50 réponses à ce sujet

[Martin the Warrior]

I hear ya, OP. You don't need to understand something to whine about it, which makes it easy for people who don't know squat about what goes into writing and developing video games to complain about them. One major problem with the nature of internet forums is that since you're looking at a screen showing only a username, an avatar and a post, it's easy to forget that there are people on the other end of that screen. Trolls and flamers thrive in anonymity.

Edit:

colata wrote...

As I am not casual gamer, I expected...more from ME series.

I saw ME1 and great concept art, and I saw potential.

Now
that I know ME is removing inven. oversimplifying removing details from
maps, storyline, plot, .... It just didn't live up to what I expected
bioware is capable of....

I thought they could make it far better but they just messed it up in some sense...getting simple as hell and easy as hell......

I just expected more....they seems to deliberately mess it up....

Personally, I take a casual attitude towards my hardcore games (which means I play Mass Effect because I think it's fun, not to show off any kind of "1337 skillz"). Defining yourself as a hardcore gamer doesn't make you the ultimate authority on what constitutes a good game. RPG stands for Role-Playing Game, not Complicated Numbers, Enormous Inventories and Driving Across Mostly Empty Maps for Hours game. I don't necessarily mind those things, but they're not that important. The most essential element of an RPG is the ability to play as the main character of a story that takes place inside the world of the game. Granted, this is an element in a lot of other game genres too, but story tends to take a more prominent role in RPGs than it does in most other genres, and many RPGs (like Mass Effect) allow the player to affect the outcome of the game's story. And I know that the main quest storyline of ME2 was rather straightforward, but on the flip side, the Loyalty Missions were some of the best-written sidequests I've ever played. I also know from experience that the middle part of a planned trilogy is often the most difficult part to write because you've already begun the story and you can't end it yet, so it can be hard to figure out exactly what to do in between.

Modifié par Martin the Warrior, 08 juin 2011 - 02:31 .

[Mann42]

HTTP 404 wrote...

don't forget, that they work insane amount of hours to meet "productivity" which probably is against labor laws in the US.  On top of that, game developers don't have the most stabiliest jobs, one botched games and it could mean their job.

I honestly do not get why people get angry about a video game.  if it really isn't that great move on to other video games. 

I do not envy their workload
I do not envy their "due dates"
I do not envy the flak from their fans
I do not envy their job security

The only person I am jealous of in bioware is Chris Priestly...that guy is god.

Pretty much this. Now combine that with the fact that the average (not the leads or the BW guys generally posting here) BW employee is probably (conjecture, using industry standards) making under $50k a year with no overtime, despite working 80 hours a week, and you've pretty much nailed it.

Oh, and in the U.S., it's not against labor laws if you're salary. Making someone salary allows you to legally ride them until the job is done and pay them a flat rate in most states, which is why I've never met a U.S. studio that doesn't have nice long stretches of 60 to 80  hour a week for months death crunch.

Not sure what the laws are like in Edmonton, Canada, though (which is where I think Mass Effect is primarily made). 

Modifié par nexworks, 08 juin 2011 - 02:17 .

[colata]

Poor work condition, though I feel completely sorry for it but it doesn't make up for poor outcome of work....


that they could have done better and showed potential before...


Why mess up now? if they succeeded before and by which they showed potential...

Modifié par colata, 08 juin 2011 - 02:19 .

[msantos]

Tripedius wrote...


But the average BW employee will probably still do much better than the average joe. By a very large margine. Maybe they won't be milionairs but I still recon the do far more than 100K a year.

nexworks nailed it pretty good. 

Would the average Joe or most of the whining regulars in this forum be able to put together a concept and series like Mass Effect?  How many in the gaming and commercial development communities woiuld be able to produce anything close to what the Mass Effect team in Edmonton and Montreal have delivered thus far?

As far as these Bioware teams are concerned, hard work and technical competency is the root of their success and they deserve every bit of it. For the vast majority of them, It came at the cost of studying hard, working long hours and over weekends which is precisely what many of the the average Joes out there dont feel like doing.

Cheers

[Thompson family]

Re: OP

A nice thought, but never, never confuse noise with heat.

Internet forums are rife with crybabies. The static they put out is part of the price you pay to get some usable nuggets and the occasional well-thought out post that actually has a point. There are some RPG elitest, for instance, who make one good post every once in a while. They have more influence than the authors of literally hundreds -- probably more than a thousand by now -- of other threads screeching about the same thing.

Somebody did a volunteer poll, which isn't very statistically valid but which does show general trends at least. If the forum was all that upset about the directions being taken, it would show. As it is, 77 percent of those responding said they were planning to get ME3 as soon as it came out the last time I checked. Add in the people who said they's wait to see what the forum said about it, and you're somewhere in the 90s in terms of percentages.

The truth is that there are more people pleased by the changes between ME1 than ME2 than not, and the members who have valid arguments to make are consistently undermined by the insults terms such as "dumbed down" that so many people of a like mind insist upon using.

It's a lot like politics. There are very conservative Republicans and very liberal Democrats who consider themselves to be the "real" members of the party and everybody else is just playing at it.The party should be loyal to them, they argue. If either party were exclusively loyal to these hard core "fans," it would never win another election again.

[colata]

I am just stating the most objective POV I can get out of myself.

Watering down the opposite opinion by talking about work condition and work load doesn't count as counter opinion.

It almost look like you're not trying to reason, but trying to oppress in illegitimate way.

Just think about what I say...


I am not trying to troll but take out my opinion on the game from experienced....gamer's point of view.



Come on.... don't trolll with watering down technique...

Modifié par colata, 08 juin 2011 - 02:26 .

[sp0ck 06]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the reason alot of people have alot of visions of what ME is is because it started as a RPG and ended as a shooter. the inconsistency of the game is the biggest reason why you see complaints. its easy to complain about vehicles with the mako, vs the hammerhead. its easy to complain about exploration with driving the mako vs planet scanning. if ME3 ended in the same vein that ME1 started, you wouldnt have so many people with different perspectives on what ME3 should or shouldnt be.

if bioware didnt invest so much knowledge and depth into their games, they wouldnt have alot of problems as well. ME1 is filled to the top with intellect, everything about ME1 simply makes sense in a sci fi universe. ME2 on the other hand was made without brains. lots of plot holes, lore retcons and what not.

Lol, so using omni gel to hack computers makes lots of sense.  Or how about every random little planet just happening to have identical bases with identical mercs, just waiting around for Shep to shoot them.  Or being able to instantly convert weapons armor ammo into the magic omni gel while on a mission.  Or the fact that Shepard,  trained soldier, is unable to fire his weapons until he points skill points into the weapon tree.  Or the Mako's strange ability to thwart physics

Come on man, take off your rosy glasses.  I'm so tired of hearing about how sublime ME1 was.  It was great but it had serious flaws, and saying "everything about ME1 simply makes sense in a sci fi universe" but "ME2 was made without brains" is a flat out lie.  

[Il Divo]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the reason alot of people have alot of visions of what ME is is because it started as a RPG and ended as a shooter. the inconsistency of the game is the biggest reason why you see complaints. its easy to complain about vehicles with the mako, vs the hammerhead. its easy to complain about exploration with driving the mako vs planet scanning. if ME3 ended in the same vein that ME1 started, you wouldnt have so many people with different perspectives on what ME3 should or shouldnt be.

Or we still would have different perspectives. People will always find the smallest details to complain about. Mass  Effect 2 could have been a clone of its predecessor and we'd have crying that they are "too similar". 

if bioware didnt invest so much knowledge and depth into their games, they wouldnt have alot of problems as well. ME1 is filled to the top with intellect, everything about ME1 simply makes sense in a sci fi universe. ME2 on the other hand was made without brains. lots of plot holes, lore retcons and what not.

I did not feel my intelligence challenged at any point while playing Mass Effect 1. I think you are giving the game far too much credit. 

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 juin 2011 - 02:38 .

[colata]

Much of heat dev is taking cos of bad reputation is due to dev's faulty decisions.

Lack of details and depth and oversimplification can't be justified with games of any genre, except for really special cases like meat boy kind of game...

Criticism overall dev is takin is largely due to their own poor design choice or laziness or trying to get clever with customers.

It almost look like they messes it up and trying to cover it up with everything....
At least it looks that way to me....


ok enough rant thx. k

[Bolboreta]

I don't envy them either.

- They have to work too many hours, too many days a week, with pressure, horrible due dates and fan raging all the time.

- They don't have the option to act freely: if they decided a character is not worthy, or they wanted a character to die, they would have to face hundreds of mad fans. They need to be careful with the "screen time" they give to each character, specially if they're LIs, because LI fans would rage if their LI is killed, of if s/he gets less dialogue options or missions than others. Then, fans would start to yell things as "favoritism", "unfair", "blowing up things", etc.

- Bioware guys know that if they make someone happy, immediately another one will be mad at them. So, whatever they do, someone is going to complain. It's a very unpleasant job to do.

Well, I'm probably going to dislike some things, but if I like the most of them (as I'm sure I'm going to do), I will be happy enough. I totally support them, because they've already won that support.

[MDT1]

Yet another thread that complains about complainers...
Fanrage is their choice.
I mean deciding to open their games for a wider audience is a valid decision from a developer/publisher, but it also inevitably provokes reactions from those who feel left behind.

Also I know no job that has absolutly no let downs, but if their unhappy I would just advise to choose a different one.

Modifié par MDT1, 08 juin 2011 - 03:52 .

[Turran]

Soooo, let me guess this straight, no one is allowed to critisise something? Bioware do amazing things, but they also know that listening to their audiance and fans is also a big bonus.

If they showed a gameplay part where Shepard was featuring a very small skirt and nipple-rings as the main armor for both Male and Female characters, would you not say something?

[Travie]

The Mass Effect team has shown that they respond well to fan feedback, (even bad feedback, like removing the mako instead of fixing it), so kudos to them.

[Ghost Warrior]

Well,these forums are the reason for many changes,like return of grenades. Yes,some people go too far,but most of the time that's because they want this game to be the best possible.
Of course,we don't all have the same vision of what "the best" is.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 08 juin 2011 - 05:24 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

HTTP 404 wrote...

nexworks wrote...

Tripedius wrote...

But the average BW employee will probably still do much better than the average joe. By a very large margine. Maybe they won't be milionairs but I still recon the do far more than 100K a year.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. The average Bioware employee making more than 100k a year?

No. You really have no concept of game development business realities, do you?

don't forget, that they work insane amount of hours to meet "productivity" which probably is against labor laws in the US.  On top of that, game developers don't have the most stabiliest jobs, one botched games and it could mean their job.

I honestly do not get why people get angry about a video game.  if it really isn't that great move on to other video games. 

I do not envy their workload
I do not envy their "due dates"
I do not envy the flak from their fans
I do not envy their job security

The only person I am jealous of in bioware is Chris Priestly...that guy is god.

^ They can solve the labor laws by doing what Amazon does just say it's mandatory, you get paid more, and if you don't show up don't come back in tomarrow cuz you'll be fired! And if you try to say something to someone on it guess what your pass won't work and you can't get into your job either!

[The Spamming Troll]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the reason alot of people have alot of visions of what ME is is because it started as a RPG and ended as a shooter. the inconsistency of the game is the biggest reason why you see complaints. its easy to complain about vehicles with the mako, vs the hammerhead. its easy to complain about exploration with driving the mako vs planet scanning. if ME3 ended in the same vein that ME1 started, you wouldnt have so many people with different perspectives on what ME3 should or shouldnt be.

if bioware didnt invest so much knowledge and depth into their games, they wouldnt have alot of problems as well. ME1 is filled to the top with intellect, everything about ME1 simply makes sense in a sci fi universe. ME2 on the other hand was made without brains. lots of plot holes, lore retcons and what not.

Lol, so using omni gel to hack computers makes lots of sense.  Or how about every random little planet just happening to have identical bases with identical mercs, just waiting around for Shep to shoot them.  Or being able to instantly convert weapons armor ammo into the magic omni gel while on a mission.  Or the fact that Shepard,  trained soldier, is unable to fire his weapons until he points skill points into the weapon tree.  Or the Mako's strange ability to thwart physics

Come on man, take off your rosy glasses.  I'm so tired of hearing about how sublime ME1 was.  It was great but it had serious flaws, and saying "everything about ME1 simply makes sense in a sci fi universe" but "ME2 was made without brains" is a flat out lie.  

ok, so omnigel wasnt the greastest implementation in ME1, youve got me there. but  your other points are features to any game labeling itself an RPG, or just a videgame. what game doesnt have "mercs waiting in a room to shoot you" or what RPG doesnt have you level up your abilities? maybe not everything about ME1 was perfect but ME2 atlast had a base to stand on with what was established in ME1, and it still manageed to fudge up itself, and the already existing universe.

but i didnt mean to draw so much attention to what i saw lacking in ME2. just wanted to point out that bioware created its own problem with ME3 by making ME1 and ME2 such different games. i dont want ME3 to be a RPG/shooter hybrid so much as i want a ME1/ME2 hybrid.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 08 juin 2011 - 04:12 .

[ShadowSplicer]

I think they'll hit it just right, I prefer the Mass Effect 2 approach on gameplay to Mass Effect one's but I still loved the combat in the first. I just believe that the second's simply worked better. I'm sure Mass Effect 3 will be a perfect blend between the two, and hopefully be implemented somewhat in any future installments in the Mass Effect universe.

(I really want similar gameplay in the future of Mass Effect, not an MMO or an RTS)

Modifié par ShadowSplicer, 08 juin 2011 - 04:34 .

[colata]

The most profound problem dev is making is they seem to try their best to give notion that they didn't know what will happen with ****** lazy game and look naive and innocent.

Cmon, bioware, are there no gamers with various genre experience in dev team?

Any gamers with various genre experience would notice the wrongs with ME2 without much difficulties.



****** bad level design,
Not so good character animation/ boring as hell
Not really interesting enough combat, repetition of spamming small amount of skills
very repetitive and predictable A.I. not challenging (no fear of getting killed but annoying repetitive combat)
complete lack of detail in maps and quest storyline
Complete removal of customization


If they focused on deepening RPG element, I could forget, kind of shallow and weak combat mechanics and poor level design, A.I.

But, now they all abandoned almost all the RPG and going outright action adventure, they should make it right

or ME is just simple weak storylined game with weak combat experience.

oh, I know cos I am FPS fanatic, what combat feels relatively real and intense, and throwing you off the chair, there are far better games that do this.

[Hatchetman77]

TSC_1 wrote...

I'm actually pretty danged happy with what I've seen so far. My only concerns are about things that Bioware have been silent on, and I'm sure that they'll release details on them soon. They're doing a fine job.

Me too.  I give BioWare **** about DA2 as often as I can but ME3 is looking pretty sweet.

[Hurbster]

But any more DLC like the first DA2 DLC ......

Modifié par Hurbster, 08 juin 2011 - 10:02 .

[colata]

2 post.

Modifié par colata, 08 juin 2011 - 10:07 .

[Aimi]

Il Divo wrote...

I did not feel my intelligence challenged at any point while playing Mass Effect 1. I think you are giving the game far too much credit. 

Mine was definitely challenged: I could never figure out how Tali got to the Citadel with information on the Eden Prime attack before it actually happened.

[colata]

So, what others are saying is this is the very limitation of current bioware?
It's all they got? Definitely bioware is not the bioware it used to be.
Alrighty, then, they are just 2nd grade dev, and some of you guys here confirmed it.


They just feel very rigid and limited, it's not good action game they wanna be at all.
and dev still seem to not get it.{smilie}

[ChristianSoldier]

im glad so far with ME3. hardcore RPG fans need to stfu and move on.