my Renegon Shep would love to have a big row with him to clear the air, but mostly for making up afterwards. :innocent:
He admires her, respects her immensely, I think, he might lust after her, but he always sees her as a human being, who is capable of making mistakes. He has his own opinions about how things should be done and he voices them: "Not cutting corners" etc.
When he takes part in the mutiny, he does not follow Shep's orders, he does so, because Kaidan believes, that the Alliance and mostly Udina are handling things badly ("You bastard! You sold us out!")
The night before Ilos, if you let your Shep express some self-doubt: "I keep reminding myself, we are doing the right thing. I don't believe me yet...", Kaidan replies: "Well, if I didn't think you were doing the right thing, I wouldn't be here." And that sums up the Shep-Kaidan relationship.
At Horizon, Kaidan does not believe Shep is doing the right thing. He does not know what Shep and the player know. He thinks, Cerberus have somehow conned Shep into working with them, that they are using Shep. He does not want any part in that. However, he actually does try to support Shep's position within the Alliance, once he reports back to Anderson.
Given the way Horizon was written, I don't see that much wrong with his (or Ashley's) reaction there and I sincerely hope they don't make the VS grovel for forgiveness in ME3. It would not fit with either character, Kaidan or Ashley.
Having said all that, my Renegon Shep would love to have a big row with him to clear the air, but mostly for making up afterwards. :innocent:
#134
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 09:39
Medhia Nox
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I'll actually be annoyed if Cerberus is indoctrinated - because it'll be Anders all over again (Oh, Anders isn't evil - he's possessed! Poor Anders!) Sloppy...
====
Look - Kaiden/Ashley just watched an entire colony they were trying to protect get wiped out. They were powerless to stop it...
Then - Shepard returns with Cerberus at his side.
Shepard already knew Kaiden/Ashley was on Horizon. It wasn't some shock - plus, Shepard was exactly the same as the moment the original Normandy blew up. No real time had passed for him... for Kaiden/Ashley - two years. Sorry - but a lot can change in two years.
Not to mention how illogical and outraged "I" was that Shepard was serving Cerberus. Honestly - Kaiden was my voice on Horizon.
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You people must be masters of self-control that never react poorly to high stress situations. I'd love to pick apart your lives for these kinds of moments.
Of course - it "could" just be bad writing, but it's a game - not a novel. Give it a break as far as the writing goes. There's only so much space that can be devoted to ever single scenario (personally - I think more should have gone into it - but that's just opinion)
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Look - Kaiden/Ashley just watched an entire colony they were trying to protect get wiped out. They were powerless to stop it...
Then - Shepard returns with Cerberus at his side.
Shepard already knew Kaiden/Ashley was on Horizon. It wasn't some shock - plus, Shepard was exactly the same as the moment the original Normandy blew up. No real time had passed for him... for Kaiden/Ashley - two years. Sorry - but a lot can change in two years.
Not to mention how illogical and outraged "I" was that Shepard was serving Cerberus. Honestly - Kaiden was my voice on Horizon.
====
You people must be masters of self-control that never react poorly to high stress situations. I'd love to pick apart your lives for these kinds of moments.
Of course - it "could" just be bad writing, but it's a game - not a novel. Give it a break as far as the writing goes. There's only so much space that can be devoted to ever single scenario (personally - I think more should have gone into it - but that's just opinion)
#135
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 09:44
Bluko
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Rick Singh wrote...
I wonder what kind of ******-ant appology the little arse has to give me for the way he left me in ME2.
Probably something along the lines of "I was just following orders."
Shepard:"So... about Horizon Kaidan."
Kaidan:"JOKER IS WAITING FOR YOU ON THE BRIDGE."
#136
Posté 09 juin 2011 - 09:50
GreedIgnored
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Agreed. I love punching people... though I do like Kaiden. But I do wanna punch him.MissMaster wrote...
I hope you can punch him in the face.
Oh Bioware makes me wish Shepard punched everybody...
#137
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:20
Erudius
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TeenZombie wrote...
My respect for Tali and Garrus went way down in ME2 when I realized that they had nothing more to say about Shepard's decision to join this bizzarely evil terrorist organization. Tali especially disappointed me.
My Tali was all a dither to be around my Shepard, "oh ... wow ... is it hot in here?"
#138
Posté 10 juin 2011 - 03:31
Ryzaki
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TeenZombie wrote... stuff
Why do I have to be trolling because Ihave a different opinon? Did I say you were trolling?
And you liking it is just fine. I don't. Trying to say I'mwrong (or me doing that to you is ridculous). We have different views on the scene. Whoopeedoo. I hope your Shepard can have their little heart to heart and "dude you were totally right on Horizon." chat. I just don't want to be railroaded into being buddy buddy with Kaidan (with whom my Shepard wasn't friends with in the first place). As long as I'm not going all "the good old days!" with him I'm fine. It's not like he'll have anything important to say to my Shepard based off ME1. And frankly Cerberus was retconed beyond belief in ME2.
And yes I dislike the usage of evil to condemn a whole organization that has different cells that mayhave different goals. It would be like calling the alliance evil for (in my mind) leading to the creation of Cerberus [they started from somewhere]. But since you want to get nasty I'll just leave it here.
Ra forbid someone see something differently. But frankly I'm ending this here. This discussion is pointless and I don't know why I took the bait. You want to rant about how much you hate about ME2's storyline I don't need or want to be involved.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 juin 2011 - 03:48 .
#139
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 10:15
Pnygaard
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omgahh how could i not wirte him .. uhmmm dayum kinda hard wirthing emails when ur dead .. pffft he gotta work hard to get this lady back ... not tha other way around lmao!!
#140
Posté 21 juin 2011 - 10:56
The Twilight God
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You're playing LotSB and you are on his ship hull. You make your way across the outside to that door that Liara has to hack. The door opens and Kaidan comes waltzing out with a group a SB mercs.
Kaidan: Yo, Shepard! What's up. Been awhile, bro!!
Shepard: Are you ****g cereal??
Kaidan: Tela Vasir wasn't working for the SB. He wasn't the one who ordered the hit on T'soni. He wasn't the one who tried to get your body.
Shep: Wait... So let's get this straight. You're working for the SB?
Kaidan: Yeah, he's the only guy...
Shep: STOP! Liara, you're sure this guy is the guy that did all that bad stuff, right?
Liara: Yes. He is working with the Collectors. He has to have Feron doing goddess knows what to him for 2 years!!! He was going to sell you and a galaxy out for his own personal gain.
Shepard: ....well, maybe you were wrong. If Kaidan says it's all good it's all good.
Kaidan: So are you going to join team SB?
Shepard: Sure. Why not? Sign me up.
I don't see players reacting this way. Do you?
I too thought the VS came off as pigheaded and stupid. But that's because I know everything and have had time to absorb everything. We don't even know why the Alliance thought Cerberus was involved. Maybe there was a reason for the VS to be reluctant to simply accept.
Kaidan: Yo, Shepard! What's up. Been awhile, bro!!
Shepard: Are you ****g cereal??
Kaidan: Tela Vasir wasn't working for the SB. He wasn't the one who ordered the hit on T'soni. He wasn't the one who tried to get your body.
Shep: Wait... So let's get this straight. You're working for the SB?
Kaidan: Yeah, he's the only guy...
Shep: STOP! Liara, you're sure this guy is the guy that did all that bad stuff, right?
Liara: Yes. He is working with the Collectors. He has to have Feron doing goddess knows what to him for 2 years!!! He was going to sell you and a galaxy out for his own personal gain.
Shepard: ....well, maybe you were wrong. If Kaidan says it's all good it's all good.
Kaidan: So are you going to join team SB?
Shepard: Sure. Why not? Sign me up.
I don't see players reacting this way. Do you?
I too thought the VS came off as pigheaded and stupid. But that's because I know everything and have had time to absorb everything. We don't even know why the Alliance thought Cerberus was involved. Maybe there was a reason for the VS to be reluctant to simply accept.
Modifié par The Twilight God, 22 juin 2011 - 01:55 .
#141
Posté 22 juin 2011 - 04:58
Made Nightwing
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^This. So. Much. This. Just because someone says something doesn't mean that it's true. I hasten to remind everyone that humans lie.
