479 réponses à ce sujet

[Archaven]

Zanallen wrote...

Archaven wrote...

@Romantiq
Wow the moon elves are so beautiful! Compared to DA2... it shows how lazy the developers were.

Those are modded Oblivion elves and still look exactly like humans with long ears (The very issue Bioware is attempting to address).

Can't believe my eyes.. Oblivion is an older game than DA2 no? Really surprised the modder community can come out with such beautiful piece of art. I'm just not sure about the performance about Oblivion with all the mods installed.

[MonkeyLungs]

Wulfram wrote...

Jaheira actually looks more Na'vi than DA2 elves, to me. Clearly Bioware started copying Avatar really early.

Don't tell lies or speak words of ill intention about Jaheira please.  

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

Those are modded Oblivion elves and still look exactly like humans with long ears (The very issue Bioware is attempting to address).

Considering it was modded in (meaning that's something people like enough to spend their time on, both to make and to download) maybe it's not actually an issue that needs to be addressed?

Just how many elf mods are out there that make elves look like something distinctly different from "human with pointy ears" out of curiosity?

Modifié par tmp7704, 09 juin 2011 - 03:19 .

[Zanallen]

tmp7704 wrote...

Considering it was modded in (meaning that's something people like enough to spend their time on, both to make and to download) maybe it's not actually an issue that needs to be addressed?

Just how many elf mods are out there that make elves look like something distinctly different from "human with pointy ears" out of curiosity?

It was modded into Oblivion, where all the character models were pretty horrendous regardless of race. It was near impossible to get a good looking character in that game. So it really has no bearing on the DA designs.

As to your second question, no idea. I don't mod games and so I don't look for mods. That being said, Bioware's stated intent is to diversify the races beyond various types of human. Especially when said differences are easily covered up with long hair.

[Well]

Well I have never seen Avatar.Don't really care what the Navi look like.I do think the DA 2 elves look like they haven't seen a good meal in along time.They kind of remind me of the beggars in BG 1.At least with them I could give a few coins to get something to eat.As far Oblivion elves,BG, or TW2 elves ...well they look much better.I am willing to donate some of my gold to set up a food bank in the Alienage.

[tmp7704]

Zanallen wrote...

It was modded into Oblivion, where all the character models were pretty horrendous regardless of race. It was near impossible to get a good looking character in that game. So it really has no bearing on the DA designs.

I meant the author of the mod still went with the idea "elf = pretty human with pointy ears" despite having full freedom in how they could shape the features instead. In other words, they didn't think the elves should look noticeably different and didn't see such idea as "issue".

That being said, Bioware's stated intent is to diversify the races beyond various types of human. Especially when said differences are easily covered up with long hair.

Yes, and i wonder if they aren't wasting time on trying to fix what simply isn't broken. Maybe that time could've been better spent say, bringing the dwarf girls back into the game?

[oldmansavage]

Maybe someone can help me out.  Why did they change elves in the first place?  Some say because they look too much like humans.  Well of course, they're elves.  So why even add elves if you don't like the way they look in the first place?  Its like adding a dragon in the game and saying you don't like how dragons have scales and wings and breathe fire. 

Cal them melves and put your stamp of originality on it.

[Wulfram]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Jaheira actually looks more Na'vi than DA2 elves, to me. Clearly Bioware started copying Avatar really early.

Don't tell lies or speak words of ill intention about Jaheira please.  

Jaheira was my first video game <3.  I would never speak ill of her.  But the high positioning of her ears is somewhat reminiscent of the Na'vi, to me.

[Zanallen]

tmp7704 wrote...

I meant the author of the mod still went with the idea "elf = pretty human with pointy ears" despite having full freedom in how they could shape the features instead. In other words, they didn't think the elves should look noticeably different and didn't see such idea as "issue".

Yes, and i wonder if they aren't wasting time on trying to fix what simply isn't broken. Maybe that time could've been better spent say, bringing the dwarf girls back into the game?

I assume they chose that design because it is the common design for elves. It is the "mainstream" design, if you will. It is what Tolkien used and it is what most anime use. And the author of that mod does seem to be influenced by an anime style. Regardless, Bioware did seem to believe the idea was an "issue" and so acted upon it. I don't believe it is our place to decide what is or isn't broken and what Bioware should spend resources on. I assume the charges of "generic fantasy" that were tossed around on the boards around DA:O's release had something to do with Bioware's decisions to alter the elves, qunari and darkspawn.

[Well]

oldmansavage wrote...

Maybe someone can help me out.  Why did they change elves in the first place?  Some say because they look too much like humans.  Well of course, they're elves.  So why even add elves if you don't like the way they look in the first place?  Its like adding a dragon in the game and saying you don't like how dragons have scales and wings and breathe fire. 

Cal them melves and put your stamp of originality on it.

I know.What I have read on Norse myth they do look like Humans.

[Satyricon331]

Zanallen wrote...
I don't believe it is our place to decide what is or isn't broken and what Bioware should spend resources on.

I don't think the criticisms of the elf design in DA2 are any less legitimate than your criticism of DAO's skills as "useless."

[oldmansavage]

Thats all well and fine but DA is generic fantasy.  It is what it is and changing it is only going to make it worse.  As a consumer I will take issue with ridiculous changes, personally.

[Zanallen]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
I don't believe it is our place to decide what is or isn't broken and what Bioware should spend resources on.

I don't think the criticisms of the elf design in DA2 are any less legitimate than your criticism of DAO's skills as "useless."

Criticism is fine. Saying that Bioware should spend its time doing other things is a little presumptuous. Also, interesting that you chose the topic where I suggest that Bioware bring back skills after cutting them.

You see, it works like this. I feel that the DA:O skills could have been revamped for more use. Bioware decided instead to cut them entirely. I don't begrudge them that fact and I don't think they should have done otherwise. It isn't my place to tell them how to do their jobs. However, I can ask for them to bring skills back while suggesting possible changes to make the system more worthwhile.

[TEWR]

So why should Bioware use what's been used many times over instead of making elves what they want them to look like in their game that takes place in a different universe?

[oldmansavage]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So why should Bioware use what's been used many times over instead of making elves what they want them to look like in their game that takes place in a different universe?

If they want to be so original then they need to drop elves and dwarves altogether and come up with their own race like the qunari, otherwise its just a hack job.

[Zanallen]

Well wrote...

I know.What I have read on Norse myth they do look like Humans.

Elves don't exist and their lore has been mixed and merged a ridiculous number of times over the centuries. Hell, the little tinkerers in Santa's workshop are also elves. Santa is no doubt more widely known than Norse mythology. Bioware should therefore make the elves like those in the workshop.

[Zanallen]

oldmansavage wrote...

Thats all well and fine but DA is generic fantasy.  It is what it is and changing it is only going to make it worse.  As a consumer I will take issue with ridiculous changes, personally.

The issue at hand being that Bioware doesn't want the DA franchise to be generic fantasy.

[TEWR]

oldmansavage wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So why should Bioware use what's been used many times over instead of making elves what they want them to look like in their game that takes place in a different universe?

If they want to be so original then they need to drop elves and dwarves altogether and come up with their own race like the qunari, otherwise its just a hack job.

Oh sure, and then the forums will fill to bursting with people who are upset that elves and dwarves are gone. They'd be saying that it is now the new Mass Effect set in a fantasy world. 

Apparently elves and dwarves automatically make something "generic fantasy"?

[oldmansavage]

Zanallen wrote...

oldmansavage wrote...

Thats all well and fine but DA is generic fantasy.  It is what it is and changing it is only going to make it worse.  As a consumer I will take issue with ridiculous changes, personally.

The issue at hand being that Bioware doesn't want the DA franchise to be generic fantasy.

When you paint yourself into a corner like DA did with generic fantasy then more often than not trying to get out is going to make things worse.  I'm not saying generic fantasy is inherently bad.  I honestly think that generic fantasy is done poorly 90% of the time so when someone does it right I think they have a market like DA:O has shown. 

They should start a new franchise if they want to get out of that box they are in and still succeed.  My opinion of course but all i have to go on is people's disdain and sales which is a pretty good indicator.

[oldmansavage]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

oldmansavage wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So why should Bioware use what's been used many times over instead of making elves what they want them to look like in their game that takes place in a different universe?

If they want to be so original then they need to drop elves and dwarves altogether and come up with their own race like the qunari, otherwise its just a hack job.

Oh sure, and then the forums will fill to bursting with people who are upset that elves and dwarves are gone. They'd be saying that it is now the new Mass Effect set in a fantasy world. 

Apparently elves and dwarves automatically make something "generic fantasy"?

For the most part yes.  Especially when you add in medieval themes, dragons, swords and sorcery etc etc etc.

[Well]

Zanallen wrote...

Well wrote...

I know.What I have read on Norse myth they do look like Humans.

Elves don't exist and their lore has been mixed and merged a ridiculous number of times over the centuries. Hell, the little tinkerers in Santa's workshop are also elves. Santa is no doubt more widely known than Norse mythology. Bioware should therefore make the elves like those in the workshop.

Really?Elves don't?What part of Norse myths didn't you understand?

[Zanallen]

oldmansavage wrote...

When you paint yourself into a corner like DA did with generic fantasy then more often than not trying to get out is going to make things worse.  I'm not saying generic fantasy is inherently bad.  I honestly think that generic fantasy is done poorly 90% of the time so when someone does it right I think they have a market like DA:O has shown. 

They should start a new franchise if they want to get out of that box they are in and still succeed.  My opinion of course but all i have to go on is people's disdain and sales which is a pretty good indicator.

Bioware doesn't have the resourced to create another franchise right now. And why should they? DA is theirs and they can do wth it as they please. And sales are a terrible indicator of the majority opinion on art direction. Sales are determined by a vast number of factors, art direction being only one of such and completely subjective even within itself seeing as how some like the qunari but hate the elves and darkspawn and some like the qunari and elves but hate the darkspawn and some like all three and some hate all three.

[Zanallen]

Well wrote...

Really?Elves don't?What part of Norse myths didn't you understand?

The part where you feel that the DA2 elf designs should follow their designs in Norse mythology. Hence the second part of my comment about Santa and his elven slaves.

[Satyricon331]

Zanallen wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
I don't believe it is our place to decide what is or isn't broken and what Bioware should spend resources on.

I don't think the criticisms of the elf design in DA2 are any less legitimate than your criticism of DAO's skills as "useless."

Criticism is fine. Saying that Bioware should spend its time doing other things is a little presumptuous. Also, interesting that you chose the topic where I suggest that Bioware bring back skills after cutting them.

You see, it works like this. I feel that the DA:O skills could have been revamped for more use. Bioware decided instead to cut them entirely. I don't begrudge them that fact and I don't think they should have done otherwise. It isn't my place to tell them how to do their jobs. However, I can ask for them to bring skills back while suggesting possible changes to make the system more worthwhile.

I really can't see the point you're trying to make here.  I've read it several times and I can't see your point.  People call the elves ugly, you call the DAO skills useless; people want a better version of DAO elves, you want a better version of DAO skills; people want better-looking elves, you want more worthwhile skills.  Yet you're objecting to someone who simply wondered whether changes in DA2 were an overreaction, apparently drawing some distinction between uselessness and brokenness.  

Suggesting BW makes improvements is no different than suggesting they allocate resources to that issue.  They aren't made of infinite time or money, so it has to come from somewhere.  I don't have a huge vested interest in defending tmp7704, though, so I'm not sure why I'm replying.  I just dislike faux moralizing, I guess.

[oldmansavage]

Zanallen wrote...

oldmansavage wrote...

When you paint yourself into a corner like DA did with generic fantasy then more often than not trying to get out is going to make things worse.  I'm not saying generic fantasy is inherently bad.  I honestly think that generic fantasy is done poorly 90% of the time so when someone does it right I think they have a market like DA:O has shown. 

They should start a new franchise if they want to get out of that box they are in and still succeed.  My opinion of course but all i have to go on is people's disdain and sales which is a pretty good indicator.

Bioware doesn't have the resourced to create another franchise right now. And why should they? DA is theirs and they can do wth it as they please. And sales are a terrible indicator of the majority opinion on art direction. Sales are determined by a vast number of factors, art direction being only one of such and completely subjective even within itself seeing as how some like the qunari but hate the elves and darkspawn and some like the qunari and elves but hate the darkspawn and some like all three and some hate all three.

You are correct about the sales part being directly correlated to the art design.  Elves looking odd would definatley not keep me from purchasing the game in retrospect if the other issues were to my liking.  I mispoke, but to me personally the elf redesign falls into the change for the sake of change like so many of the other issues associated with DA:2.

Modifié par oldmansavage, 09 juin 2011 - 04:19 .