198 réponses à ce sujet

[Legbiter]

Action packed is actually good. Both of the previous games were "action packed".

It's just that a large percentage of the "fans" on this forum are completely & totally insane and/or a teenager. That part of the fandom will see a short trailer of Earth getting curbstomped and just go nuts with peripheral obsessions or drag up previous hobbyhorses to beat to death again.

All delivered of course, in the most obnoxious self-entitled way. A shotgun suicide would be an upgrade for most of them, judging by the language and the concerns that apparently most haunt them.

Modifié par Legbiter, 08 juin 2011 - 04:03 .

[AlanC9]

Gatt9 wrote...

And that's the problem, I think: we're ultimately talking different languages entirely. To most people on these forums, "RPG" is synonymous with being able to make dialogue choices, or exploring. To me, that may be part of it, but the larger part is being to able to create a character whose skills and abilities are not dependent on my own. Whether or not my Shepard has quick reflexes shouldn't depend solely on whether or not I have quick reflexes, in the same way that I should be able to play Shepard as a villain without having to personally go out and torture small woodland creatures. The fact that we're dealing with a hybrid game muddies the water somewhat, but the emphasis of "action" thus far gives me little faith that BioWare sees "RPG elements" as anything other than window dressing, mostly if not wholly removed from the combat mechanics of the game.

That's one of the bigger problems here and elsewhere,  apparently there's a fairly significant number of people who think Dialogue = RPG.  Then it devolves into massive confusion where these people think self-insertion = Roleplaying. 

It's really bad.  To most here,  a Roleplaying game is where your Shepherd is You,  and it's an RPG because you talked to people. 

Trying to explain what Roleplaying is just gets you labelled as a terrible person here though,  I wouldn't recommend it.  Seriously,  I've posted what you just said a dozen times,  and I can't even comment on a completely different topic without people jumping on me screaming I'm elitist...even when I'm pretty much supporting the original premise.

Hey, it's not that you're a terrible person. It's just that you sometimes push terrible ideas.

Your definition of RPG isn't a bad idea in itself, but thinking that definition matters isn't sensible. People don't like particular games because they fit into the box labeled "RPG." They like or don't like particular games, and then decide whether they like "RPG"s based on whether or not they've liked the games that have been labelled "RPG."

Let's say everyone agreed that RPG combat shouldn't be based on the player's reflexes. Would ME2 fans like ME2 less, or would they like RPGs less?

[Massadonious1]

Oh good, we're back to trying to define what is or isn't an "RPG" and trying to pigenhole the features of a BioWare game into that specific genre.

The circle of life continues.

[Legbiter]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Oh good, we're back to trying to define what is or isn't an "RPG" and trying to pigenhole the features of a BioWare game into that specific genre.

The circle of life continues.

The battle is most iconic when it's between those who actually enjoyed sifting through the ME 1 tsunami of crap weapons, armor, and upgrades to maybe find that one Bear Ass VI+ to replace Bear Ass VI. and those who didn't.

AKA: The RPG as an inventory management system with a story tacked on vs. the story first RPG folks.

[AlanC9]

I think it's Wildfire Darkstar's fault this time, FWIW.

[Jarrett Lee]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

i meen....every trilogy works that way. lord of the rings retrun of the king was the last of the 3, and it was the most action packed, and won 11 oscars. the bourne ultimatum was the best of the bourne trilogy but it was the most action packed. and return of the jedi was the most action packed of the original star wars trilogy and while not as good as empire strikes back it was still very good.

serosuly its THE FINAL BATTLE OF COURSE ITS GONNA BE ACTION PACKED. but there will be rpg elements, bioware cant just tell us everything all at once ya know, it takes time. besides theres still character development, dialouge choices, diffrent ways for the game to play out. i think its shapeing up to be the best of the 3
do any of you agree

You raise a good question  I recently completed an ME2 playthrough as a Vanguard and it was some of the best shooter/action combat I've encountered, but at the same time it was so amazing to reach the end with such complex relationships with the characters (I love Samara!!) and to watch some die based on my choices (I lost Tali

The action took nothing away from the experience, it was an integral part of it.

[casedawgz]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

i meen....every trilogy works that way. lord of the rings retrun of the king was the last of the 3, and it was the most action packed, and won 11 oscars. the bourne ultimatum was the best of the bourne trilogy but it was the most action packed. and return of the jedi was the most action packed of the original star wars trilogy and while not as good as empire strikes back it was still very good.

serosuly its THE FINAL BATTLE OF COURSE ITS GONNA BE ACTION PACKED. but there will be rpg elements, bioware cant just tell us everything all at once ya know, it takes time. besides theres still character development, dialouge choices, diffrent ways for the game to play out. i think its shapeing up to be the best of the 3
do any of you agree

I agree with everything but the bit about Bourne Ultimatum. Nothing tops Identity.

[InfiniteCuts]

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

i meen....every trilogy works that way. lord of the rings retrun of the king was the last of the 3, and it was the most action packed, and won 11 oscars. the bourne ultimatum was the best of the bourne trilogy

That is where I stopped...

[casedawgz]

InfiniteCuts wrote...

UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

i meen....every trilogy works that way. lord of the rings retrun of the king was the last of the 3, and it was the most action packed, and won 11 oscars. the bourne ultimatum was the best of the bourne trilogy

That is where I stopped...

I know, right? Identity, all the way.

[TaHol]

ME's combine my two favorites: shooting and role-playing. And they do it well. I have all trust in ME3, and as far as I'm conserned, they can stuff it full with action and I don't mind. This is the ending of the trilogy, and Shepard is in the middle of Galagtic war. I don't expect him to write e-mails to partisipants and try to get them to negotiate.

[Terror_K]

The problem isn't so much that it's action-packed, but the way it goes about it. The execution and style of it basically. It's just too fast-paced and "rule of cool" the way its done. It just screams that it's trying to hard to be "teh awesomez badass!!1" and that it's trying to be too mainstream and over-the-top. You can be action-packed without coming across like an interactive Michael Bay movie through good pacing, execution and maturity.

[lazuli]

New forum drinking game:

Take a shot every time someone mentions Michael Bay.

[casedawgz]

Terror_K wrote...

The problem isn't so much that it's action-packed, but the way it goes about it. The execution and style of it basically. It's just too fast-paced and "rule of cool" the way its done. It just screams that it's trying to hard to be "teh awesomez badass!!1" and that it's trying to be too mainstream and over-the-top. You can be action-packed without coming across like an interactive Michael Bay movie through good pacing, execution and maturity.

At the same time, when the crux of the plot involves giant space Cthulhus laying waste to Earth, there needs to be a bit of the Michael Bay spectacle. You can't really have giant space Cthulhus laying waste to Earth in an unspectacular way.


Edit: Lazuli, have another shot.

Modifié par casedawgz, 08 juin 2011 - 04:40 .

[In Exile]

[quote]Wildfire Darkstar wrote...
The question was, how similar? I loved ME1, after all, so I hold out/held out hope that ME3 might be tweaked enough to recapture some, if not all, of my interest. If the series could be altered before, there's no reason it couldn't be altered again, technically speaking.
[/quote]

Well, what did you like about ME1? Mako or Mako-equivalent is very likely out. The shooter combat & mechanics of ME2 is in (and if the screenshots are any indication - I avoid videos due to potential spoilers - it's even more of a GoW cover shooter) and being expanded. There's very little chance armour/inventory will be handled like ME1.

Essentially, the odds are poor to say the least that gameplay will resemble ME1. So what's left that could change for you?

[quote]Fallout: New Vegas was made using the Gamebryo engine. That engine was indeed used for both Fallout 3 and Oblivion, but it has also been used for Drift City (a racing game) and Epic Mickey (a platformer). Meanwhile, Dragon Age 2 used functionally the same engine as Dragon Age: Origins (the Lycium engine, which is simply a new name slapped on the Eclipse engine used for DA:O) and makes a number of major changes to the gameplay mechanics.
[/quote]

DA2 is all show. They changed the combat animations and they're faster, but under the hood the game is identical. They added a click-to-attack button on consoles, but that actually change the way the combat is done in a significant way. If anything, DA2 is a sign that you can't really change the combat at all in that short span of time.

My general point was that there are RPGs that sell well. They just take a lot of dev. time, and that's not EA's mdus operandi.


Heck, even Mass Effect 2 used the same engine (Unreal Engine 3) as the original Mass Effect, so clearly a game's play style isn't solely defined by the engine.

BioWare/EA's short development cycle may or may not be a major factor in overall quality concerns, but I don't buy the argument that such a cycle precludes the inclusion of role-playing combat mechanics. The usual argument as to why RPGs take longer to develop than action games concerns aesthetic issues: creating artwork for a variety of different environments, plotting, dialogue, voice acting, etc. The exact sort of things which I'm arguing are not the be-all and end-all of the RPG experience. A decent tactical combat system that includes some element of randomization/dice rolls and doesn't solely rely on precision reflexes is not inherently any more time or resource consuming than a Gears of War-style cover shooter combat systems. That decision was almost certainly a deliberate one, not one forced on the team by their dev cycle.

[/quote]

[stu117]

Terror_K wrote...

The problem isn't so much that it's action-packed, but the way it goes about it. The execution and style of it basically. It's just too fast-paced and "rule of cool" the way its done. It just screams that it's trying to hard to be "teh awesomez badass!!1" and that it's trying to be too mainstream and over-the-top. You can be action-packed without coming across like an interactive Michael Bay movie through good pacing, execution and maturity.

since when is being badass a bad thing?

[HogarthHughes 3]

Terror_K wrote...

The problem isn't so much that it's action-packed, but the way it goes about it. The execution and style of it basically. It's just too fast-paced and "rule of cool" the way its done. It just screams that it's trying to hard to be "teh awesomez badass!!1" and that it's trying to be too mainstream and over-the-top. You can be action-packed without coming across like an interactive Michael Bay movie through good pacing, execution and maturity.

Much of Mass Effect is pretty ridiculous and over-the-top already, I don't think a bit of "teh awesomez badass!!1" will bring it down.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 08 juin 2011 - 04:44 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Dave666 wrote...

 The problem I have with the whole action, action action mentality is that in some cases it detracts from one of the main points of RPG's.

What I mean by this is, lets take ME:1 as an example.  In ME:1 there were many instances where if you picked the right dialog option it was possible to solve a potentally volatile situation with words and avoid a gunfight at all.  A good example of this is UNC: Major Kyle where if you wanted to you could just go in guns blazing and kill everyone, or you could talk him into going in peacefully.  Or what about Citadel: Doctor Michel? Or UNC: Hostile Takeover?  How about UNC: The Negotiation? Or UNC: Hostage?

In ME:2 can anyone name me a single instance where it was possible to do this?

Bioware just went with a short cut and introduced the Morality Interrupts.

[RowanCF]

ME has never been an action oriented game, it's been about the story and characters and the universe. So that's why I hope they didn't spend too much time on just trying to upgrade combat and not focusing so much on the previously listed elements. 

[Ricinator]

RowanCF wrote...

ME has never been an action oriented game, it's been about the story and characters and the universe. So that's why I hope they didn't spend too much time on just trying to upgrade combat and not focusing so much on the previously listed elements. 

unfortunatly they did that in ME2 and probably a lot more in ME3

[jakal66]

Perhaps I want my sheppard to be more like a Marine...not Rambo...To be a badass doesnt mean you have to be like duke(all my respect to the dukemeister)

[PrinceLionheart]

Personally, I just want Bioware to take their time with their mission designs like they did for the first Mass Effect and Dragon Age. My biggest complaint for ME2 was the fact that the missions themselves were too linear. For instance, in the first Mass Effect, there were multiple ways to get into the Garage on Noveria; you could help out Parasini, sell out the Hanar shop keeper, etc. Everything in ME2 was straight forward, "Go here and shoot" and I hated that.

That is my main fear.

[Iakus]

casedawgz wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

The problem isn't so much that it's action-packed, but the way it goes about it. The execution and style of it basically. It's just too fast-paced and "rule of cool" the way its done. It just screams that it's trying to hard to be "teh awesomez badass!!1" and that it's trying to be too mainstream and over-the-top. You can be action-packed without coming across like an interactive Michael Bay movie through good pacing, execution and maturity.

At the same time, when the crux of the plot involves giant space Cthulhus laying waste to Earth, there needs to be a bit of the Michael Bay spectacle. You can't really have giant space Cthulhus laying waste to Earth in an unspectacular way.


Edit: Lazuli, have another shot.

Indeed there does. and there's nothing wrong with that.  When it's appropriate.  But when there's action and gunfire and explosions for no other reason than to have action, gunfire and explosions, when you have to stop and think "Why am I here again?"  or "what's the point of this mission?" then action has totally subsumed the plot. The action, in fact becomes the plot.  This is a bad thing.  

[HogarthHughes 3]

RowanCF wrote...

ME has never been an action oriented game, it's been about the story and characters and the universe. So that's why I hope they didn't spend too much time on just trying to upgrade combat and not focusing so much on the previously listed elements. 

Yet the majority of game time is combat and exploration (unless played on a fairly easy difficulty).  Character interaction/development and entertaining combat/exploration are integral to ME's success.

[Massadonious1]

Will the space Chthulu's wait while I roll for initiative?

[RowanCF]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

RowanCF wrote...

ME has never been an action oriented game, it's been about the story and characters and the universe. So that's why I hope they didn't spend too much time on just trying to upgrade combat and not focusing so much on the previously listed elements. 

Yet the majority of game time is combat and exploration (unless played on a fairly easy difficulty).  Character interaction/development and entertaining combat/exploration are integral to ME's success.

It probably depends on how much you talk to people in the game, but yes, of course both elements are curcial. But I think you know what I meant. I just hope they didn't emphasise action too much and interaction too little.